Soviet-Empire.com U.S.S.R. and communism historical discussion.
[ Active ]
[ Login ]
Log-in to remove these advertisements.

WSWS leader "David North" the owner of $25M/year c

POST REPLY
User avatar
Soviet cogitations: 2693
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 01 Mar 2006, 08:59
Party Bureaucrat
Post 02 May 2007, 07:35
Interesting, apparently the WSWS leader "David North" is a capitalist whose company makes $25 million a year in revenues... this raises some interesting questions...

Hey SocialistJedi, does the party share any of the Grand River profits? Do the rank and file ever get to look at the party financial records? How much are your dues?


Quote:
A Tale of Two Men
By Joe Hargrave

Here is a story you might find interesting:

I know of two men. One of them is the leader of a small Trotskyist political party in the United States. He is known as David North. The other is the CEO of Grand River Printing & Imaging, a company that earns 25 million dollars a year according to its website. They call him David W. Green.

For nearly 30 years, Mr. North ran his political party and Mr. Green ran his business. Mr. North gave speeches about the exploitation of the working class. Mr. Green exploited his workers, deriving surplus value from their unpaid labor. Mr. North thundered against the corporations that dominate American political life. Mr. Green sought those corporations out as clients, and probably did lunch with some of their executives. Mr. North would talk about the disgusting climate of corporate greed that pervaded the American cultural atmosphere. Mr. Green helped actualize that corporate greed by printing advertisements to help them push their products on consumers.

Of course Mr. Green was no black-hearted tycoon. No, surely Mr. North would have to exempt from his tirades against the corporations that dominate American politics and exploit the entire world certain capitalist leaders who stood out as genuine pillars of their community. Why, Mr. Green had gone to great lengths to make his workers as comfortable as possible. He invested in their training and education, he included them as part of his "larger vision". But surely Mr. North, who understood Marxism very well, would point out the absence of democratic control of the workplace, or the usual separation of the worker from the instrument of production that is the requisite of capitalist production. After all, his party published in statement after statement that the aim of socialism was to create a democratic economy. Yet none of the reports on Grand River suggested anything about "democracy" or "worker ownership" - Mr. Green may have been a nice man who saw the value in keeping his work horses happy, but he was also a businessman. So surely, should Mr. Green and Mr. North ever meet one another, they would disagree on a great many things.

Unless, of course, they were the same man.

Could it be a case of multipule personality disorder? Not exactly. You see, David Green, alias David North, is a fraud. He is the biggest fraud to hit the socialist movement since James Robertson of the Sparticist Leauge or "Chairman" Bob Avakian of the Revolutionary Communist Party. He owns a multi-million dollar corporation, and the upper echelons of his political cult and members of their family occupy key executive positions.

The rank and file members of the party are completely unaware of the existence of North/Green's corporate empire, which includes Grand River Printing, Merhing Books, and who knows what else. They assume that the party sustains itself through the donations that it begs for on its website and at its conferences, as well as the regular contributions that members are expected to "pledge" every month. I was exempt from this particular requirement only after I reminded one of its leaders of the considerable amounts of money I had invested in my own local branch. How nice of them. I can only imagine the giddy internal glee that North/Green must have felt every time some naive sucker wrote the SEP a check for a few thousand dollars. To North/Green, and the other party leaders, such donations were in fact chump change.

I can also only begin to imagine the difficult decisions that had to be made on a daily basis, such as, "how little can we put into this whole socialist thing to keep it viable while we live in the lap of luxury?", and, "should I use a 50 dollar bill or a 100 dollar bill to do this next line of cocaine?" All kidding aside, anyone who is serious about building a revolutionary movement, and who also happened to own a multi-million dollar company, would invest the maximum amount of profits into the former.

