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Hollande's right turn

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Soviet cogitations: 2294
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Aug 2010, 14:21
Party Bureaucrat
Post 17 Jan 2014, 15:43
While the world is obsessed by French president's sexual depravity, Hollande has started a right turn. Actually he was already right-wing, but now this is worse since he has announced more tax cut for businesses and less state expenditures in a plan called "pacte de responsabilité" (responsibility agreement). The right-wing party UMP is divded between supporters of Hollande and those who still criticize. Gattaz, president of the bosses' association MEDEF stated: "The pact that was served to us by President Hollande was inspired, I do not say it too loud, by the confidence pact that we served to him on a platter." The left wing of the Socialist Party remains sluggish, few have dared to oppose Hollande.
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"Fishing is part of agriculture" Gred
"Loz, you are like me" Yami
"I am one of the better read Marxists on this site" Gred
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Soviet cogitations: 589
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 07 Dec 2013, 14:24
Ideology: Democratic Socialism
Unperson
Post 17 Jan 2014, 16:23
Yet his right-turn is of no concern for socialists. We do not seek to administer capitalism but replace it with socialism.

As for tax cuts and cutting back the state...well Keynes, that darling of the left, was in favour of these, if inflation was rising.

But cutting or raising taxes has nothing to do with socialism. If you don't like what he is doing then you know which way to vote in the next election.
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Soviet cogitations: 3844
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 12 Jun 2006, 02:14
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Politburo
Post 17 Jan 2014, 16:44
His right-turn is of concern for all socialist who live in France and will have to suffer the consequences.

I don't know why Yami brings Keynes into the mix, but I prefer inflation to cutting back the state anyday. And so does my government.

Are there any rallies scheduled? Are leftist parties taking the streets?


"Where Argentina goes, Latin America will go".
Leonid Brezhnev

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Soviet cogitations: 589
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 07 Dec 2013, 14:24
Ideology: Democratic Socialism
Unperson
Post 17 Jan 2014, 16:52
You prefer inflation? But that would mean that goverment spending will buy less and less...inflation means unemployment!
I bring Keynes into the mix because what people think is socialism is actually just Keynesian economics; tax and spend. But that fails to solve the problems of any capitalist economy. As we in the UK found out in 1976 when James Callaghan stood up in parliament and said this:

We used to think that you could spend your way out of a recession and increase employment by cutting taxes and boosting government spending. I tell you in all candour that that option no longer exists, and in so far as it ever did exist, it only worked on each occasion since the war by injecting a bigger dose of inflation into the economy, followed by a higher level of unemployment as the next step.

As for taking to the streets, they tried that in 1968 and what happened? The right-wing triumphed! The protesters fell right into the hands of de Gaulle, who asked “who governs?” the voters said he did and his party won 352 of 487 seats.
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Soviet cogitations: 3844
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 12 Jun 2006, 02:14
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Politburo
Post 17 Jan 2014, 16:57
I do prefer inflation. It does not mean unemployment. Argentina has grown for 10 years, reducing unemployment from 25% to 7% with an inflation between 5% and 20%.
It seems that James Callaghan didn't know how to manage the economy.

It failed in '68, so it must fail now? Yeah, because it's totally the same context...


"Where Argentina goes, Latin America will go".
Leonid Brezhnev

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Soviet cogitations: 589
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 07 Dec 2013, 14:24
Ideology: Democratic Socialism
Unperson
Post 17 Jan 2014, 17:23
Che Burashka wrote:
I do prefer inflation. It does not mean unemployment. Argentina has grown for 10 years, reducing unemployment from 25% to 7% with an inflation between 5% and 20%.
It seems that James Callaghan didn't know how to manage the economy.

It failed in '68, so it must fail now? Yeah, because it's totally the same context...


http://www.socialiststudies.org.uk/socs ... ml#control

Politicians do not control the economy and never will!

Yes if failed in '68 so why try again? What are you going to do that is different?
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Soviet cogitations: 3844
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 12 Jun 2006, 02:14
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Politburo
Post 17 Jan 2014, 17:37
A politician that's not willing to change the economy, never will control it. I agree on that.

I'm not going to do anything different, because I'm not in France. Let them do what they feel like they need to do.

Once again, you're only calling for us to stay home and quiet. What the french need is a call to action.


"Where Argentina goes, Latin America will go".
Leonid Brezhnev

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Soviet cogitations: 2294
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Aug 2010, 14:21
Party Bureaucrat
Post 17 Jan 2014, 18:33
A call to action against Hollande's policy has already been made in december but that wasn't enough, not engouh citizens followed, and this right turn is the symbol of our defeat. I think we will have to wait the first measures to take action.
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"Fishing is part of agriculture" Gred
"Loz, you are like me" Yami
"I am one of the better read Marxists on this site" Gred
[+-]
Soviet cogitations: 589
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 07 Dec 2013, 14:24
Ideology: Democratic Socialism
Unperson
Post 17 Jan 2014, 18:49
Che Burashka wrote:
A politician that's not willing to change the economy, never will control it. I agree on that.

I'm not going to do anything different, because I'm not in France. Let them do what they feel like they need to do.

Once again, you're only calling for us to stay home and quiet. What the french need is a call to action.


I never ever called for people to stay at home and be quiet, just that I have learnt the lessons of '68. Actions like that are useless, in fact they are worse that useless as they are counter-productive. All you do is play into the hands of your enemies.

