I am surprised to see what a godless commie I have become over the last years. Mostly because i have come to see morals as something completly relative which is opposed to religions view on morals.
Also countless irl debates with religious people that tend to think religion is our only way to salvation and thus refuse to acknowledge any social progress is needed. Left me little choice but to take the extreme stance on the matter (it enforces the status quo) even when it wasn't my exact opinion.
From what i've picked up you are at the point that you think the most important thing about religion is believing which is kinda contradictionary with materialism; things that go on in our head don't have any direct influence on the world.
Anyway if i am correct about this being your position it would mean you've already personalized your religion which makes you an easy target for the devil to seduce .
I personally went slowly from 'All u need is to believe' to 'Even if it is all a load of crap, believing would be the rational thing to do (securing my place in heaven in case it's true anyway ) to 'meh it's kinda irrelevant to everything that matters atm except personal growth'.
This to oversimpelfy things ofcourse, my current stance is best explained by Dagoth Ur actually, that man is a hero. But i personally do not have the skill, patience or will to actively maintain that position publicly.
Anyway sorry for making this about me, I guess I just wanted to show that it's not like u got to decide between the two right now. In order to make your thought consistent u will make concessions there where u see contradictions. And if u don't find any that's even better just keep thinking and learning.
We need to make revolution so our kids wont grow up in corporate prostitution
Sky was the limit. Then the communists came!
Lol no man, this is hooliganism not class action
I mean get organised at the place of work, with the union. Be active in the worker's movement. If you are a teen, get organised on the communist youth of the compart. I dont; know much about the compart of canada and it's youth or the cpcml, but if they are serious, elementary questions and basis of marxism leninism should be delivered on a daily basis or so. Do you get informed about their actions and newspapers and such?
There is no better "propaganda" than your own stance in life.
Sometimes people need to sit on ideas for a while after they've discovered them before they can truly decide how they make sense to them. Simply reading some theories and understanding them isn't always enough to know how you feel about them.
I'd suggest reading in the areas that interest you and kicking ideas around until you know what you think. I understand that you want to share these ideas with your peers and don't want to misrepresent them. That's terrific, but it's probably best to acknowledge your limitations and simply make the ideas and reading matter available to your peers also. There's no shame in admitting that you are still learning. It's clearly preferable to claiming to be an expert before you are: (viewtopic.php?f=109&t=51986) You obviously know enough to be able to steer them away from some of the stupider and more inaccurate points that people have made about communism - that's a good start.
Marxism is a complicated subject - people spend many years studying its' intricacies. Spend some time reading articles on places like the Marxist Internet Archive as well as on sites like SE.
As some other members have suggested, if you have a party in your area you might be able to give them a look. You usually don't have to join if you just want to ask questions. Alternatively, if there is an Occupy movement in you area you might find some useful contacts in places like that.
Plenty of Commies just won't shut up once they discover you are interested.
I would love to join the YCL (the young communist league) but my parents were raised staunch conservatives and would never let me join. I live in a small town, unfortunately occupy is much beyond us.
It looks like I'm just going to have to hit some books
I would like to know why that is.
Well you have realized how important diamat is, right? And diamat says that matter is uncreated and eternal. Without this, diamat collapses. Without diamat, Marxism collapses. Of course you can still take what you like from Marxism, but I don't think that you can be a Marxist if you deny this.
However if you agree with this, it doesn't mean you have to deny your religion. If you think of God as material, and you can make a case for that, the case looks very different. It does however mean that you'll have to say goodbye to Biblical literalism if you adhere to it.
The last message screams "idealism", and the concept of man "serving" anybody is highly anti-communist.
See, that is (one of) the issue(s) I have with religion. You "believe" in stuff. Rational people either know stuff or they don't. They don't "believe". You can't believe in Diamat (or evolution). You accept them because they are true, and then you know that they are true. Belief on the other hand is the acceptance of something as true without evidence. This is why you can easily switch them: What you believe is not related to the truth in any way, so you can just choose to believe whatever you want. This is why you can talk about "sacrificing" your "belief" in diamat - but the truth of diamat is completely unrelated to whether you choose to believe in it or not.