What I mean to say is, I could accept the fact that North/Green exploits the labor-power of his workers if the surplus value created by their unpaid labor was being used to build a movement that would one day end all exploitation. The ends, as I generally believe, justify the means if the ends themselves are justified. But this is obviously not taking place. The SEP has full branches in three cities - LA, NY, and Detroit. With the profit margins we can assume a 25 million a year company is capable of, there should be a fully-staffed branch in every major city in the United States. There should be an SEP radio station, a public access program on television, etc., etc., etc. Those profits, in sum, should be used to promote the movement, to expose not tens of thousands but millions of people to socialism.

What could possibly account for a failure to do these things? There is only one inescapable conclusion - that North/Green and his cronies enjoy the good life more than they do the revolutionary life. And they enjoy that life at the expense of the wage-laborers they employ. To dance around these uncomfortable realities they invent all sorts of paternalistic schemes where they provide top quality education and training for their workers - while, of course, "keeping wages competitive". To read the website of Grand River Publishing & Imaging is to be sickened. Every line is infused with phony corporate enthusiasm and politeness, in order to impress the equally phony corporate clients looking to get their ads published and printed. Contrast that to what you normally read on the WSWS. How can these people sleep at night? They might respond like the fictional Renier Wolfcastle: "On top of piles of money with lots of beautiful ladies".

It seems that every other week brings some new revelation about this political cult that I could have only wished I had known earlier. I tell you these things so that you can avoid my mistakes.


http://community.livejournal.com/trotskyism/3890.html

New avatar for SocialistJedi:

Image
Image

"To know a thing you must study it." --Dagoth Ur
User avatar
Soviet cogitations: 2932
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 16 Aug 2006, 17:30
Party Bureaucrat
Post 02 May 2007, 12:39
I first want to see the proof that it his personal money and not the capital of his company. When it would be the capital of the firm, I don't see any problem. In capitalism you need capital to reproduce your goods, even communist propaganda ...
Image


Ideology transforms human beings into subjects, leading them to see themselves as self-determining agents when they are in fact shaped by ideological processes. L. Althusser
User avatar
Soviet cogitations: 2693
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 01 Mar 2006, 08:59
Party Bureaucrat
Post 02 May 2007, 18:37
Quote:
I first want to see the proof that it his personal money and not the capital of his company


A distinction, of course, that is solely at the discretion of the controlling interest of a given firm...


Image


But never mind about that, that is merely an issue of secondary importance (at least for the disgruntled Trot writing this piece...)
Image

"To know a thing you must study it." --Dagoth Ur
Soviet cogitations: 814
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 19 Dec 2005, 16:51
Komsomol
Post 02 May 2007, 23:02
Sooo...you're defending a guy who claims to be a Trot while operating a huge company under a false identity?
User avatar
Soviet cogitations: 1038
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 11 Jun 2006, 07:25
Party Member
Post 03 May 2007, 04:35
Can you really trust this information
Image

Homer: "You guys are commies? Then why am I seeing free markets?"
User avatar
Soviet cogitations: 2693
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 01 Mar 2006, 08:59
Party Bureaucrat
Post 03 May 2007, 05:07
Quote:
Can you really trust this information


I don't know, I keep waiting for SocialistJedi to say something, I guess he is busy looking at his porn,...


Here's the company website listing David W. Green as CEO:

http://www.grpinc.com/grandriver-people.html
Image

"To know a thing you must study it." --Dagoth Ur
User avatar
Soviet cogitations: 14444
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Sep 2006, 22:05
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Philosophized
Post 03 May 2007, 15:15
I wasn't going to reply to this at all, due to the fact that greggers has provided no evidence of the truth of this article. But then the thread didn't just die so I guess I have no choice to reply.

First off Greggers you haven't presented anything even approaching evidence. This Joe Hargrave doesn't even show how he connented the two. Hell he could have just posted pictures of the two and been done with it, if there were any validity to his claim.

Second, if the SEP is such a scam then why doesn't he raise this issue with the government. Using donations for any reason other than party activities would be highly illegal, and could lead to the dissolution of the Socialist Equality Party.

