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Finland's aid to the nazi holocaust

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Soviet cogitations: 2932
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 16 Aug 2006, 17:30
Party Bureaucrat
Post 09 Jun 2007, 13:42
Interesting article to understand the Finnish collaboration to aid the nazi's to exterminate the jews.

http://users.skynet.be/bk335835/finland.pdf

Finland and the Holocaust
William B. Cohen and Jörgen Svensson
Holocaust and Genocide Studies 1995 9(1):70-93



Also:
http://www.finlandforthought.net/2006/1 ... i-germany/
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Ideology transforms human beings into subjects, leading them to see themselves as self-determining agents when they are in fact shaped by ideological processes. L. Althusser
Soviet cogitations: 2845
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 21 Nov 2004, 20:31
Party Bureaucrat
Post 10 Jun 2007, 15:53
Quote:
Finland's aid to the nazi holocaust

Interesting article to understand the Finnish collaboration to aid the nazi's to exterminate the jews.


The first one is but a work of two people, not something coming from international scientific community. "Myth of co-belligerence". There is no myth of co-belligerence, it is a fact. All file talks about is "Finnish aggression and Finnish attack", but there is no mention of the Soviet bombings of major Finnish cities before Finland joined the war. Finland took in a number of jewish refugees, and Finland itself had thousands already living in the nation. Our jews were not persecuted, as a matter of fact, they were fighting in the Finnish army as any other soldiers; they even had field synagogues in which they could practice their religion properly, and a number were even awarded Iron Crosses by the Germans. The case of EIGHT, no more, no less, jews who were turned over to Gestapo is very unfortunate, but it had nothig to do with Finland's "collaboration to aid the nazi's to exterminate the jews". Also, they were not Finnish jews, but foreign. The Finnish goverment solved the situation for good in the year 2000 after formal and appropriate apologies to relevant people.

The other link on the other hand is something that is very known in Finland, and something that tries to paint ridiculous image of Finland. There was no "Finland's aid and collaboration to exterminate jews."

Quote:
"Finland carried out ethnic cleansing, for example, by allowing 3,000 Russians to starve to death."


Finland did not carry out "ethnic cleansigs" (do not think about Auschwitz, other German camps and all racial related crimes everytime you hear the
word ethnic cleansing. It was carried out by the United States among others, including the Soviet Union) in the the sense implied or allow Soviets to starve to death. Soviet people were interned in internment camps because they were enemy aliens, and they were not allowed to starve to death. People died because there was not enough food due to failed harvest in Finland.

Due to loss of fertilizer imports and fifth of arable land the food situation in Finland was difficult. Although some of the needed grain was bought from Germany, Finland was still on the brink of faminy at 1941. The loss of material relevant to food in East Karelia made the situation even more difficult.

The rations which were issued to the camps were standard rations for light workers which has been used in Finland for example in volunteer projects. What was not counted, was that with the shortage of food, also the low quality material were taken into use, with much lower nutritional values than normal stuff. The end result was increased deaths everywhere where that material had to be used, also in Finland proper. In statistics there can be seen increase in deaths in Finland

The question is, were those people murdered by intentionally giving them too little food. The answer to that question is no. So why did they die? The answer to that question is the low quality of the available foodstuff and missing options to improve those lacking rations. Why was the quality then so low? The simple answer to that is the bad harvest, which forced everybody to use for food even those stuff which would have in normal situation used for some other thing, like feeding the cattle, making a glue etc. Even Finns suffered from that in a situations similar like those inside the camps. The failed harvest did not only effect those Soviet citizens who were interned, but also those who were not.

My grandmother whom I visit regulary remembers this situation very well. Among other things, her mother had to use needles of pinophyta species trees as spices and to make tea and "coffee".

The work has been critized by scientific community of being ignorant of the overall research done on the subject during the last 40 years.

Arnstad on the other hand has been stated to grossly simplify the historical processes that led to the Continuation War and totally ignore the impact of the Winter War and the threat posed by the the Soviet Union agains't Finland.

My favorite so far in thing is the following:

http://www.hs.fi/english/artic.....5223440307

Quote:
According to Finnish historian Markku Jokisipilä, Arnstad presents notions that have been discussed in Finland since the 1960s. "I wonder if Arnstad is at all familiar with the debate that has taken place within the Finnish history research on the subject", Jokisipilä ponders.
"No, I am not", Arnstad admits.

