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Are Communism and Islam diametrically opposed?

  Yes
41% 41% [ 26 ]
 
  No
50% 50% [ 32 ]
 
  Other. Explain
9% 9% [ 6 ]
 
Total votes: 64
Communism and Islam

Forum Commissar
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PostPosted: Thu 24 May 2007, 08:31
No. Islam has many ideas that are conducive to communism. The current atmosphere in the middle east isn't conducive to communism, but Islam is.
TRL, you're not my hero. - mabool
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Unperson
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PostPosted: Thu 24 May 2007, 08:38
The political system of which Islam preaches for is basically a form of communism/socialism. Every decision is to be made by "Shuras", gatherings or citizen councils if you will, and power is hugely decentralized. Well, I'm not going to go through every economic aspect because I'm too lazy to, but needless to say that Islam shares the same economical structure with Marxism, it's simply written in a different way.

"5 neighbours in all directions should have roof over their head and be able to eat and live properly."

"Don't take more than you need, give your surplus to those who don't have."

~~
 

Embalmed
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PostPosted: Thu 24 May 2007, 08:49
No more so than any other religion. It's contradictory in many parts. Isam also describes the necessity of the Caliphates. Christianity when you get down to the doctrine of christ should technically have no priests (at all). Christianity is literally against leaders. It's so impressive the way it's been perverted. The Qu'ran also preaches a form of corporal punishment that should be distasteful by today's standards. Islam does not preach redistribution, redistribution falls under the economic law of Shari'ah, you don't have redistribution, you have charity in the form of a small tax on wealth.

The same could be said of Islam. I find all religions to be interesting but when it comes down to it, they are all equally progressive. This doesn't mean that they don't have beautiful messages, and that their ideas weren't progressive for their time (and some of the ideas are still progressive.)

No Islam does not excite me, neither do other religions. The far left likes to view Islam the same way celebrities view Buddhism.
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PostPosted: Thu 24 May 2007, 08:52
Islam isn't special to me. If it were I would still be muslim wouldn't I?
This is more of a response to some rather uninformed people who try to claim that islam is somehow completely incompatable with communism.

Quote:
This doesn't mean that they don't have beautiful messages, and that their ideas weren't progressive for their time (and some of the ideas are still progressive.)


Exactly.
TRL, you're not my hero. - mabool
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PostPosted: Thu 24 May 2007, 08:56
Actually, the Caliphate is more of a guardian of the religion rather than a supreme leader.

The Caliphate is in other words the General Secretary of sorts :)
 

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PostPosted: Thu 24 May 2007, 09:57
Religion is people's opium (I don't know if that's the exact way Marx said it in english, but that's the french translation).

Religion is not fundamentaly bad, but because it gives an "absolute truth", it's a step toward intolerance : if you think your religion is absolutely right, well everybody who don't agree with you is wrong, and so you want to impose them your truth.
 

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PostPosted: Thu 24 May 2007, 09:59
Quote:
(I don't know if that's the exact way Marx said it in english, but that's the french translation).


Religion is the opiate of the Masses.<- English version.

Quote:
Religion is not fundamentaly bad, but because it gives an "absolute truth", it's a step toward intolerance : if you think your religion is absolutely right


Just as patriotism allows for nationalism (non-oppressed). Although I'm of the opinion that there is no such thing as a truth. Nothing is absolute, not even the laws of physics.
TRL, you're not my hero. - mabool
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Komsomol
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PostPosted: Thu 24 May 2007, 11:04
Any communists who reject the benefits of religion are essentially naive. Religion is a way to inspire the people to great achievements and humanitarian acts, and is often a great catalyst for positive social change. No religion is 'opposed' to socialism, and most ancient religious figures (esp. in the Abrahamic faiths) have had socialist ideas.