That would be a ridiculous argument indeed.
To me, what you call "hatred" looks more like well-deserved ridicule. But that's the typical Christian way of misunderstanding atheists - obviously they hate god and want to continue living in sin. I mean, if God existed I'd certainly hate him, and I do love to live in sin, because sin is just an ugly term for "all the nice things in the world", but since he does not exist, I don't hate him, I just laugh at the idea that he does, and I'm pretty sure that Marx felt about it in a similar way.
You're disappointed by the fact that Marxism manages to make sense of the world without God? When I realized that, I was ecstatic.
Like what? Mother Teresa was a huge -comment removed-.
Dialectical and Historical Materialism
Critique of Political Economy
Read these, then come back and ask questions. Seriously, after starting a questions thread, getting five pages of replies and then claiming that we haven't been very helpful, you should be extremely surprised if anybody still has the patience to explain you everything from beginning to end.
Tell that to the Incas and Aztecs. Or the children that are destined for starvation because their parents can't use condoms. Or the people who end up with a shitload of sexual neuroses (read: everybody who believes in no sex before marriage). Or the people who are married and hate it and have to stay in their marriage because apparently it's some kind of holy contract. Or the people who have to deny their desires because they're sinful (read: every Christian who is serious about their faith).
Religion poisons everything.
Trying to reconcile Marxism with religion is like trying to reconcile your work with your hobby: pointless as long as one does not get in the way of the other and impossible once it does.
It would not be strange that there had been civilization on Mars, but maybe capitalism arrived there, imperialism arrived and finished off the planet. - Hugo Chavez
Matter came from somewhere.
Well, here's a shot in the sky. What if God exists? Then what? Oh no!
Plus, I'll tell you right now that many perfectly logical people reject Diamat and accept Christianity. To suggest otherwise is childish.
Ridiculous. Sure, there are misrepresentations of Atheism but I can testify that many Atheists more so hate God than not believe in him. And why would you hate him? For the "injustices" in the world? That's fine, but you might as well hate free will while you're at it. According to religion, God gaves us freedom to choose, so if we do wrong, he's not going to just go "HA! NOPE!" and magically stop you.
Quote:Yeah, I bet you were happy. But I have much different views on life, and if I found out that God didn't exist I'd probably go insane.
Quote:Nonsense. In my community, and communities across the planet, churches clothe, feed and shelter the poor, support and (generally) accept all those around them as beautiful creations of God. We even have homosexuals and we treat them as our same brothers and sisters, there are no prejudices.
When I was a child, I was diagnosed with a life-threatening disease and churches all over my community raised money to help my family out. And they organize charity events and other great things all of the time.
So don't assume that all churches are evil and hate everybody. Only a miniscule ammount of churches are like that and are the only ones that you hear about in the news. Another childish move.
Well, here's the reality. YOU WEREN'T HELPFUL your arguments weren't well backed, as Dragoth CLEARLY stated. Mostly, it's been reduced this into a patronizing mess consisting of people who think that only atheists are logical and blah blah blah Karl Marx knew everything blah blah blah. I find it very funny that you didn't bother to rebut Dragoth's argument, probably because it had truth to it. You went after me and attacked what I personally believe. Like why would it matter to me if you laugh at the idea of God and would hate him if he existed? That doesn't matter to me at all.
I didn't start this thread to be converted to what you think. I didn't start this thread to be patronized, ridiculed and blamed for your lack of proof. I've already said that. You aren't going to convert me.
So stop trying.
P.S. So far, after reading those articles, I am still firmly on Dragoth's side.
That's like saying that God came from somewhere. You don't believe that either, do you.
Yeah, then humanity has a huge problem, because if it turns out that what happens in the world is actually controlled by a superior being (a thought which is not necessarily contrary to diamat) then we obviously have to revolt.
And why does this matter?
No, because I hate the idea that there's some celestial entity that constantly watches and controls me and has a problem with 90% of the things I do. It would be like living in North Korea until I die. No wait, that's when the real fun begins and I have to praise the asshole forever and ever, right? That is a terrible thought, especially considering that he's never done shit for me and I have no reason whatsoever to praise, let alone love him. The "injustices" in the world are quite irrelevant, I've already told you how Marxists feel about morality.