"Jokisipilä concludes, in reference to the fact that Arnstad's comments are no different from those presented by the left in Finland in the 1960s and 1970s


Henrik Meinander, a well respected historian has written a sharply critical answer to Arnstad's claims that has been published by SvD.

http://www.svd.se/dynamiskt/brannpunkt/did_14193548.asp
Last edited by Carius on 12 Jun 2007, 14:15, edited 15 times in total.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 05 Nov 2005, 21:16
Komsomol
Post 10 Jun 2007, 19:24
How many threads do we have now on Finland in this Forum? I counted and this is the ninth one, and the 17th one if we count all threads with the Russo Finnish war mentioned. I don't mind if people want to discuss Finland but sometimes it seems that this is not the Great Patriotic War forum but the Finland lover and USSR lover go head to head forum.
"Its the ones who are subject to occupation that ultimately get to decide whether it was benicfial or not".

Myself.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 16 Aug 2006, 17:30
Party Bureaucrat
Post 12 Jun 2007, 14:19
Quote:
How many threads do we have now on Finland in this Forum? I counted and this is the ninth one, and the 17th one if we count all threads with the Russo Finnish war mentioned. I don't mind if people want to discuss Finland but sometimes it seems that this is not the Great Patriotic War forum but the Finland lover and USSR lover go head to head forum.


The problem is that people like Carius are denying the true character of Finland in WWII. That is why such articles of academics are really refreshing to know how deep the Finnish were into nazi-collaboration.
The article of Cohen & Svensson was really documentated thoroughly in every way, really an asset.

I have the same problem with nazi's in my country concerning the collaboration-movements, they also deny the ideological character of the active aid to the extermination of the jews. Carius is definitely not the only one and the Finnish state of denial is not that big of an exception.
Holocaust denial also plays forward the idea that jews and soviet soldiers died of lack of supplies, also this is nothing new. It is just a shame that some people still make up that kind of bs. Thousands of soviet soldiers died in the hands of the Finnish nazi-collaborators, we can't erase the fact.

Nothing more and nothing less.
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Ideology transforms human beings into subjects, leading them to see themselves as self-determining agents when they are in fact shaped by ideological processes. L. Althusser
Soviet cogitations: 2845
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 21 Nov 2004, 20:31
Party Bureaucrat
Post 12 Jun 2007, 14:35
Quote:
pseudo-nazi's like Carius.


Thank you for these kind lines. I hope you enjoy your insults.

Quote:
really refreshing


The criticism is also interesting.

By all means, read the article as much as you want. I don't mind. And when the day comes the scientific community says what these articles say then I will raise you a hat for bringing this forth, which oddly hasn't happened even though the first work you linked has been around for 12 years since 1995.

That you read something which is co-authored by two people working for university doesn't make it automatically a fact by any means. I can name several such cases, ranging from infamous secondhand smoke reports to works of David Irving.

Quote:
they also deny the ideological character of the active aid to the extermination of the jews.


I have not denied holocaust. Watch your words.

Quote:
Holocaust denial also plays forward the...


You obviously no idea what you are talking about. The failed harvest of 1941 in Finland which led to lack of food for a long time to come has nothing to with "denial".

Quote:
idea that jews


No jews were interned in Finland.

Quote:
and soviet soldiers died of lack of supplies


The thing is that they did. Soviets prisoners of war, interned Soviet citizens, those who were not interned and the Finnish people, all suffered from the lack of food.

The Finnish did not allow people to starve death intentionally. Before the Finnish forces retreated from the Soviet city of Petrozavodsk, the largest Soviet city in Finnish hands, in June 1944 (the food situation was solved by 1943), they distributed food for the city's people that was enough to keep themselves fed for two weeks. When the Soviet forces entered the city soon after that in June 28, they found its citizens well fed.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 04 Aug 2007, 23:25
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Komsomol
Post 04 Dec 2007, 19:16
There's no point in denying the Finnish involvement in nazism ans antisemitism. The Flemish did tose things too, and I will not deny that.
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"Communism is more about love for mankind than about politics."
Me
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 21 Nov 2004, 20:31
Party Bureaucrat
Post 05 Dec 2007, 08:32
Quote:
There's no point in denying the Finnish involvement in nazism ans antisemitism


Do not accuse me of "denying".