Muslims have the right to be Muslims, and no true communist would argue otherwise.
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PostPosted: Thu 24 May 2007, 11:10
I Don't reject religion's benefict, but I'm suspicious about the problems it rises
 

Komsomol
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PostPosted: Thu 24 May 2007, 14:29
Religion is a part of the human exsperience, communist are humanist so they should allow people to exspress thier humanity.
"Its the ones who are subject to occupation that ultimately get to decide whether it was benicfial or not".

Myself.
 

Embalmed
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PostPosted: Thu 24 May 2007, 18:28
About opium, people say "opiate of the masses" but Marx said "opium of the people" as a more accurate translation.

Anyway, I voted yes. There are many political aspects meant to fuse religion and state, which is bad. But all major religions have developed this so I can't really single out Islam except in saying that Muhammad knew that a strong religion would need to be fused with the state whereas Jesus, Buddha, ect weren't going for that.

And it does have some good ideas and it was basically progressive when it came about. Even today people rally around it as an anti-imperialist force, so...
 

Komsomol
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PostPosted: Thu 24 May 2007, 18:35
Quote:
Anyway, I voted yes. There are many political aspects meant to fuse religion and state, which is bad. But all major religions have developed this so I can't really single out Islam except in saying that Muhammad knew that a strong religion would need to be fused with the state whereas Jesus, Buddha, ect weren't going for that.

This came from the guy who stated:
Quote:
Zionism is a haven to jewish supremists but I haven't seen evidence that jewish supremism is integral to the movement; rather that preserving the jewish nationality and their "chosen land" is needed. THe problem is when you tack on "at all costs" as the Isreali government obviously has. A lot of people in Isreal are very displeased with their government in many ways.

Seems like a bit of a double standard if you ask me.
"Its the ones who are subject to occupation that ultimately get to decide whether it was benicfial or not".

Myself.
 

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PostPosted: Fri 25 May 2007, 00:51
Depends what is meant...Is this referring to actual Islam or the typical American view of Islam or Islamic government or what?
"I'm not a fascist I'm a priest, fascists dress in black and tell people what to do while priests..."
 

Komsomol
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PostPosted: Fri 25 May 2007, 00:55
religion is a enemy of communism, talk like this is dangerous, on one hand islam and communism may have similar points, but since ANY religion is a enemy, this conversation or debate is void.
Never trust a computer you cant throw out a window.
 

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PostPosted: Fri 25 May 2007, 06:23
No this is very valid conversation. The majority of people are never going to abandon their religions. Which is why we need to be able to provide a sort of theological rationalization (what an oxymoron that is). If we can say, 'hey look your religion support us' we'll be far better off than normal, where the capitalists and fundementalists tell the religious that we are evil invaders hoping to destroy their religions.
TRL, you're not my hero. - mabool
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PostPosted: Fri 25 May 2007, 07:01
Sufi'ism is very condusive to Socialism & Communism. Wahabi'ism is very anti Socialist & anti communist and resembles something like Euro mercantilism. Islam has several schools of thought...

Quote:
religion is a enemy of communism


Not if it's confined to the household & kept away from society & politics.
 

Embalmed
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PostPosted: Fri 25 May 2007, 13:00
Quote:
Seems like a bit of a double standard if you ask me.


Not really. I've defended the nationalist/anti-imperialist aspect of both. I could criticize some aspects of the jewish religion if you wished but it's hardly related and the jewish religion hasn't been talked about at all, although Islam is currently being discussed.

Quote:
religion is a enemy of communism,


Religion in the government is an enemy of communism...
 

Unperson
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PostPosted: Fri 25 May 2007, 14:00
Quote:
Religion is people's opium


of course, ;)

religions only create violence.


Quote:
don't believe in a religion, I'm non-religious. I hate all religions
But I also believe that we can't force people to quit their religions... but we can educate them against such stuipid ideas.
I believe in Darwinism, even during the renaissance they opposed the develpoement of science because they[capitalists] knew if the people get to know about the truth, they wouldn't believe in religions, and so they wouldn't be able to cotrol them through religion. Capitalists use religion to make people more docile and easier to control...