There is no such thing as free will. You don't control your body. You are your body. All that exists in the world is moving matter.
Yeah, that's what I was like until I was like what, 19? Yeah, it was in April last year, so I was 19 when I finally collected enough courage to face the fact that my ideas of how the world works had been completely wrong. And I didn't even do this to choose between diamat and Christianity. Diamat wasn't even that important to me back then. I just did it because all the doubts that had appeared over the years had accumulated to a degree that I just couldn't ignore them anymore. And I did try hard to be a good Christian.
Shortly after renouncing my faith, I did go a bit insane indeed. Paranoia, psychotic thoughts, everything. But that's probably normal if you redesign your entire world view and every moment of your life is suddenly interpreted differently. It does get better though, and I feel a lot better than I ever did as a Christian, so the "I'd go insane" thing is not really an argument.
1. Supporting the poor is the opposite of fighting poverty. Hence my comment about Mother Teresa. Supporting the poor - instead of organizing them and fighting against the system that makes them poor - is quite harmful.
2. Do you let the homosexuals have sex? If not, you are not treating them the same as the others. You are denying them one of the most basic, important aspects of human existence.
That's nice. Look I never denied that Christians are generally nice people. But you do realize that this wouldn't have been necessary if the socio-political circumstances had been a bit different and there had been free health care in the US, right? And so, what these people did for you was the same reactionary thing I said earlier, "supporting the poor" without doing anything at all about the root causes of poverty. I assure you that lots of children with life-threatening diseases actually die in the USA because there are no churches to support them, or because they fail to support them, because the health care system is fragged up beyond belief. If the churches really were a cause for good, they would do something about this. They do not. They yield to Caesar what is Caesar's.
Yeah, because most probably the only answer you'd appreciate as being "helpful" is one that tells you just what you wanted to hear. Well, I'm sorry, diamat and religion can't be reconciled.
No, because Dagoth. without an r, and I have gone through this millions of times, and we actually do agree. That's shocking to you, isn't it. Let me show you what I mean.
That's what I'm saying. What you're saying is "if diamat isn't compatible with Christianity, I won't believe in it even if it's true."
Also, when Dagoth talks about God, he means something completely, entirely, utterly different from the Christian triune God. He just means "all things", i.e. eternity, i.e. the infinitely complex, dialectically moving, material universe. So he's something like an advanced Spinozist. The funny thing is that he, as a Marxist, uses Islamic vocabulary to talk about cosmology and ethics, which is really funny, but it doesn't make him religious in a way that would be comparable to yours.
In fact you might want to check out Spinoza. His ethics are a bitch to read, but if you do, you'll learn an incredible amount of things. It's also written for theists, so you won't be offended or anything.
The thing is, once you start thinking a bit philosophically, you notice really quickly that the Biblical account is really a bit primitive and stupid. Either way, you have to come up with an answer for questions like "How can sin exist at all if God is infinite and omnipresent" or "if free will automatically spawns sin, as the story of Lucifer tells us, isn't sin a good thing" or even "isn't Lucifer much cooler than God" and stuff like that, and then it becomes obvious really quickly that biblical literalism is really boring and stupid and incapable of satisfying even the average intellect. Then you have to come up with your own thoughts and ideas, and at one point you'll notice that it's just paradoxical to say that God created the world. God is the world. The world is uncreated and eternal. The world is God, the creator, for everything comes out of its dialectical movement. It is therefore extremely fitting to have a religious degree of respect for how amazing the world is. I do have this respect. If the world cared, I'd sing its praises every day, kind of like I sang worship songs when I was a Christian, only it would be fun this time. But the world does not care, therefore I keep it to myself.
But yeah, since Dagoth's "religion" is really similar to this, I tolerate and respect it. But surely you understand that this cannot extend to tolerance for Christianity.
That's a bit funny now. Of course, his existence doesn't prove anything because he could be misunderstanding either Marxism or his religion. And his "faith" is really just the materialist spirituality thingy I get whenever I think about how awesome the world is (preferably on drugs). He is not an idealist, nor is he a "believer". He has faith in what is real and true, and that's fair enough.
