Muslim terrorist shoots at Jewish school in France, 4 killed

France shooting: Toulouse Jewish school attack kills four

A gunman has shot dead a teacher and three children at a Jewish school in the French city of Toulouse.
He opened fire on the Ozar Hatorah school in the north-east of the city, also seriously injuring a teenage boy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Midi- ... _shootings

This is a very strange thing. The first few days everyone assumed it was neo-nazis. Now it's supposedly an Algerian Wahabbi.

The worst thing is, they're going to use this as an excuse to suppress muslims even more, and claim that they're all terrorists. It's a shame that the Jewish community always allows itself to be victimized by the rest, and pretend like they're being bullied by muslims all the time. This is really sad though, it's beyond me how anyone could hurt children.

Dagoth Ur wrote:

This is a very strange thing. The first few days everyone assumed it was neo-nazis. Now it's supposedly an Algerian Wahabbi.

At first they though some Neo-Nazi parachute squad had something to do with it, but they were apparently cleared of all charges. Now the police has surrounded a building where the Algerian is hiding in. Weird stuff indeed.

Quote:

It's a shame that the Jewish community always allows itself to be victimized by the rest, and pretend like they're being bullied by muslims all the time.

More than 300 antisemitic attacks happened in France in the last year, most of them committed by Muslims.

^There are 3 million muslims in France, and only 10.000 jews. Antisemitism is horrible, but it does not justify doing the same thing to others, as if all muslims have some sort of intrinsic hatred towards jews. Relations are tense because of the Israel-Palestina conflict. Does the oppression of Palestinians by Israel justify antisemitism? I think not.

False, there are 500 000 Jews in France.
And most French Muslims aren't even Palestinian.

All Muslims are Palestinians. Ignoring this is to truly misunderstand Islam and Muslims in general. That said attacking Jews for being Jews is a direct contradiction of Allah and is no different from slaughtering Muslims.

Oops, my mistake, I was looking at immigrant religions.

Loz wrote:

And most French Muslims aren't even Palestinian.

What is your point? All I'm saying is that I'm afraid the muslim community will be blamed for this attack, and I think it's a shame there aren't more progressive jews who are opposed to discrimination from both sides.

Quote:

All I'm saying is that I'm afraid the muslim community will be blamed for this attack

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jyllands-P ... ontroversy
Besides,what about the "Muslim community"? You can be a Muslim and perfectly outside this "community", which is often the snake's nest of reactionary obscurantism. See Bosnians for example.

Quote:

and I think it's a shame there aren't more progressive jews who are opposed to discrimination from both sides.

You don't see Jews protesting about some cartoons of YHWH on the streets.

Who draws cartoons of Yaweh? What would be the point? I can't believe you're being so naive about this loz. When someone who is equal to you makes fun of your god it's one thing, when they're making fun of your god while killing you and your people that's another. If I were Jewish and Germany started making cracks about Yaweh I'd be pretty pissed.

Quote:

Who draws cartoons of Yaweh?

There's a good 50 pages of Google images on him. (Ok,this is Moses but he was given the Commands by god himself.)

Quote:

When someone who is equal to you makes fun of your god it's one thing, when they're making fun of your god while killing you and your people that's another.

Yes,the Danes are well known imperialist aggressors on Afghanistan and other Muslim countries.
That doesn't really hold water.

Quote:

If I were Jewish and Germany started making cracks about Yaweh I'd be pretty pissed.

You can get pissed in private if you really feel like it (although you really don't have a good reason to,but ok), however you don't have the right to riot on the streets and burn buildings just because someone drew a cartoon of your god.

Loz wrote:

Yes,the Danes are well known imperialist aggressors on Afghanistan and other Muslim countries.

There are currently 750 danish soldiers in Afghanistan.

Yes,i know that. But they didn't initiate the war,nor did they make some great contributions to it. You don't hear of Danish UAV attacks and so on...
And Turkey,which is a Muslim state, sent more than 1800.
Albania,Malaysia, even UAE sent soldiers too.

Anyway,that argument doesn't really make much sense to me at all.

Loz wrote:

Yes,the Danes are well known imperialist aggressors on Afghanistan and other Muslim countries.

That doesn't really hold water.

Muslims can be looked at as a monolithic mass of crazy fanatics but the west cannot he characterized as racist imperialists? Naw dawg sorry doesn't work. The majority of Muslim organizations suck but so does the racist antics of Europeans.

Loz wrote:

You can get pissed in private if you really feel like it (although you really don't have a good reason to,but ok),

The country that carried out the holocaust doesn't ever get to say shit about Jews again.