No one is denying the handover of eight foreign Jewish refugees in Finland. Finnish goverment has issued formal apology to relevant people for the handover of these eight particular Jewish refugees to Germans. The supposed "to have been Finnish master plan for Jews" is not the same thing. Some people can write about their ideas if they want, I can't stop the, but without any concretic evidence it will never be accepted by scientific community.

On November 6, 1942 eight foreign Jewish refugees were handed over to the Germans - out of more than 500 Jewish refugees who escaped to Finland and were granted asylum. The exact reason for handover of these eight particular people is not known, but nothing indicates that this was part of "plan for Jews of Finland" or that anti-Semitism from Finnish part played a part in it.

Finland itself had a Jewish population of 1,500 - they were not persecuted and anti-Semitic racial policies were not enforced. They were fighting in the war, working and living like any other people. Finnish Jews fighting in the war even had field synagogues on the front.

These three (the Swedish gentleman in particular who has received "quite" a reputation among scientific communities) most interesting persons are trying to push a theory about their so called "Finnish master plan for Jews in the country" in shadow of the handover of these eight particular foreign Jewish refugees, something that is not even remotely accepted by scientific communities.

"Suomessa on 1,500 juutalaista ja kaikki ovat kunnon miehiä ja naitsia jotka tekevät osansa maansa puolesta" (There are 1,500 Jews in Finland who are all decent men and women who are doing their part for their country). Suomi Toisessa Maailmansodassa (Finland in World War II) by Charles Leonard Lundin. K.J. Kummerus Jyväskylä.

Carl Gustaf Emil Mannerheim on Finnish Jews when Heinrich Himmler, Head of SS visited Finland - among other things in order to discuss possible "solution for Finnish Jew problem" - which was not mentioned again following Mannerheim's view of Finland's supposed "problem".
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 04 Aug 2007, 23:25
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Komsomol
Post 07 Dec 2007, 15:45
Fighting in the War? On whose side?
And actually you ARE denying the Finnish involvement in antisemitism.
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"Communism is more about love for mankind than about politics."
Me
Soviet cogitations: 2845
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 21 Nov 2004, 20:31
Party Bureaucrat
Post 08 Dec 2007, 17:46
Quote:
Fighting in the War?


Yes. If that comes a suprise you to it only shows your ignorance over the subject.

Quote:
On whose side?


They were serving in Finnish military. Those who did not fight in the war did their part on the home front and lived like any other people.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 30 Nov 2007, 08:37
Unperson
Post 09 Dec 2007, 09:54
Bravo Carius. I am a Soviet patriot, but what I can't stand is immature posters who try to use insults and ridiculous claims to cover up their own ignorance.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 02 Mar 2004, 15:19
Ideology: Other Leftist
Old Bolshevik
Post 09 Dec 2007, 11:15
What's necessary to understand is that history can't be looked at through ideological goggles.

If you were the Finnish government, you might not like the nazis. But you have two super powers (Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union) around you, hostile to each other and certainly interested in you. The balance for survival of your government (and this is every government's primary concern) cannot simply be as easy as choosing between good and evil. It is a matter of survival and when the USSR attacked in the winter war, it pretty much made Finland's choice very easy. Albeit the wrong choice in the end, that was something Finland couldn't know.

They did succeed in maintaining the Sovereignty of the Finnish government to well after the war was over.
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Fitzy wrote:
Yes, because I am poisoning them. They are my children.
Soviet cogitations: 2845
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 21 Nov 2004, 20:31
Party Bureaucrat
Post 09 Dec 2007, 17:36
Quote:
What's necessary to understand is that history can't be looked at through ideological goggles.


Right.

Technically Finland should have had one more choise - neutrality, but the Soviet Union did not accept Finland's neutrality. After Winter War Finland made steps to enter defensive military alliance with Sweden to protect both countries neutrality - nothing came of this as the Soviet Union put pressure on both countries not to enter such pact. The Soviet Union did not accept Finland's neutrality because the country was in her area of interest as agreed in the Molotob-Ribbentrop Pact. Neutrality was not possible and Allies did not keep their promises of support for Finland. The choise of doing nothing and bowing to the Soviet Union was out of the question. One small country that is isolated between two major powers, of which one has invaded you a while ago, weak and has no chance of staying neutral in the war does not have much choises.