I never tried. If anything I tried to show you how the choice is not "God or diamat" but that the matter is vastly more complicated.
This is an interesting topic as I always wondered how a theist would struggle to bring together their diamat and their religion.
As a lifelong atheist this has never been an issue for me. As someone who is firmly a diamatist( ) I see your dilemma as a dialectical conflict: eventually one will triumph over the other. All I can say is I wouldn't worry about it. I and many other members on this site have changed our opinions on things which we were originally very sure on. This change is rarely something which happens overnight but is a gradual process. Ultimately, if you really do believe in Marxism over God, you won't mind becoming an atheist.
gRed Britain wrote:
It sounds to me like it is the other way for the OP at this point in his life. The idea of abandoning religion is not something which Das is ready to contemplate at the moment. Maybe at some later stage he might have changed, but at the minute it sounds like he would much more readily abandon Marxism than he would theism.
In my opinion, it's probably better that the two exist in some sort of uneasy truce for the time being - even if it isn't completely logical to some of us
Quote:Well did matter just always exist? At least with God conclusions can be made.
Quote:Because it's stupid to say that every Christian is irrational.
Quote:Wah wah wah life is hard! Anyways, he just wants you to do right and does NOT control you. Also, according to my beliefs, he created you, died for you, and loves you. That's reason enough to try to make him happy. Plus, if Marxists think that there is no right and wrong, well then no rational person can be a Marxist. Why don't you just go kill somebody? Screw the proletariat, your fellow man, screw solidarity and peace.
Quote:Again, this just assumes that God doesn't exist. And plus, you're free to reply to this post with useful content, and you're free to not as well.
Quote:Absolute nonsense. What's the church supposed to do, try to incite revolution? Here that'll land you 10 years in prison for just saying that seriously. The churches are just trying to work peacefully within the system. Odds are, most church-goers don't even really know what actual Communism is and don't really see every wrong in the world as a fault of capitalism. In fact, almost nobody does.
Quote:Again, this is irrelevent. We have universal health care in Canada. The church was raising money to help my family pay to stay near me while I was hospitalized. As I mentioned before, most churches aren't staunch Marxists and many aren't well educated about the matter. So what about other causes that are good? Charities and such? Just because they help others peacefully they're not a cause for good? Sure. We have chairites that raise money for children's hospitals, but they must not be a cause for good because they aren't fighting capitalism or curing cancer.
Quote:I'd consider a helpful post one I don't have to disect apart all the time.
Quote:I worship the same Abrahamic God as Dagoth, except I also believe that the Holy Spirit and Jesus are included in the Godhead. So, in actuality, he's not a Muslim, he's a pantheist (I think that's what it's called) that likes Arabic terminology or whatever. I'd like to hear Dagoth say that.
Saying God is everything is basically like saying he's nothing.
Lastly, why do you say stuff like "the Biblical account is really a bit primitive and stupid. Either way, you have to come up with an answer for questions like "How can sin exist at all if God is infinite and omnipresent" or "if free will automatically spawns sin, as the story of Lucifer tells us, isn't sin a good thing" or even "isn't Lucifer much cooler than God" and stuff like that, and then it becomes obvious really quickly that biblical literalism is really boring and stupid and incapable of satisfying even the average intellect." I find that very offensive and completely lacking any thought. Don't make fun of a belief that is followed by a third of the population.
Quote:I want to see what Dagoth thinks.
Quote:Most of your posts are centered around how stupid I must be for believing that there's a greater force, or how the church is a capitalist conspiracy or blah blah blah you're an atheist therefore you're the only one capable logic and reason.
Quote:I won't abandon my belief in communism, but I might have to find a new path to justify religion with communism (not Marxism specifically).
My belief in religion remains unfettered.
EDIT: What about Dialectal Idealism... I don't know much about it, but I would like to believe in some explanation to history... is it at all compatible with communism?
Obviously. We've never observed that matter can come in and out of existence, so why should we assume that it can? There is absolutely no reason to believe it had to be created or something.