Third, he claims that they must be taking the money because of the lack of city offices. What he neglects to mention is that the SEP funds several SEP aligned student organizations, as well as pay all employees of the party, as well as maintain a treasury for political campaigns.

All in all this is a simple smear peice that contains little to no actual information.
Image
Soviet cogitations: 56
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 29 Nov 2004, 12:08
Pioneer
Post 03 May 2007, 15:34
User avatar
Soviet cogitations: 14444
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Sep 2006, 22:05
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Philosophized
Post 03 May 2007, 15:43
Key part there being 'ex-sep'. Ex-Trots are worse than ex-atheists. Always attacking their former comrades without restraint.

And he posted it on Myspace. Like you trust even a quarter of the shit you hear there.

With such qoutes as:

Quote:
Given that the SEP is a cult, I can't say I'm surprised in the least.


Quote:
A lot of partys give me the vibe of a pyramid scheme.


Quote:
Does seem that North has a better way to make money than having his minions hawk papers and DVD's, but I don't know about SEP culture, so I could be wrong.


So aside from being a cult member, a practioner of a pyramid scheme, and a minion, I think I'm doing pretty good.
Image
User avatar
Soviet cogitations: 14444
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Sep 2006, 22:05
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Philosophized
Post 03 May 2007, 17:59
And another thing:

Even if David North is David Green, it doesn't matter. Using capitalism to destroy capitalism goes straight to the heart of marxism. Hell Engels owned a factory and Marx most definately saw some of the profits from this factory.

As for this Grand River Printing & Imaging, it is listed as one of the best places to work in Michigan, not the hellhole that the writer implies it is. Another fact about GRP & I is that it is a private company not a corparation. GRP & I makes over $20 million a year and has 90 employees, if it were a corparation 20 million a year would be pathetic.

Overall, if David North is the CEO of GRP & I, and he is funneling capital into the worker's movement, all I've got to say is more power to him. Lenin took the Kaiser's assistance to get back to Russia even though they were enemies. If your enemy is foolish enough to help you kill them, don't complain.

Oh and the whole 'cult' thing just shows the extreme anti-trotskyist bias of the writer.
Image
Soviet cogitations: 7
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 04 May 2007, 01:17
New Comrade (Say hi & be nice to me!)
Post 04 May 2007, 05:43
Not only does David W. Green run Grand River Printing and Imaging (which generates $26mm+ per year in sales and no doubt keeps him and his wife Heather Green living comfortably from a company that no doubt was built scamming international "comrades" for money during fund drives, summer camps, etc., he also has created a fake martyr, Tom Henehan, who in an unguarded moment "North" seemed to confide in Chris Bailey that he himself ("North") bore responsibility for his death. From the Marxism Listserv from years ago:

One thing concerning these events I feel should be widely publicised
is the cynicism of Dave North concerning Tom Henehan. In the immediate
period after Healy's expulsion he told those of us leading the WRP
that he knew Henehan's death was not an SWP/FBI plot. He said that it
had been crazy for the Worker's League to have organised the youth
event Henehan was killed at in the area it did. He said he blamed
himself for Henehan's death.

Later I attended the meeting where the German ICFI section voted to
support North. I was trying to persuade them not to. I was astounded
when I was accused of betraying the memory of Tom Henehan by denying
he was killed by an SWP/FBI plot. When I pointed out that it was North
who had convinced the WRP leadership of this I was denounced as
producing "a foul slander" against North.

North now completely denied his earlier discussions with us and went
out of his way to pronounce Henehan as a martyr of the ICFI "betrayed
by the WRP".

Incidently, North, from the relative safety of Detroit, later acquired
a further martyr when another youth member of his organisation in Sri
Lanka faithfully carried out the crazy party line and engaged in a
courageous but suicidal confrontation with the JVP.

Supporting Dave North can be very dangerous!

Chris Bailey
User avatar
Soviet cogitations: 2693
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 01 Mar 2006, 08:59
Party Bureaucrat
Post 04 May 2007, 06:00
Quote:
Hell Engels owned a factory and Marx most definately saw some of the profits from this factory.


