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Soviet Submarines VS American Submarines

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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 15 May 2005, 17:11
Komsomol
Post 06 May 2006, 00:07
Who has the better sub tech in general? I'm not going into specific types
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Soviet cogitations: 344
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 15 May 2005, 17:11
Komsomol
Post 06 May 2006, 00:08
crap, I posted it in the Cafe, could someone move it to military?
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Soviet cogitations: 3033
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 29 Nov 2004, 20:06
Party Bureaucrat
Post 06 May 2006, 00:31
I'd say the US
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 16 Feb 2005, 02:51
Party Bureaucrat
Post 06 May 2006, 01:59
The US has better electronics and precision machinery, so their submarines are usually quiter and have better sonars and fire control, but Project 971 boats are awesomely well made but not as good as the latest Virginia class as it was designed almost 30 years ago, Project 885 started in the late eighties, construction of the first boat started in 1993, but still haven't completed.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 22 Mar 2004, 18:19
Komsomol
Post 06 May 2006, 17:21
Soviet advantage of quantity comes to the play here. Soviets not only had more nuke subs but also lots and lots of diesel subs. New diesel subs, such as Project 877 Paltus are also quieter than big american nukes.
Safety in numbers, comrades.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 21 Dec 2004, 23:53
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Philosophized
Post 06 May 2006, 21:06
Here a question:
The Soviets had there subs designed for the Arctic waters. Does that mean that it would be extremely uncomfortable in warmer waters? Even to the point that they couldn't travel in them (for the crews sake).
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Soviet cogitations: 2820
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 16 Feb 2005, 02:51
Party Bureaucrat
Post 07 May 2006, 00:46
Quote:
The Soviets had there subs designed for the Arctic waters. Does that mean that it would be extremely uncomfortable in warmer waters? Even to the point that they couldn't travel in them (for the crews sake).


==It wasn't a problem for later boats which were fitted with air conditionings, but for earlier boats, temperature inside could rise above 40 degrees celcius when travelling in tropic waters, very serious problem.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 05 Jun 2005, 10:51
Komsomol
Post 07 May 2006, 19:22
I took a tour a few years ago of a Soviet Diesel sub built in the 50's which was based closely on a captured German design. It was cramped, and while in service it would have been more cramped since all the canned food was stored on the floor.

I remember reading or seeing something on earlier Soviet designs which were more tear shaped, which was better for traveling underwater than the classic US WWII design and even the Nautilus, the first US nuclear sub. It really wasn't until the 60's that the US really began making better shaped subs.

The soviets were also the first to introduce ballistic missile subs.
"There are forty-nine states in the Union, and the Soviet of Washington"
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 24 Nov 2005, 08:18
Komsomol
Post 09 May 2006, 05:45
Soviet submarines were uncomparable with American subs. They were quieter, faster, harder to detect (due to special materials and special designs of propellors), carried more weaponry and more powerful weaponry. The Soviets still hold the record for the fastest submarine, at just over 80km/h (can you imagine a 60,000t titanium cylinder travelling at 80km/h under water?). That submarine was equiped also, with the world's first sub launched, guided anti-ship cruise missile. Then, in the Mediterranean Sea, it scared the crews of the US aircraft carrier "Saratoga" when it passed them at fast speeds.

And, as someone already mentioned here, they had numbers! The USSR had more subs than all the other countries in the world combined!!
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 16 Feb 2005, 02:51
Party Bureaucrat
Post 09 May 2006, 07:27
Quote:
They were quieter


==No, the US subs were quiter due to better precision machineries, until Project 971, when Soviet Union purchased numeric control machining technologies from Japan, but, the Russian have yet to answer the US's latest Virginia class SSN.

Quote:
faster


==Only project 661, project 705 and project 685 were significantly faster than US subs, and they all have experimental characteristics, other mass produced Soviet subs never exceeded the speed of 35 knots.

Quote:
harder to detect (due to special materials and special designs of propellors)


==until 971, 945 and 877, Soviet submarines were quite noisy.

Quote:
That submarine was equiped also, with the world's first sub launched, guided anti-ship cruise missile.


==No, K-162 only carried 10 P-50 missiles, the world's first ship launched missile was the P-5, long rang, supersonic, plenty of processing power, truly was ahead of its time. Chelomei design bureau was good.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 24 Nov 2005, 08:18
Komsomol
Post 09 May 2006, 07:59
What speeds did US subs have??? Soviet speeds were still on average faster than US subs, even if not counting 661, 705 and 685.
Russian submarines were famous for their stealth! This was largely due to special materials on the hull, and even the materials that it was made of. The Russians were the first to make submarines out of titanium, which greatly contributed to stealth, as it had a "low electro-magnetic profile".
Their subs carried much heavier, much better, and more weapons than the US subs.
And the 661 DID have the first SUB launched anti-ship guided cruise missile.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 16 Feb 2005, 02:51
Party Bureaucrat
Post 09 May 2006, 08:12
Quote:
Soviet speeds were still on average faster than US subs, even if not counting 661, 705 and 685.


==Yeah, 2 knots faster.

Quote:
Russian submarines were famous for their stealth! This was largely due to special materials on the hull, and even the materials that it was made of. The Russians were the first to make submarines out of titanium, which greatly contributed to stealth, as it had a "low electro-magnetic profile".


==Low magnetic alloys and titanium only works against MAD, which is used as a mean to pin point the location of the enemy sub after sonar contact.

Quote:
And the 661 DID have the first SUB launched anti-ship guided cruise missile.