Every person is irrational. That doesn't mean we can't try.
"Do as I say or burn in hell" is a pretty strict kind of control if you ask me.
I never asked to be created, I never asked him to die for me, and I don't want his love. That's like saying a woman should submit to a stalker.
I thought you liked dialectical materialism.
So your only reason not to kill people is that you'll be punished if you do? That sounds scary. Why should I kill somebody? It's not like I have any reason to do that. Of course I would, If I had a reason to.
I like solidarity and peace, but that's not because I believe them to be "right".
You don't know much about neuroscience, do you? Our brain determines what we're going to do even before we're consciously aware that there's a decision to make.
I don't want the church to do anything but dissolve.
Pretty much. I mean Marxism isn't a "cause for good" either. Marxism openly demands theft and terror and personal tragedies on a massive scale.
I say it because it's true? These questions are valid and the Bible is completely incapable of answering them. You are displaying a typical defensive reaction, I used to have them all the time: An inquiry is blasphemic, therefore sinful, therefore thinking in that direction can't be admitted, therefore the entire thought has to be dismissed categorically. That's how religious people always react.
It's not rational, or helpful in any way. Are you gonna avoid these questions forever and be a quiet, obedient sheep? Then, communism is indeed not for you at all. Communism is for free people.
If I believed that, I wouldn't be talking to you, now would I? In fact, I think you're really clever, because you've understood uncommonly much of Marxism in an uncommonly short timespan. Cleverer than most atheists. Cleverer than me, because you instantly recognized the absolute incompatibility of diamat and religion, while I tried to reconcile them for years.
But you're still wrong about your God.
About Dagoth's beliefs:
viewtopic.php?f=123&t=50561 <- SE's religion thread, you should check it out.
Relevant quotes from Dagoth:
It's called Hegelianism and it's quite reactionary. Also, Hegel's dialectics does retain God, but like Spinozism (or Dagothism) it stretches the concept so far that any resemblance to Christianity disappears.
Well we're gonna have to disagree here. You do not worship God. You worship a divided, ie reactionary, revision of Jesus' word. The idea of elevating a man to eternal proportions is the height of arrogance and pride. God is god, he has no parts because he encompasses all parts.
No I'm not a pantheist. That is just nature worship. That all things are a part of "God's Creation" does not mean they deserve worship. God is all things but all things are infinitesimal in comparison to God.
Ha! Exactly. God contains all nothingness. He is infinite and eternal. Beginnings and endings are just the foolishnesses of a species trapped in a linear progression of time. Science and our material universe provides all the answers for how to elevate ourselves. This is not a simple desire of our species to survive, this is our eternal duty, this is what we were created to do. Diamat is the great gear that provides momentum for us to revolt and evolve. This is all in religion despite many marxists refusal to see it (fundamentalism is always philosophical blinders) and despite the protests of the supposedly religious people.
He's talking about a literalist view of the biblical account, which is extremely primitive. It hasn't been progressive for like 1500 years.
That's very silly. We all know most "faithful" have never read their holy books nor do they even have a deep grip on their own religious theory. Most atheists are far more learned than your average faithful. This is the direct product of ritualized structure and dogmatic organization. It destroys mass dialogue, the cornerstone of rationalist religious law. Dogma is very unsatisfying philosophically. Fuсk why do you think there are so many atheists? It's the ultra-reactionary character of organized religion. These power structures built to keep the faith pure have turned in on themselves and degrade the intent more and more. It's all very heart-breaking. These reactionary agents of the church are far greater sinners than all the whores and killers to ever have existed. They drive children away from the joy of God. Something few atheists ever re-discover (Booly did it though).
He's right. All that deserves belief can be shown to be true. God doesn't deserve or need belief. Faith, like prayer, is for man. It's for his spiritual evolution.
if you came here to be proven wrong I think you're doing it wrong.
Dialectical idealism doesn't make any sense. Ideas conform to the world just as our bodies have and do. This is basic stuff. If you want to believe in something there's always theoretical physics and the truth.
لَا إِلٰهَ إِلَّا الله مُحَمَّدٌ رَسُولُ الله - يا عمال العالم اتحدوا
Dagoth Ur wrote:
Where? In Buddhism maybe...