I thought you'd bring that up. That is an inappropriate analogy for three main reasons:

1. Engels never lied to his comrades or the world about who he really was or where his money came from, or where it was spent, did he?

2. Engels was not the Supreme Dear Leader of his party.

3. Engels was a genius whose immortal contributions are recognized across the sectarian divides of the Marxist left. "David North" is not.

Quote:
Lenin took the Kaiser's assistance to get back to Russia even though they were enemies.


So... the Kaiser let Lenin take a train once... what does that have to do with the situation?

Quote:
So aside from being a cult member, a practioner of a pyramid scheme, and a minion, I think I'm doing pretty good


What do you mean by "aside"?


Have you paid your dues yet, SocialistJedi?

Image
Image

"To know a thing you must study it." --Dagoth Ur
User avatar
Soviet cogitations: 14444
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Sep 2006, 22:05
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Philosophized
Post 04 May 2007, 14:55
Quote:
1. Engels never lied to his comrades or the world about who he really was or where his money came from, or where it was spent, did he?


David North has never said he wasn't ceo of a company.

Quote:
2. Engels was not the Supreme Dear Leader of his party.


Where'd you get that? David North is in no way the 'supreme dear leader'. I don't even know how you come up with some of this.

Quote:
3. Engels was a genius whose immortal contributions are recognized across the sectarian divides of the Marxist left. "David North" is not.


Never said he was a genius, he just happens to be right most of the time. 'immortal contributions' this from the person who gets pissed when anyone attempts to point out that stalin was the prime component of the dissolution of the USSR.

Quote:
So... the Kaiser let Lenin take a train once... what does that have to do with the situation?


You take help where you can get it. Doesn't matter who gives it, if it helps the movement overall.

Quote:
What do you mean by "aside"?




Quote:
Have you paid your dues yet, SocialistJedi?


There is no dues system. The party is free, although from those who are able they should donate, but is any other party different.
Image
Soviet cogitations: 216
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 27 Nov 2006, 19:28
Pioneer
Post 04 May 2007, 16:31
What is distinct in the political programme of qthe SEP in contrast with other american trotskyist organisations, SA, SWP, sparts etc?
“The question of the relationships between the party, which represents the proletariat as it should be, and the trade unions, which represent the proletariat as it is, is the most fundamental question of revolutionary Marxism.”
—Trotsky
Soviet cogitations: 7674
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 11 Nov 2004, 02:08
Embalmed
Post 04 May 2007, 18:51
SOURCES WHERE ARE THE fragging SOURCES?!

posting blogs arnt fragging sources FYI. You might as well go to the national inq. and go on a date with one of their reporters for 'inside informations'. Seriously, LIVEJ and MYSPACE are not sources of information for political organization insiders.

Before you start some bullshit slander like this, please do some of the following:
1) Provide a picture of both individuals to compare and contrast
2) Credible information
3) CREDIBLE INFORMATION
4) Take off your tinfoil hat.
Soviet cogitations: 7
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 04 May 2007, 01:17
New Comrade (Say hi & be nice to me!)
Post 04 May 2007, 20:14
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.poli ... d0b4d14c50

This is the original post that identified North as a CEO. EXHIBIT 2 is a link to a Crain's article that has a picture
of North/Green and his wife.

Note: SEPtic has not denied this. They just reply that
"Engels was also a capitalist" blah, blah, blah. Which
of course is not the point. The point is how democratically
can a political organization be run when the cult leader
is also running the company that generates all the money.

It's an OBVIOUS conflict of interest, in the same way it
would be a conflict of interest to have a guy working at
Goldman Sachs who also has his own Wall Street recruiting
firm.
User avatar
Soviet cogitations: 14444
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Sep 2006, 22:05
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Philosophized
Post 04 May 2007, 20:25
Quote:
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.politics.socialism.trotsky/browse_thread/thread/4c525cb9cc8d4ee2/55127fd0b4d14c50?hl=en#55127fd0b4d14c50


Real credible. He lists no sources.