Loz wrote:

however you don't have the right to riot on the streets and burn buildings just because someone drew a cartoon of your god.

No it doesn't but your attitude is unscientific because it fails to account for social oppression whatsoever.

Also there is this thing called "the Wesr" loz and it directly benefits, Danes and all, from the imperialist oppression of the third world. Indirectly or no their hands are just as dirty.

EDIT:
Btw contributing to imperialist rhetoric is as valuable a part of imperialism as the military power of the imperialists.

Quote:

Muslims can be looked at as a monolithic mass of crazy fanatics but the west cannot he characterized as racist imperialists?

No. But i don't even see where's the connection.
The point was that you get riots just because of some rather benign caricatures.
And yes, Denmark's imperialism is quite different from the imperialism of America or the UK.

Quote:

The country that carried out the holocaust doesn't ever get to say shit about Jews again.

A German, just like anyone else, should have the right to draw caricatures of YHWH without fearing for his life.

Quote:

No it doesn't but your attitude is unscientific because it fails to account for social oppression whatsoever.

Please elaborate, i'm not getting your point.

Quote:

Also there is this thing called "the Wesr" loz and it directly benefits, Danes and all, from the imperialist oppression of the third world. Indirectly or no their hands are just as dirty.

Maybe, but then Saudi Arabia is much worse in regards to that.

Quote:

Btw contributing to imperialist rhetoric is as valuable a part of imperialism as the military power of the imperialists.

Agreed. BTW, Arab anti-imperialism has traditionally been very much secular. It's only since the 80s and the NATO-supported Taliban (etc.) struggle against social-imperialism (Maoist rhetorics) that it became more fundamentalist in its outlook.

Loz wrote:

No. But i don't even see where's the connection.
The point was that you get riots just because of some rather benign caricatures.
And yes, Denmark's imperialism is quite different from the imperialism of America or the UK.

No it is not. They just play a different role in it. Imperialism is ultimately an international system. There isn't American or British or French imperialism because they all serve the same ends: enrichment of the west off the rest.

Loz wrote:

A German, just like anyone else, should have the right to draw caricatures of YHWH without fearing for his life.

Rights? Liberalism is bullshit loz. Nobody has the right to oppress anyone physically or rhetorically. But that's not even what I was talking about. I said the country, ie the German leading class who rules and decides things, never gets to say shit about Jews again. It's insane to me that you're okay with German antisemitism.

Loz wrote:

Please elaborate, i'm not getting your point.

My point us that your analogy, a Jew being made fun of by Europeans versus a Muslim being made fun of by europeans, completely lacks any understanding of the differences in oppression. But then I'm starting to get the sinking suspicion that you are fine with oppressing religious people for their faith.

Loz wrote:

Maybe, but then Saudi Arabia is much worse in regards to that.

No Saudi Arabia is shitty but it is not worse. Imperialism kills more and oppresses far more than a billion Saudi princes. Saudi Arabia is imperialism deferred, but the monarchy maintains itself through this submission.

Loz wrote:

Agreed. BTW, Arab anti-imperialism has traditionally been very much secular. It's only since the 80s and the NATO-supported Taliban (etc.) struggle against social-imperialism (Maoist rhetorics) that it became more fundamentalist in its outlook.

This is irrelevant to the fact that racist elements in Europe aid imperialism through cartoons.

Quote:

No it is not. They just play a different role in it. Imperialism is ultimately an international system. There isn't American or British or French imperialism because they all serve the same ends: enrichment of the west off the rest.

I know.
But you can't really blame Chinese imperialism for the situation in Afghanistan.
Also UK and France (not the US in this case) were pretty much the biggest "culprits" in the Libya.

Quote:

Rights? Liberalism is bullshit loz. Nobody has the right to oppress anyone physically or rhetorically.

And this isn't liberalism? I don't have the right to draw cartoons of deities? Where's the line between that and saying that "nobody has the right to oppress people" by, say, expropriating them in different ways?

Quote:

I said the country, ie the German leading class who rules and decides things, never gets to say shit about Jews again. It's insane to me that you're okay with German antisemitism.

The Danish cartoon were made by some barely-known cartoonist in some local papers.
And yes, the "official organ" of the German leading class (assuming such newspapers or whatever existed) , would do nothing wrong by criticizing Judaism, Islam or Christianity. Of course, out of these three only one can bring fatwas and suicide bombers upon you.

Quote:

But then I'm starting to get the sinking suspicion that you are fine with oppressing religious people for their faith.