I wouldn't say I've rediscovered it. I think the simplistic Christian worldview makes it impossible to experience what you call "the joy of God". I discovered it a few months after renouncing my Christian faith. Right after I'd become an atheist, I was scared to death by the world as it presented itself without the Christian God, the "naked creation", as it were. It's how a Christian perceives the world, and it's extremely ugly, in fact, because things aren't awesome for what they are, but only because our oh-so-awesome "God" created them, so without him, none of their beauty was left. It took me a lot of hard work to understand that this "naked creation" is identical to the creator (using these religious terms makes me cringe. "Creative force" would be better. No, in fact, "where all the syntheses come from" would be best), and that, by taking the Christian creator away, I discovered the real, "divinely" (argh) self-creating world and its awesomeness.
So yeah, I think it's absolutely necessary to get beyond this misguided creator-creation dialectic if you really want to understand and appreciate the world. A world that develops dialectically, driven by its own contradictions, on an infinity of scales in infinite complexity, is so much better than a boring God who creates animals and people and never wastes a thought on black holes, "and behold, it was very good." Booooring. And very disrespectful towards the world, actually. Its raison d'être is not the narcissistic wishes of some old man on a throne. In fact, I'd say Christianity is a terrible blasphemy (ouch, again).
I hate to feel like I'm harping on one point (although it is a very, very, important point) but dogma breeds blasphemy. The world moves, nothing is static, so to try to pigeon-hole the concept of the infinite wholeness/emptiness into literal readings of revelation is beyond absurd. It's like demanding that an elephant can pass through a crack in the sidewalk with space to spare. Most Christians attempt to combat the absurdity of their reading with appeals to authority and historical interpretations. When you understand what a living text is you understand that materialism guides their interpretation first and foremost. The fundamentalists do it unconsciously but if we take it on as a conscious effort it becomes clear that the stories often find near-exact parallels to our constant perils and offer consistently good advice. I didn't say great of course, some parables are less impressive than others, that's just the way things work, rather I'm saying that it will lead to physically healthy advice usually.
لَا إِلٰهَ إِلَّا الله مُحَمَّدٌ رَسُولُ الله - يا عمال العالم اتحدوا
Well, it is caught up in superstition, or a nigh unfathomable web of metaphors. Also it's morally absolutist and quite outdated. It does not tell you how to behave on Facebook, how to do drugs and how to cheat your way through social security. So I would say it really has no relevance to my life at all.
I understand your situation. It is hard to reach out and explore your beliefs without some human contact. I remember , in the days before the internet, feeling like the only socialist, who is also a Christian, around. I belonged to the SPUSA, but it was a long distance relationship at best. My nearest fellow party member was in another state. I too went to the books.
Having said that let me make a few points:
1) Pray. If you believe that Jesus is the Lord of the Universe, than surely he can steer you right in the matters of Diamat. I have trusted Him in these matters and He has not dissapointed.
2) Read, Read, Read - Histories are good, but primary documents are always best.
3) Dialogue - Continue to talk to people about your beliefs. Be prepared for rejection, but note that your worth lay not in your arguments or in the eyes of your critics. I remember having long heated discussions with my wife on these issue. She was raised by lawyers and is an English teacher and believe me it wasn't pretty. But I held on and in the end, she sometimes agrees with me more than she did years ago. Progress!
I hope this is of help. If not, I am sorry. We wrestle with our faith and our beliefs so that we be a fountain to others, not a drain.
Quote:See? This guys gets it. Mabool and Dagoth: I'm tried of you two telling me that Christianity is just completely wrong, because I know that Christianity true, and after really looking into Diamat, honestly, I think that if Marx really made his theories so dependent on Diamat than Marxism is crippled.
Now, as to the specifics of what Mabool said:
Quote:Ok, so it was "just there" doesn't seem any more scientific then the belief in God.
Quote:Ignoring the point again. There are MANY rational Christians.
Quote:"Believe that I died for you (and be truly sorry for your sins) and live forever in paradise.