P.S: when I was talking about renaissance I was mostly reffering to the time when they wanted to burn Galileo for his discoveries.


we must massacre them!! Image
 

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PostPosted: Fri 25 May 2007, 14:04
Quote:
even during the renaissance they opposed the develpoement of science because they[capitalists] knew if the people get to know about the truth,


Uh... WTF? The renaissance was during feudal times not capitalist times.
TRL, you're not my hero. - mabool
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PostPosted: Fri 25 May 2007, 14:33
Image

Quote:
Karl Marx on feudalism
Quite similar to the French revolutionaries, Karl Marx also used the term feudalism for political ends. In the nineteenth century, Marx described feudalism as the economic situation coming before the inevitable rise of capitalism. For Marx, what defined feudalism was that the power of the ruling class (the aristocracy) rested on their control of the farmable lands, leading to a class society based upon the exploitation of the peasants who farm these lands, typically under serfdom. “The hand-mill gives you society with the feudal lord; the steam-mill society with the industrial capitalist.” (The Poverty of Philosophy (1847), chapter 2). Marx thus considered feudalism with a purely economic model. Marxian theorists have been discussing feudalism for the past 150 years - an extensive and well known debate over feudalism and capitalism occurred between the noted Marxian economist Paul Sweezy and his British colleague Maurice Dobb.
 

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PostPosted: Fri 25 May 2007, 14:36
Quote:
Karl Marx on feudalism


How exactly does this prove I'm wrong?
TRL, you're not my hero. - mabool
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Music in general is looking for something new overall. - Les Claypool
 

Unperson
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PostPosted: Fri 25 May 2007, 20:29
read it

Quote:
For Marx, what defined feudalism was that the power of the ruling class (the aristocracy) rested on their control of the farmable lands, leading to a class society based upon the exploitation of the peasants who farm these lands, typically under serfdom.


In renaissance era & middle ages there was class differences.

Monarchs & rulers,knights, bishops etc...
on the other hand; serfs,workers, peasants and slaves etc...

Marx revised history and saw all these class struggles.

-little off-topic.


Quote:
religion is a enemy of communism...


That's correct.
 

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PostPosted: Fri 25 May 2007, 21:51
I believe that Islam, like all religion, is neutral. As Arif_moin said, you have the Progressive Sufis, on the other hand, you have the Reactionary, Anti-Communist Wahabiists.

Quote:
we must massacre them!!


Yeh, let's kill them all!11!! We may take the good with the bad, but at least we're da Good Guysâ„¢ [/sarcasm]
"They bizarrely take pride in the absense of AIDS from the country."
-- Harry Salmon, DPRK Critic.
 

Pioneer
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PostPosted: Sat 26 May 2007, 18:13
We as communists should completely reject Islam. Communism seeks the truth as oppossed to religion which is based on faith alone. If we are to bring truth and a scientific understanding to people then we must reject and opposse all forms of superstition.

Also look at all the reactionary crap in the Koran. On the issue of women to take just one example. What the Koran says on this issue and others is in complete opposition to what we are seeking to achieve.
 

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PostPosted: Sat 26 May 2007, 19:40
Quote:
On the issue of women to take just one example


So Islam says you have to dress modestly. It does NOT require the veil- the full body veil covering the face is the dress code for women in bedouin culture, not Islam. Speaking of which, Japanese ninjas covered their whole bodies from head to toe- except for the eyes, with plain jet black coloured clothing. But I don't see anyone making a big deal out of that.

The fact that it has been incorporated into Islam & made as a rule is the testament to the outreach & power of Wahabi fanatics, who were globally empowered by the capitalist West (ex: Al Sauds Saudi, Taliban Afghanistan- after the DRA fell).

Requiring modest dressing isin't something that's exclusive to Islam- the USSR had a dress code too, whether you like it or not. I highly doubt in the Soviet Union, a girl would be able to wear a skimpy mini & a sports bra with the inscriptions "$100", "touch me", "Stalin's b#$ch", "Lebed's ho" etc., either. Many museums, schools and other public places and even guided tours in the Soviet Union required a dress code, which kind of seemed a bit on the "harsh" side for me.