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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 24 Nov 2005, 08:18
Komsomol
Post 09 May 2006, 08:54
So, they were faster than American subs?............

And without pin point location, it is quite hard to engage a sub these days.

And what is that picture of? Is that really a guided anti-ship cruise missile??
Quote:
Осознав невысокую эффективность ПЛАРК первого поколения главным образом, по причине надводного старта ПКР руководство ВМФ начало торопить ОКБ-52 В.Н.Челомея с быстрейшей разработкой ПКР с подводным стартом. Эти работы хотя и велись с конца 50-х годов, но до их завершения было далеко. Главная проблема была в выборе двигателя для ПКР. Из всех возможных, реальными были только жидкостной или твердотопливный реактивный двигатель. Только они могли работать под водой. Заставить турбореактивный двигатель сразу после выхода из воды ПКР запуститься и выйти на номинальный режим тогда еще не умели. В окончательном варианте выбрали для ПКР твердотопливный двигатель. Работы по созданию новой ПКР "Аметист" начались в начале 60-х годов и завершились принятием ее на вооружение лишь в 1968 г. Дальность стрельбы и масса боевой части по сравнению с П-6 резко снизились. Однако благодаря подводному старту во много раз повысилась скрытность и, главное, внезапность применения ПКР с ПЛ. Для их размещения были построены ПЛАРК следующего поколения

You seem to be able to read Russian...
http://www.submarine.id.ru/sub.php?661

If you can't, ask me for translation (although it will take about a week)


The picture you showed, is not of a missile that can be launched from under water.
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"Art belongs to the people!" - V.I. Lenin
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Soviet cogitations: 793
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 24 Nov 2005, 08:18
Komsomol
Post 09 May 2006, 08:56
BTW, the best site for any information on submarines is http://www.submarine.id.ru, although you need to know Russian.
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"Art belongs to the people!" - V.I. Lenin
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 16 Feb 2005, 02:51
Party Bureaucrat
Post 09 May 2006, 09:13
Quote:
So, they were faster than American subs?............


==One to two knots on average, which won't matter much in real life as most sub run silent most of the time, which is less than 15 knots.

Quote:
And without pin point location, it is quite hard to engage a sub these days.


==Well, there are still other means, the primary method used by the US navy is till sonar bouys, MAD is only secondary.

Quote:
And what is that picture of? Is that really a guided anti-ship cruise missile??


==It's 644 with two P-5, early cruise missile submarine.

Quote:
http://www.submarine.id.ru/sub.php?661


==First under water launched cruise missile, not first submarine launched anti-ship cruise missile.

Quote:
BTW, the best site for any information on submarines is www.submarine.id.ru, although you need to know Russian.


==I know this site, but last time I visited it was almost two years ago
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Soviet cogitations: 2845
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 21 Nov 2004, 20:31
Party Bureaucrat
Post 09 May 2006, 13:31
(delete)
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Soviet cogitations: 464
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 22 Mar 2004, 18:19
Komsomol
Post 09 May 2006, 20:19
Quote:
==No, the US subs were quiter due to better precision machineries, until Project 971, when Soviet Union purchased numeric control machining technologies from Japan, but, the Russian have yet to answer the US's latest Virginia class SSN.


Could you give a link or some other info source about this japanese machinery. I haven't heard about this before.
COMMIE-HA-ME-HA!!!
Quote from Stalin Ball Z
****************************
Working class will kick your ass.
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Soviet cogitations: 2820
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 16 Feb 2005, 02:51
Party Bureaucrat
Post 09 May 2006, 22:44
Quote:
Could you give a link or some other info source about this japanese machinery. I haven't heard about this before.


==In 1987, Toshiba sold a batch of CNC machine tools to the soviet union,
http://reference.allrefer.com/country-guide-study/japan/japan193.html
http://www.highbeam.com/library/docfree.asp?DOCID=1G1:7896269&ctrlInfo=Round19%3AMode19a%3ADocG%3AResult&ao=
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese-Soviet_relations
It suppose to be a quite well known incident, I am surprised that you've never heard of this before.
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Soviet cogitations: 793
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 24 Nov 2005, 08:18
Komsomol
Post 09 May 2006, 23:33
1. I want to know what these machines were
2. I want to see a photo of them
3. How do they work? Although, that should be answered by 1 and 2
4. What quality of the propellors did they change to make them more quieter?


I somehow doubt that, these machines would actually decrease sound from the propellors by a significant level.
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"Art belongs to the people!" - V.I. Lenin
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Soviet cogitations: 2820
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 16 Feb 2005, 02:51
Party Bureaucrat
Post 10 May 2006, 02:52
Quote:
1. I want to know what these machines were

Quote:
2. I want to see a photo of them


==Probably vertical milling and turning machines, as they are usually used to process complex shapes.

==Can't find the information on the actual machines sold in 1987, but it would be something along the line of these
http://www.toshiba-machine.com/machinetool/MT_products.htm

Quote:
3. How do they work? Although, that should be answered by 1 and 2


==Recommended reading-- E. Paul DeGarmo, J T. Black, Ronalf A. Kohser Matrerials And Processes In Manufacturing John Wiley and Sons 2003 ISBN 0-471-65653-4.

Quote:
I somehow doubt that, these machines would actually decrease sound from the propellors by a significant level.


==High tolerance and surface finishes are vital to reducing turbulence and formatuion of cavitations, which will significantly reduce the noice, also, precision machinery on parts like gear wheels, pumps, shafts will also reduce the noises.
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