I do not care where members of the working class are, we all need to unite and support one another. That would be like saying of the Spanish Civil War. I am not in Spain, let the Spanish sort it out.

You obviously did not understand what was written in the link; politicians cann;t change the economy as they are not in control of it!

But lets put you in the position of Callaghan in 1976. Unemployment is rising, so what do you do? Well you increase spending to create jobs.
What happens when inflation rises? Well you cut spending to reduce inflation. But what happens when both inflation and unemployment are rising? You cannot cut spending and increase it at the same time!
A conundrum!
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Soviet cogitations: 2294
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Aug 2010, 14:21
Party Bureaucrat
Post 17 Jan 2014, 20:06
Devaluation.
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"Fishing is part of agriculture" Gred
"Loz, you are like me" Yami
"I am one of the better read Marxists on this site" Gred
Soviet cogitations: 216
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 27 Jul 2013, 05:04
Ideology: Other Leftist
Pioneer
Post 18 Jan 2014, 16:18
None of it is surprising, though. By and large, the French Socialist Party is basically watered-down social democracy of the New Labour “Third Way” variety. I am in no way surprised by Hollande’s actions. People are fed up with that ideology as well as liberal conservatism, the other mainstream alternative.
Soviet cogitations: 1011
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 24 Feb 2004, 06:15
Party Member
Post 19 Jan 2014, 04:27
Che Burashka wrote:
I do prefer inflation. It does not mean unemployment. Argentina has grown for 10 years, reducing unemployment from 25% to 7% with an inflation between 5% and 20%.
It seems that James Callaghan didn't know how to manage the economy.

It failed in '68, so it must fail now? Yeah, because it's totally the same context...


Problem is, with the Euro devaluating the coin is no longer an option for national goverments...
Back in white
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Soviet cogitations: 2294
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Aug 2010, 14:21
Party Bureaucrat
Post 19 Jan 2014, 12:09
It's not because the euro is devaluating, it's because the ECB, and not the governements, is in charge of monetary policies. I think a true socialist/communist movement would have to get out of the Eurozone prior to establish any economic policy.
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"Fishing is part of agriculture" Gred
"Loz, you are like me" Yami
"I am one of the better read Marxists on this site" Gred
[+-]
Soviet cogitations: 589
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 07 Dec 2013, 14:24
Ideology: Democratic Socialism
Unperson
Post 20 Jan 2014, 12:08
Whatever you do make sure you don’t involve the students and keep the communists in the background. That is what frightened the voters in 1968.
The last thing you want is a backlash that leads to the right getting back in power which happened in ’68.
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Soviet cogitations: 2294
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Aug 2010, 14:21
Party Bureaucrat
Post 20 Jan 2014, 13:01
They might have been frightened at the moment but in 1969 the Communist Party obtained 21.27% of the votes at the presidential election. Moreover the Communist Party was far from being behind the student movement in 1968, he had no choice but to support the working class.
Last edited by OP-Bagration on 20 Jan 2014, 16:24, edited 1 time in total.
Image

"Fishing is part of agriculture" Gred
"Loz, you are like me" Yami
"I am one of the better read Marxists on this site" Gred
[+-]
Soviet cogitations: 589
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 07 Dec 2013, 14:24
Ideology: Democratic Socialism
Unperson
Post 20 Jan 2014, 13:11
...and here you are now, in 2014, back where you started!

So what lessons can you draw from 1968?
Soviet cogitations: 10005
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 14 Jul 2008, 20:01
Ideology: Trotskyism
Philosophized
Post 21 Jan 2014, 00:51
Che Burashka wrote:
His right-turn is of concern for all working people who live in France and will have to suffer the consequences.


Fix'd.


Quote:
As for taking to the streets, they tried that in 1968 and what happened? The right-wing triumphed!


...so taking the streets is a bad idea or what? 1968 was the biggest revolutionary general strike ever, and that was a bad idea? The right wing triumphed (in the guise of the Communist Party. whatever) because "the left wing" did not have an organized political expression. Instead of understanding this and concluding that the political organization of the working class is the biggest problem of the revolution which needs to be solved right now, you're saying that the workers should not take power?
"Don't know why i'm still surprised with this shit anyway." - Loz
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Soviet cogitations: 589
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 07 Dec 2013, 14:24
Ideology: Democratic Socialism
Unperson
Post 21 Jan 2014, 23:03
Fine. You take to the streets and see how far it gets you. It failed in '68 and it will fail in 2014.

So when it sweeps the right-wing back into power and the protestors are nursing sore heads, shattered dreams and wondering how they are going to pay their fines, I hope you'll let me be the first to say, told you so!
Soviet cogitations: 1011
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 24 Feb 2004, 06:15
Party Member
Post 22 Jan 2014, 00:35
OP-Bagration wrote:
It's not because the euro is devaluating, it's because the ECB, and not the governements, is in charge of monetary policies. I think a true socialist/communist movement would have to get out of the Eurozone prior to establish any economic policy.

I did not mean to imply that the euro was devaluating. I should have included a comma in my comment, perhaps



Problem is, with the Euro, devaluating the coin is no longer an option for national goverments...
Back in white
Soviet cogitations: 10005
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 14 Jul 2008, 20:01
Ideology: Trotskyism
Philosophized
Post 22 Jan 2014, 01:00
Again:

Quote:
you're saying that the workers should not take power?


Or do you think they can do so without taking to the streets?
"Don't know why i'm still surprised with this shit anyway." - Loz
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