In the USSR, to attend a guided tour- I had to wear a sleeved shirt, slacks and shoes. Not just in Moscow even in Central Asian SSRs. I couldn't participate if I wore a printed Tee, a sleeveless shirt, tight torn jeans etc. The USSR didn't exactly demand "formal wear"- but there still had a dress code in many public places nevertheless.

And even in the West, women & men are required to adhere to a rather uptight & strict dress code while entering job fields- most notoriously the non IT (Info Tech) white collar fields. And in the so called "bastion of freedom" EU- in countries like France, CHILDREN who wear a headscarf out of their own choice are forcibly chucked out of the classroom because it violates "secular values" :lol: So don't give me lectures on how Islam restricts womenfolk. To show how "liberal" the West is, try wearing "inner city gangsta" clothing and try to check yourself into a hotel in your city's business centre and tell me the reception you get.

Point though is, wahabi fanatics do indeed treat women poorly, but so do fanatics in almost every religion / philosophy out there- Socialism included. In the Socialist world- take Ceaucescu's stance on women, for example.

Quote:
On the issue of women to take just one example.


WHat issues on women?

The fact that divorce is guaranteed just with repeating "talaq" thrice- whereas in other theologies this isin't even a possibility? How's about the fact that women were guaranteed entrepreneural rights...not to mention the right to remarriage.

Oh true evil!

Islam doesn't encourage women to become wage slaves & encourages them to take care of the household, what's so evil about this? This way, people wouldn't need to tax the economy for social services like free daycare centres, boarding schools, old age homes (parents of both the husband & the wife are taken care of by the wife), tutoring the child, quality family time etc.

Single working households (versus dual) aren't necessarily indicative of a backward system. A good chunk of DPRK runs this way too, and I can assure you the professional & social perks enjoyed by a North Korean woman is far superior to most countries in the world out there.

But if the woman doesn't choose marriage- she is free to pursue entrepreneurship. There was no mention of work or factory jobs in Islamic texts because factories & industrial wages didn't exist 1400 years ago.

But every non Wahabi hadith grants women the right to work, if she so chooses. Married women are discouraged from taking up work or a biz (if the spouse is making enough to sustain the household) but not banned. Two different things. Well, Socialist leaders like Nehru & Kim Il Sung also encouraged single working families, there's nothing archaic or feudal about that.

Given the challenges & perils Socialism faces today, the last thing we need is a Red Stormfront :lol: Confusing Wahabi'ism w/ Islam is like confusing Nazi skinheads w/ normal Germans.

In simple English...

Wahabi'ism : Islam as to Pol Pot : Communism.

Quote:
seeks the truth as oppossed to religion which is based on faith alone.


Communism, Socialism & Capitalism are socio-political doctrines. Religion is something that's something very personal to an individual. However, I will hold that theology shouldn't be allowed to manifest itself in politics.

As long as that's achieved, I don't see why we have to be so uptight about a group of folks who value their religion / culture etc.

Also, while Islam's (i.e. not Wahabi Islam) outlook on women may not be "perfect"- what can we brag about in modern cosmopolitan culture as far as women go?

So, I suppose "Free" women implies 10-12 year old preteens putting on makeup heavier than the armour plating of a T-72 MBT and dressing like prostitutes, thanks to advertising overkill :lol: How's about the fact that a good chunk of families are in utter dissaray in most modern, cosmopolitan societies, with divorce rates reaching as high as 50%, and adultery, neglecting the child etc., are "common incidents" that don't even attract a semi stiff criminal penalty :knife:

That's a pretty damned retarded system, as far as women go.

This sort of uneducated single track cultural chauvenism as seen in the post above, when assessing a philosophical doctrine that's different from one's own is the one of the reasons why North Korea doesnt allow most outsiders to interact w/ the locals.
 
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