Quote:
what I can't stand is immature posters who try to use insults


I have not insulted anyone. Ignorant means that someone is not familiar with the subject. That doesn't even remotely equal calling someone a nazi - me in this case.

Quote:
ridiculous claims to cover up their own ignorance.


There are no ridiculous claims from my part or ignorance over the subject. The only such claims come from the gentlemen who attempt to push their speculative theory of "Finnish master plan to exterminate Jews from the country" - without concretic evidence, which is why it is not accepted by scientific community and hence is nothing but their little theory.

There is no denial from my part. On November 6, 1942 eight foreign Jewish refugees were handed over to the Germans, although nothing indicates that this was part of "plan for Jews of Finland" or that anti-Semitism from Finnish part played a part in it. (Suomen juutalaisväestöstä ja -pakolaisista (About Finland's Jewish population and refugees), page 183, by Stéphane Bruchfeld & Paul A. Levine: Werner Söder, Helsinki.)

The fact remains that this case still leaved over 500 foreign Jewish refugees who were granted asylum, and Finland's population of 1,500 Jews - who were not persecuted, and anti-Semitic racial policies were not enforced. They were fighting in the war, working and living like any other people. Finnish Jews fighting in the war even had field synagogues on the front.

"Suomessa on 1,500 juutalaista ja kaikki ovat kunnon miehiä ja naitsia jotka tekevät osansa maansa puolesta" (There are 1,500 Jews in Finland who are all decent men and women who are doing their part for their country). Carl Gustaf Emil Mannerheim on Finnish Jews when Heinrich Himmler, Head of SS visited Finland - among other things in order to discuss possible "solution for Finnish Jew problem" - which was not mentioned again following Mannerheim's view of Finland's supposed "problem". (Suomi Toisessa Maailmansodassa (Finland in World War II) by Charles Leonard Lundin. K.J. Kummerus Jyväskylä)

That's as far as Finland's supposed "planned extermination of Jews" goes.
Soviet cogitations: 6887
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 30 Nov 2007, 08:37
Unperson
Post 10 Dec 2007, 02:42
Somewhat of a confusion here Carius, I'm applauding you for using facts. The insults I referred to were the ones directed at you
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Soviet cogitations: 542
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 31 Aug 2009, 07:21
Komsomol
Post 03 Sep 2009, 08:41
I saw this show on the "History Channel" a few months, ago. While it was interesting, the show did not cite very many sources, and I question the historical accuracy, of the show.

Link:http://www.history.com/encyclopedia.do?vendorId=FWNE.fw..ru086400.a#FWNE.fw..ru086400.a
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 13 Feb 2008, 15:25
Ideology: Other Leftist
Politburo
Post 03 Sep 2009, 09:37
The History Channel is notoriously bad at producing good quality documentaries.
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Soviet cogitations: 542
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 31 Aug 2009, 07:21
Komsomol
Post 07 Sep 2009, 06:49
Quote:
The History Channel is notoriously bad at producing good quality documentaries.


Anymore, there are very few good documentary film makers, at least not in America & Britain, these days. The filmakers tend to dilute the facts, and add drama, so that they can sell their films! Western journalist have been doing the exact same things. Documentary films by Western film makers and journalist are simply pushing glamour & Capitalist Propaganda!
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 13 Feb 2008, 15:25
Ideology: Other Leftist
Politburo
Post 07 Sep 2009, 09:56
The BBC made some good documentaries in the past. It was still pro-West/Capitalist of course, but did go to more trouble to produce documentaries which made a distinction between fact and opinion.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 16 Aug 2006, 17:30
Party Bureaucrat
Post 08 Nov 2009, 22:37
True, People's Century is still great material.
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Ideology transforms human beings into subjects, leading them to see themselves as self-determining agents when they are in fact shaped by ideological processes. L. Althusser
[+-]
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 19 Sep 2005, 13:48
Embalmed
Post 09 Nov 2009, 00:39
I'm still waiting for the BBC to release People's Century on dvd.

It's like everyone has forgotten it.
Now what is this…
Soviet cogitations: 9991
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 14 Jul 2008, 20:01
Ideology: Trotskyism
Embalmed
Post 09 Nov 2009, 06:09
What is People's Century?
~Signatures must be in english. This is an english-speaking forum~
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