Quote:Cool, then if you hate life so much then jump off a bridge. Also, God isn't remotely comparable to a stalker.
Quote:I had a lot of misconceptions about it. It's starting to seem ridiculous.
Quote:Oh I forgot Marxists apparently think that anything is ok because of material conditions. Child molestation must be fine in some situations because the kid might be a brat.
Quote:Well then why?
Quote:Why, so there would be less opposition to your beliefs? I'll say it again, "churches aren't a conspiracy".
You guys have to work on your recruitment slogan.
Quote:Have you actually read the entire Bible? You just seem to be acting like a whiny little kid about it who cannot even bother to look at other ideas. I don't want to offend you, but once you get out of school doesn't mean you automatically know everything. You are not the final authority on this matter.
Quote:Thank you. And you seem to be a lot more learned then I am on this matter, but that doesn't mean I can't reason that God exists. In my mind, the existence of God only makes sense, and its hurtful to read that you can't accept that somebody can be rational and believe in God at the same time.
Quote:So they aren't compatible at all?
Quote:Don't tell me what I believe. You and I know there's more to it than "elevating a man to eternal proportions".
Quote:Well, why not just get out there and call yourself an Atheist. Once again, you're assuming you're right and nothing else can be true. I'm tired of that.
Quote:Pfft. If God is all powerful, then of course he can do those things and shape the universe to his will.
Quote:If I told you why I think there are so many atheists, you'd scream bloody murder so I won't bother.
And portraying organized religion as Hitler's Zombie Army of Death, Baby-Killing and Cannibalism is really driving me away from your ideas.
Quote:If I was trying to be proven wrong, then yes, I was doing it wrong because there is not nearly enough on this thread to break my beliefs. I just wanted to know whether I could be a Christian Marxist, and I can't, so I'll go find some more accepting Communists.
Quote:They do, but to say that only the material world exists, and immaterial doesn't exist is easily false.
(I write some fragging enormous post and then the fragging thing crashes on me.)
Dagoth Ur wrote:I wish you wouldn't make silly assertions like this. You have a very "unorthodox" definition on things like this. What do you expect to happen when you make a statement like this to someone who demonstrably insists that he does believe in god?
More reasonably, you say that you have different interpretations of the word "god". i.e. "that you don't worship the same god.
Dagoth Ur wrote:Pantheism is probably the word (in common usage) which is closest to what your professed beliefs are.
Of course you couldn't possibly agree with any body else's definition though. (If only for the sake of simplicity and comprehension).
Obviously, the reason why Das took an interest in your views was because you claimed to have been able to reconcile a version of theism with a version of Marxism ... something which he is personally seeking to do.
Das_ALoveStory wrote:Why do you say that? Is it rational to insist that there are moral absolutes?
Das_ALoveStory wrote:Not believing in any absolute moral truths doesn't automatically entail that you have to abandon all concepts of a moral system. Not every communist is a nihilist like Mabool.
Mabool wrote:"It's not stalking if you love them"
Das_ALoveStory wrote:As much as Marxism insists on being an absolute materialist system which encompasses EVERYTHING, I think it's possible to be a communist while contending something slightly different: while Marxism is useful system for analysing the economic relations of society it is not entirely satisfactory as an absolute system for every possible nuance of existence.
Like, for real. I mean just look at the ten commandments. None of them apply. Like none of them would even be a remotely good idea in my life. Apart from the metaphysical crap, even the ethical stuff is really, really bad: No pictures. Sorry, photography exists. No serving pictures. Oh well, if you put a lot of interpretation into it, you might even get some good thought out of this one, but we all know that Moses is talking about graven idols, so, no relevance unless you live in North Korea. No cursing. lol sorry language is a social construct. Chill once a week. When I can order shit over the internet all the time? Honor your mom and dad, I don't think so, no. No killing? Imperialist wars, do you know them? No adultery? Way to ban an abstract concept that doesn't even have any true content anymore so that Christians of all stripes have to wonder what "adultery" could mean while it's actually just disappeared as a social category. No stealing? File sharing is killing music. No lying? In the age of facebook profiles? No envy, no greed in a class society?
