Can religion coexist with a communist state?

As a supporter of the Sudanese Communist Party (الحزب الشيوعي السوداني), we believe in communist principles, but reject Lenin's idea of state atheism. In fact we believe god plays an important role in society. Do you agree?

I believe religion can coexist with the socialism and communism, but it should neither be sponsered by the state nor should it be used as a tool to control the people.

Hey, welcome to the forum comrade! I don't think we've ever had a member from Sudan before. Personally, I pretty much agree with Katjuscha1917's position.

Today in the former Soviet Union, there are virtually no communist parties that consider a battle against religion necessary. In fact, many consider the state's effort to suppress religion to have been one of the biggest blunders Soviet authorities ever made. Some parties even point to the similarities between religious documents such as the Ten Commandments and communist ones like the Codex of the Builders of Communism.

I'm not fond of religion in any form. But I would say yes, AS LONG AS:

1) No religion is sponsored or supported by the state
2) All churches/temples/religious organizations are taxed (I would prefer to see a very heavy rate of 50-60% so as to discourage the total number of such organizations)
3) Full toleration of each and every religion (This way, bigger religion can't bully smaller ones out of existence, so that there can never be one monolithic religion to become an enemy of the state)
4) No religious schools (The harm that such institutions do is obvious)

Yes, as long as it's not a reactionary form of that faith. That's really the be-all and end-all of it as far as Marxists are concerned. Individual ones might want to be more punitive. As a religious communist myself (Christian), I think they're misguided.

But the only restriction we all would agree on is punishing defenders of exploitation who hide behind the church. Based on scripture, Jesus, or I'm guessing Isa for you, would agree.

That brings up an interesting question for Sudan2000:

Is Sudan largely Christian? Perhaps of the Coptic or Nestorian variety? From the Arabic looking script in your signature, I'm guessing the country may be split among Christianity and Islam?

Comrade Gulper wrote:

Is Sudan largely Christian? Perhaps of the Coptic or Nestorian variety? From the Arabic looking script in your signature, I'm guessing the country may be split among Christianity and Islam?

South Sudan is mostly Christian, largely Roman Catholic or Protestant (Episcopalian or Presbyterian). Sudan itself is mostly Muslim (split between Sufi and Salafi forms of Sunni Islam), with a heavy Christian (mostly Oriental Orthodox; Coptic, Ethiopian, Eritrean) minority.

Nestorians are pretty rare outside of ethnic Assyrians. Copts are rare outside of ethnic Egyptians, though yeah, they exist in large numbers in Khartoum.

soviet78 wrote:

Hey, welcome to the forum comrade! I don't think we've ever had a member from Sudan before. Personally, I pretty much agree with Katjuscha1917's position.

Today in the former Soviet Union, there are virtually no communist parties that consider a battle against religion necessary. In fact, many consider the state's effort to suppress religion to have been one of the biggest blunders Soviet authorities ever made. Some parties even point to the similarities between religious documents such as the Ten Commandments and communist ones like the Codex of the Builders of Communism.

Thank you very much. Very well written opinion

i don't know what communism is exactly so you'll need to tell me if I'm wrong here, but I thought that to be a communist you need to believe in the materialist conception of history, applied both to human history and natural history. If you believe in a naturalistic theory of all things from the beginning of time then you do not believe in the supernatural. That would exclude any supernatural entity (such as the monotheistic God of the false religion of the jews, the muslims, and various protestant sects which bear no relation to christianity, as the only true church is the church of christ, ie., the roman catholic church) from communism. Therefore, one cannot be a communist and religious at the same time, as the one requires atheism and the other requires belief in a supernatural entity.

Well, if communism means holding all goods in common, sharing all resources, and minting no coinage, then the early Christian communities would have certainly qualified as such.

The Materialist conception of history came many centuries afterward (although, in some respects, dimly pioneered by Epicurus).

You can graft the two together, as Marx and Lenin surely did, but even I recognize that you don't necessarily have to.

A society where truly democratic principles ally with communist principles in an environment where harmful superstitions are banished to the "dustbin of history" is surely best.

ok, if that is communism then I would agree that religion can coexist with it.

Comrade Gulper wrote:

That brings up an interesting question for Sudan2000:

Is Sudan largely Christian? Perhaps of the Coptic or Nestorian variety? From the Arabic looking script in your signature, I'm guessing the country may be split among Christianity and Islam?

North Sudan is predominantly muslim (nearly 97 percent follow islam), but has a significant christian minority.
South Sudan is probably christian majority, but according to to sources "There are conflicting reports as to the religious beliefs in South Sudan, though all agree that the three main religions are African Traditional Religion, Christianity and Islam." Christianity is most likely the most practiced religion there.

soviet78 wrote:

Today in the former Soviet Union, there are virtually no communist parties that consider a battle against religion necessary. In fact, many consider the state's effort to suppress religion to have been one of the biggest blunders Soviet authorities ever made. Some parties even point to the similarities between religious documents such as the Ten Commandments and communist ones like the Codex of the Builders of Communism.