We're not in Hoxha's Albania,unfortunately.
I'm perfectly fine with religion being a private issue. Which means that you won't go out and burn shit because someone posted a cartoon of your god.

Quote:

No Saudi Arabia is shitty but it is not worse. Imperialism kills more and oppresses far more than a billion Saudi princes.

S.Arabia and Kuwait directly helped the rebels in Libya (and Bosnia in the 90s) for example.
It is also an imperialist country, certainly more than Denmark.

Quote:

This is irrelevant to the fact that racist elements in Europe aid imperialism through cartoons.

I'd say that the reaction of some Muslims following the publishing of these cartoons went much more in favor of imperialism.
Just like firing Katyushas from Gaza goes in favor of imperialism.

Dagoth Ur wrote:

All Muslims are Palestinians. Ignoring this is to truly misunderstand Islam and Muslims in general.

Actually, Comrade Dagoth Ur, there are a number of Palestinians who've been Christian all throughout their history. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Christians I just wish that Christians around the world were to have as much solidarity with their Palestinian brethern in the faith, as Muslims worldwide have for their's. Instead Christians in such countries as America tend to largely support Israel as a Jewish state. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Zionism I don't think that American Christians are even generally aware that there even are any Arabs who are Christian, though there are. But as to the topic at hand. No I do not believe that it's justified to wantonly slaughter people, including Jews, and/or lump them all together in some figuative pigeon hole. To do so would violate standards of just war, but also Islamic rules og engagement ,in particular. Though at risk of sounding anti-semitic, I might like to ask some Jews, if I were to get the opportunity, how they would condemn genocide, and terrorism, when according to their own scriptures, their own anscestors were supposedly authorised by God to do just that.

Quote:

1 Samuel 15:2-3
Thus saith the LORD of hosts ... go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

This is just one example of such a passage. Plus one of their biblical heroes, Samson, commited a suicide attack.

Quote:

Judges 16:27-30
Now the house was full of men and women ... about three thousand men and women.... And Samson called unto the LORD, and said ... strengthen me ... that I may be at once avenged of the Philistines.... And Samson took hold of the two middle pillars upon which the house stood..... And Samson said, Let me die with the Philistines. And he bowed himself with all his might; and the house fell upon the lords, and upon all the people that were therein. So the dead which he slew at his death were more than they which he slew in his life.

So, though at this time it would be in poor taste, and insensitive, under the circumstances, I'd be curious what these yeshiva students, and rabbis, would make of that. But like I stated before, two wrongs do not make a right, and people shouldn't stoop to the level of their enemies.

Quote:

And this isn't liberalism? I don't have the right to draw cartoons of deities? Where's the line between that and saying that "nobody has the right to oppress people" by, say, expropriating them in different ways?

Hegel made a distinction between negative and positive liberties. Your freedom to draw offensive cartoons is a negative liberty, falling under the category of "the right to free speech." It is a freedom FROM interference. According to the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy: "The negative concept of freedom ... is most commonly assumed in liberal defences of the constitutional liberties typical of liberal-democratic societies, such as freedom of movement, freedom of religion, and freedom of speech, and in arguments against paternalist or moralist state intervention. It is also often invoked in defences of the right to private property, although some have contested the claim that private property necessarily enhances negative liberty." This is the essence of liberalism.

At the same time, such Islamophobia and racism infringes on the positive liberties of the Muslim community:
"Positive liberty is defined as having the power and resources to fulfill one's own potential (this may include freedom from internal constraints); as opposed to negative liberty, which is freedom from external restraint. Specifically, the concepts of structure and agency are central to the concept of positive liberty because in order to be free, a person should be free from inhibitions of the social structure in carrying out their free will. Structurally speaking classism, sexism or racism can inhibit a person's freedom and positive liberty is primarily concerned with the possession of sociological agency." Somewhat related is the concept of positive rights, such as the right to education, housing, food, medical care, etc.

Liberalism has a tendency to value negative liberties over positive liberties. Dagoth saying that no one should be oppressed physically or rhetorically was a defense of the positive rights of subjugated communities. You saying that everyone should have the right to draw offensive cartoons is a defense of your own negative rights over the positive rights of others: in a word, liberalism.

Quote:

You saying that everyone should have the right to draw offensive cartoons is a defense of your own negative rights over the positive rights of others: in a word, liberalism.

No it's not, because i'm talking about a very specific thing ( religious cartoons).
Unless you're calling Hoxha and Stalin liberals too because they encouraged such drawings.