Do you belive that there was holodomor

I believe it but I think the casualties are exaggerated by the capitalists

There was a famine but no Holodomor. Holodomor means murder by starvation.

There was no holodomor. Also polls require an "other" option.

We must be absolutely clear on definitions here. As Loz noted, that there was a famine is undeniable. That it was deliberate policy is an absolutely ridiculous assertion. I still find the best, most thoroughly sourced (using PRIMARY sources) account being Wheatcroft and Davies' Years of Hunger. This is one of those issues I absolutely hate to argue about, since it's difficult for me even to think about these tragic events and the lives lost without feeling sickness in my stomach. When it becomes clear that anti-communist academic and media hacks have absolutely no interest in the actual people who suffered, or in any objective analysis, but simply want to use this as another political point about 'the evils of communism', the cynical and cold inhumanity of their logic becomes apparent.

soviet78 wrote:

We must be absolutely clear on definitions here. As Loz noted, that there was a famine is undeniable. That it was deliberate policy is an absolutely ridiculous assertion. I still find the best, most thoroughly sourced (using PRIMARY sources) account being Wheatcroft and Davies' Years of Hunger. This is one of those issues I absolutely hate to argue about, since it's difficult for me even to think about these tragic events and the lives lost without feeling sickness in my stomach. When it becomes clear that anti-communist academic and media hacks have absolutely no interest in the actual people who suffered, or in any objective analysis, but simply want to use this as another political point about 'the evils of communism', the cynical and cold inhumanity of their logic becomes apparent.

It always amazes me how much they'll cry about the horrors of the famine in the USSR in the 30s, and yet, completely ignore the fact that many millions starve to death every single year under capitalism.

Holodomor its just an invented term by the conservatives and liberals who are trying to assimilate Nazism and Communism. Since the nazis had their own genocide the aim of those groups is to give one to the soviets in order to present both ideologies as equal in its madness from a western point of view. Of course, genocide didn't happened in Ukraine during the 30's, although one must recognize that the famine existed. This all idea of genocide belongs to the efforts of those who i pointed above who are desperately trying to banish communism (the communist parties respectively) from Europe as the nazism was more than sixty years ago. These efforts only reveals ignorance (political and historical) since you can't assimilate two ideologies that are completly opposites from one another.

Unless they do it themselves, eh?

No, I don't believe Stalin deliberately starved millions of Ukrainians to death.

The famine in the 30's era USSR was a lamentable tragedy. The cultivation of the perverse and offensive Holodomor accusations are something that truly disgusts me. These unsubstantiated claims are something that have to be challenged whenever possible. Its a sad situation that western governments, media outlets etc usually get away with such mud slinging and rewriting of history. Another depressing thing to think of is that such fuss is made about a myth which can be traced back to Hearst et al while in the west there is widespread poverty malnutrition and Doctors are legally allowed to cause the death of Patients by depriving them of food/I.V.'s etc.

Other:

Was there a famine? Certainly.

Was it a deliberate policy? I don't believe so.

For all the divisions in Leninism it's good to see we can at least find unity in some things.

lol
It does seem like a bit of a first.

What do you mean with "exagerated by capitalists"? i don't know, what I think is: there was something that was shut up by the Comunists with their "Gramscian Silent Revolution" when everybody just repeats the same lie about the Soviet Empire "was that good" but, it wasn't, they killed dissident people just because they didn't agree with their lies. why does the soviet generals threw away the documents, photos, videos and the evidences about that decade? they were hidding something suspicious -- well this don't surprises me, say what is convenient is so "comunist".

There was a famine which extended to parts of Russia as well. There is no evidence that proves that it was intentional genocide other than the propaganda museums you find in Kiev that were built during the Yushchenko years. Although the museums were more about remembrance of the dead, they had the names and pictures of soviet politicians they claimed carried out the genocide. What a prick low life scumbag that Yuschenko was.

I think rapid collectivization was part of the reason behind the famine because similar famines took place in China although there are other reasons that were particular to each country.

I put my answer there:

http://www.soviet-empire.com/ussr/viewtopic.php?f=110&t=54133&p=909794#p909794

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_ ... r_starving

Why deny the facts?

Stalinists trying to deny that there was a famine or that is was deliberate remind me of modern day fascists trying to deny the crimes of the Nazi regime.

It's funny to see that this part of the wikipedia article is called "Refusal to provide aid for starving" although the content exposes why the USSR provided plenty of aid. Once again you fail as a neocon troll. Why do you deny the facts, that's the big question.

Obviously this Wikipedia article used to be a 100% anti-communist article, but they couldn't manage to hide the truth, especially with good works such as Tauger's (see my link). So the anticommunist titles remained, but not the content.

http://www.infoukes.com/history/famine/

I'm not denying the truth, it is there for all to see; it was a deliberate & man-made famine.

I ask again why do you deny the facts and post links to far-right sources containing lies and no facts?

"In 1932, the Soviets increased the grain procurement quota for Ukraine by 44%" No, this is a lie. I will quote what I quoted on the other thread:

"The 1932 grain procurement quota, and the amount of grain actually collected, were both much smaller than those of any other year in the 1930s. The Central Committee lowered the planned procurement quota in a 6 May 1932 decree, which also permitted kolkhoz and peasant trade in grain at free market prices. To encourage increase production, this decree reduced grain procurement quotas for kolkhozy and edinolichniki from the 1931 quota of 22.4 million tons to 18.1 million tons; in partial compensation it raised the sovkhoz quota from 1.7 million tons to 2.5 million tons, for a total procurement quota of 20.6 million tons. Since the preliminary plan composed by the trade commissariat in December 1931 had set grain procurements at 29.5 million tons, the 6 MAY law actually reduced the procurement plan 30 percent. Subsequent decrees also reduced procurement quotas for most other agricultural products.
These decisions were a major policy shift from the preceeding years' attempt to eliminate market forces from the Soviet economy. After the May 1932 decree, Soviet leaders were optimistic that trade by kolkhozy and individual peasants would become as important for urban food supplies as procurements. Local officials and outside observers even saw the decree as a new NEP."

http://www.soviet-empire.com/ussr/viewtopic.php?f=110&t=54133&p=909794#p909794

I do believe that there was a famine caused by bad policies, which is known as Holodomor... I don't, however, believe that the regime intentionally starved its own people, or more specifically, starved the Ukrainians. It was an event which took place in Ukraine, Russia, Kazakhstan and Belarus... Bad policies, but not on purpose.

It's only holodomor if you accept it was a policy of genocide toward ethnic Ukrainians. All extant data shows that ethnic Russians suffered as bad as, if not worse than, Ukrainians in the famine (which stretched all the way into the central Asian republics).