I think it's important to keep things in perspective. The church today is not run by the same bunch of money mad pirates who were in charge a hundred years ago. It can't be an accident that both in the Russian Empire as well as in the Levant (if I may speak from a personal point of view) the church was under attack by great thinkers the likes of Lenin in the former and Gibran in the latter. Therefore I retrospectively support the Bolsheviks' decision to suppress religion back in the day.

People who think the Western world view defines Christianity are sadly mistaken and woefully deficient on history. The Bolsheviks knew full well that the Orthodox Church went hand in hand with the Russian Tsar, just as it did with the Emperor of the Romans in Byzantium. You really can't have one without the other. The Orthodox Church has been restored in Russia by Putin for a reason. It's biding its time to crown the next Tsar so that it can resume its destiny of serving the only kind of state it can ever truly accept or understand.

You guys are both right - Yeqon about the early 20th century Church's reactionary nature, Order about its biding its time today to restore the Czar. Having said that, I think that the Church that emerged in the Stalin and Brezhnev periods was very progressive, and consisted of genuine true believers - of the kind that are now sorely lacking.

The kinds of public anger visible in Russia today at a Church that takes over public parks or wallows in luxury gives us a pretty good understanding of why the 1920s campaign to stamp it didn't come out of nowhere (otherwise there would be no way that a few thousand Reds could suppress religion all across the country).

...

Also, Sudan2000, since you are from a Muslim-majority country, I thought you might find it interesting that in the USSR, Islam was treated with more respect than Orthodoxy, because it was never associated with the Czar and the Russian Imperial state.

In late 1917, Lenin issued his famous declaration to the Muslims of Russia:

Muslims of Russia…all you whose mosques and prayer houses have been destroyed, whose beliefs and customs have been trampled upon by the tsars and oppressors of Russia: your beliefs and practices, your national and cultural institutions are forever free and inviolate. Know that your rights, like those of all the peoples of Russia, are under the mighty protection of the revolution.

Also, although Islam too eventually faced repression in the 1920s and 1930s, the efforts against it declined earlier than they did in the case of Orthodoxy (for instance, even as Khrushchev ramped up his campaign against Orthodoxy in the 1960s, in Muslim-majority areas an official translation of the Qaran began to be published, and the state began supporting things like finances for the restoration of Mosques considered historical and cultural treasures). Still, the revolution did have a transformative effect on the kind of Islam being practiced in the Central Asian and Caucasian republics, as evidenced by the fact that even today, none of them have regressed to any Saudi-like barbarism. In other words, the Soviet project 'modernized' Islam, bringing it into the 20th century.

Sudan2000 wrote:

As a supporter of the Sudanese Communist Party (الحزب الشيوعي السوداني), we believe in communist principles, but reject Lenin's idea of state atheism. In fact we believe god plays an important role in society. Do you agree?

Can you give information on the relationship of the Communist Party in Sudan to the Christian and Muslim leaders? Are they somewhat supportive or mostly negative?

What is the official relationship of the Party to both religions? Can you send some links to articles?

Quote:

Can you give information on the relationship of the Communist Party in Sudan to the Christian and Muslim leaders? Are they somewhat supportive or mostly negative?

What is the official relationship of the Party to both religions? Can you send some links to articles?

The Communist Party in Sudan has had support from both Muslims and christian leaders. The most significant Christian leader was Joseph Garang (جوزيف قرنق) and the most significant Muslim leader was Abdul Khaliq Mahjub (عبد الخالق محجوب‎‎). Both of them unfortunately ended becoming a martyr for the SCP, both muslims and chrisitans gathered to sing this song in their honor (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LoqBJN1vMIw). At first many people from both religions had great support for the party, however capitalist countries funded a puppet to convince people communism is "evil". Sudan being a developing nation many people did not have access to many news sources besides Ground tv channels, thus manipulating the masses was easier. Today a minority are left (most recent election only recieved 0.30 percent of votes. ), good news is there seems to be growing support from the younger generation of both religions. For example many young people gathered to witness the funneral of former CPS leader Mohamed Ibrahim Nugud (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gE0F46LQNfE) the red flags in the video are the logo For the cps.

I actually think religion will have something of a renaissance. Fingers crossed for polytheistic shamanism.

Is that your new-found faith now Dags?

I would love to see a world ran by religion Christianity, but I doubt that would / could ever happen, God gave us free will to choose Him. I do think religion can coexist with communism.