Quote:
SEPtic has not denied this. They just reply that
"Engels was also a capitalist" blah, blah, blah. Which
of course is not the point.


It seems to very much be the point. Engels owned a factory, North, possibly, owns a printing company what's the difference? And Engels was not a capatalist, neither is David North they're just using the system against itself.

Quote:
cult leader


And you seem real unbiased when you call us a 'cult' and 'SEPtic'.

This is nothing more than anti-Socialist Equality Party propaganda. So frag off, you loser.
Image
Soviet cogitations: 7
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 04 May 2007, 01:17
New Comrade (Say hi & be nice to me!)
Post 04 May 2007, 21:34
The difference, which is so incredibly obvious that it's
shocking I should even have to articulate it, IS that
Engels's company wasn't built with the funds and work
that decades of communist "cadres" put into the company.

So DOES North/Green own the company? He's CEO. What are
the connections between SEPtic and the company? Did
the party simply sign everything over to North and his
wife?

I was a member of SEPtic when it was the WL, and I can
state absolutely that David W. Green is David North.
Soviet cogitations: 7
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 04 May 2007, 01:17
New Comrade (Say hi & be nice to me!)
Post 04 May 2007, 21:47
As to whether my designation cult fits SEPtic, I
offer you the following test that you can carry out
to find out for yourself:

The next time North organizes a national meeting of
some sort for Party members, you will be given a
chance to speak in front of everyone.

During this opportunity, why don't you ask whether
or not there are potential conflicts of interest
for the Party Chairman North to also be running
the business that most likely provides most of the
Party funds? Also, why don't you ask how can it
be that a guy who organizes negative one hundred
people in 30 years can remain the Party national
secretary. Also, why don't you ask why the Party
hasn't organized any workers or led any strikes over
the last 30 years, the way the SWP did in Minneapolis
back in 1934 (when Trotsky himself was still alive
and advising the Party). Ask whether all these facts
don't suggest the need for a new leadership. Suggest
that an internal internet discussion board be established
where party members can freely discuss party tactics
and criticize the leadership.

Ten minutes after you make these remarks, after you've
been expelled from North's cult, you will be able to
see for yourself whether it's a cult or not.
User avatar
Soviet cogitations: 14444
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Sep 2006, 22:05
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Philosophized
Post 04 May 2007, 21:56
Quote:
The difference, which is so incredibly obvious that it's
shocking I should even have to articulate it, IS that
Engels's company wasn't built with the funds and work
that decades of communist "cadres" put into the company.


Can you prove that Mr. Green misappropriated funds from the SEP? Becuase if you could you could lodge a legal complaint with the party. The party would lose it's governmental protection because such actions would consitute the party as a company.

Quote:
So DOES North/Green own the company? He's CEO. What are
the connections between SEPtic and the company? Did
the party simply sign everything over to North and his
wife?


Yeah, we all have portraits of North and his wife hanging above our fireplaces. They are our gods.
Get a fragging clue dude.

Quote:
I was a member of SEPtic when it was the WL,


The Worker's League was rife with pabloite scum, it was right of the Party to reconstitute itself into the SEP. And I seriously doubt that you were in fact a member. This stinks of 'i was a moslem and i realized that islam is a death cult' type propaganda.

Quote:
and I can state absolutely that David W. Green is David North.


So what? So what if David North is CEO of this printing company? And if he is I can guarantee that money is flowing into the SEP not the other way around.
And just to forestall the stupid posts about that last bit: the printing company only make 20 million a year, Hillary Clinton has raised 3 times that. 15 of that 20 million almost certainly goes into maintenance, material, and payroll. Five million dollars a year is not enough to run a fully active party.
Image
Alternative Display:
Mobile view
More Forums: The History Forum. The UK Politics Forum.
© 2000- Soviet-Empire.com. Privacy.
cron