None of this makes any sense at all!!!
edit: A reply to Das will be added to this.
edit: Here it is.
You're on his side, remember? You don't know that Christianity is true.
And, no, Marxism is not crippled. Marxism (unlike Christianity) explains everything. Christianity just gives you a somewhat consistent picture of what the world is like. That's mysticism. Marxism explains it. That's science. No Christian can ever hope to find out what the measurements of the heavenly mansions are. Science is cartographing deep space. The materialist dialectic is omnipresent. I can feel it. I'm a part of it. It enables us to learn, to explore the world, and to think, to ask questions, and to look for answers. You'll never know what the archangel Michael thought when he heard of Lucifer's betrayal. There is no way to find out because there's nothing to explore there, only fantasies. You call that knowledge?
No. Since we've never observed matter being anything other than "just there", it is perfectly reasonable to assume that matter is, quite independently from temporal constraints, eternally and infinitely "just there".
However there is nothing to support the outlandish assumption that the Bible might be literally true. There are innumerably many reasonable arguments against this assumption.
No. There are no rational people. That's some serious hubris. Read Freud.
...where I could have stayed in the first place if you hadn't been such a control freak. Are you shitting me?
I love life. I'd hate life if I had a creator God who created me to get his regular narcissistic praise fix like the disgusting self-centered piece of shit he is.
And in fact, your God is the perfect stalker. You can't escape him. No matter what you do, no matter how much you beg, you will never, ever, be free from his control and supervision. You will never be allowed privacy, or even basic freedom of thought. Or freedom of expression. Or art?
Religion poisons everything.
lol, I'd ask you to explain that if you could.
lol no. lol, no! It's you, it's the Christians who say that! You're the ones whose Bible says to beat your children up if they're brats!
I'd never harm a child because I would feel sorry. Not because it's "wrong", but because the kid is suffering. It's called empathy. That means I would break the biblical rule to discipline my children. Interestingly, that makes me a sinner and a really bad person.
Because they feel nice, just as nice as premarital sex, drug use and chocolate. Which are wrong. Except for chocolate. Which just shows how arbitrary the definitions of right and wrong are.
No, because they brainwash people. Not because they've conspired to do that, but because it's what they naturally do.
Tee hee. Does "Change" sound better, what do you think?
Yes. Have you? Then you might have noticed that it ends. After revelation, the Bible is actually over and if you want to know more, well, then that sucks for you because there is no way to gain any kind of knowledge about the things it describes, because they're not real.
The body of scientific knowledge never ends. That alone makes it a much more trustworthy guide to a neverending universe.
Wait, what? That is your argument? I say something, and you reply with "Well, just because you're out of school doesn't mean you know what you're talking about?" You listen to my argument and then just tell me that I shouldn't think I'm right? Well, why not? You get to think you're right, too, don't you? And why shouldn't I think I'm right when you've just openly admitted that you have no idea how to reply to my arguments?
Oh well. You know what, you shouldn't listen to people who tell you whether or not they are compatible. Just read a lot of stuff from all directions and make up your own mind on stuff. That's always a better idea than just believing in some ideology, or in anything anybody tells you. In the USSR, people had to learn diamat principles by heart at school, and they never wasted a single thought on them. I would respect an educated Christian philosopher much more than these "materialists", because free thought is one of the most important things there are.
tl;dr if you like two things, make them compatible by coming up with ways to explain away their contradictions. We're talking about thought systems here, they behave the way you apply them. You control them, you reproduce them in your head when you use them. You are free to think whatever you want, so I'm sure you'll get a satisfying world view if you just construct it yourself, like everybody should.
The sad thing however is that 90% of the people who do this end up being atheists. Just sayin'
If God is all powerful, then everything that happens is either controlled or permitted by him. It follows that everything that ever happens is because of his will. The universe moves according to God's will. God then has the same relationship to the universe that your brain has to your hand. And just like your brain and your hand are just parts of you, "God" and "the universe" are just parts of the world. Which is uncreated and eternal.
Logic games are neat, but as your reaction will prove, they're not necessarily convincing.
I generally disagree with the idea that you shouldn't listen to what bad people say.
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