Soviet-Empire.com U.S.S.R. and communism historical discussion.
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 11 Dec 2011, 15:01
I think it really started in 1987 because in may 1987
private buisness became legal(but it was illegal to engage other peoples until 1989) before 1987 there was only very slight reforms(similar to the 1965 reform) just like giveing a little more autonomy... I'm sorry that since english isn't my major language so the grammer might be little wrong Last edited by Red Daughter on 12 Dec 2011, 08:57, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Edited thread title to be more grammatically correct and clear. 12 Dec 2011, 03:57
I think it started with a combination of talks between Reagan & Gorbachev, and pressure from both the Polish Solidarity movement and later pressure from the Vatican. With a failing Soviet economy, Gorbachev hoped to do what his successors had done: wait out the storm. Pressure from the outside proved to be too much, and when Poland left, this opened the door for the Baltic states to dissent, and finally Perestroika was allowed to prevent a total and immediate collapse of society as well as the economy.
 12 Dec 2011, 05:00
I argue 1986. This is when Gorbachev began staffing high level offices with large numbers of liberal communists and some outright anti-communists, and when his two chief allies -Shevardnadze and Yakovlev, came to prominence. 1986 was the year that Andrei Gromyko was retired from foreign affairs and replaced by Shevardnadze. Yakovlev, becoming head of the Central Committee's Department of Propaganda in late 1985, began in 1986 to staff the offices of universities, art unions, and media institutions with liberal-minded people, who began their campaign to destroy the public's faith in socialism, in their country and its history soon after, very carefully at first but growing in intensity as the decade came to a close.
In the economic sphere you are correct moonjosh. The 1987 Law on State Enterprise was the first step, giving managers more authority and attempting to decentralize planning. In 1988 the Law on Cooperatives allowed private business, much of it formed by former black marketeers that wanted to legalize their money. 1988 was also the crucial year that the Party secretariat lost its ability to coordinate the economy, resulting in economic chaos shortly thereafter. Ya_Amerikanyets wrote: I think you've interpreted the question wrong comrade. He didn't ask "why" but "when". Anyway I don't think that pressure from Poland had much of a role in the USSR's internal dynamics at all. By 1985 the situation in Poland had stabilized, and some resented Walesa, either for his tendency to give in to pressure or for the strikes' disruptive effects on the Polish economy. With regard to the Soviet economy, it was growing at 3-4% from 1983 on (up from 1.5% average between 1978 and 1982), due in large part to the disciplinary campaigns launched under Andropov, and to smaller modernization campaigns carried out in the fields of infrastructure and industry later on. The 1985 anti-alcohol campaign put a dent in the state budget, but up to the late 1980s growth indicators remained positive in most areas, disrupted, as noted above, by the removal of Party managerial oversight of economic activity. Pressure from outside was only able to play any role in the Soviet collapse because of Gorbachev's personal vanity and his desire to be regarded by the West as a great and noble statesman. Besides, the ability and tendency of Baltic (and other) republics to dissent came as a result of the political and economic policies initiated by the Soviet government, not from pressure from Reagan, the Pope, or anyone else. In other words, it wasn't like Reagan said, "Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall" and Gorbachev, overwhelmed by Western pressure and internal dissent, fearfully said yes. It was more Gorbachev saying "Gee I'm a liberal that really doesn't like our socio-economic system, so I'm gonna haphazardly reform it more along Western social democratic lines, giving virulent anti-communists a dominant voice in society and shitting on our country's entire history. Oh and I really like it when I go to the West and everyone shouts my name ("Gorby, Gorby"), so I'm going to have to sell out all my allies in the Eastern bloc and the third world and hope that Reagan, Thatcher and Kohl help me to recognize the errors of my country's ways -oh and to give us money. " "The thing about capitalism is that it sounds awful on paper and is horrendous in practice. Communism sounds wonderful on paper and when it was put into practice it was done pretty well for what they had to work with." -MiG
12 Dec 2011, 06:08
soviet78 wrote: Well, consider this: the Polish solidarity movement was not immediately put down with Soviet force. This was mainly due to economic reasons. Once the world saw Poland on strike and no military action in response, other countries seem to have been emboldened. Then one of the Baltic states broke away. Which one was it? I think it was Latvia or Lithuania. Anyway, still no Soviet military response. It was after this the Wall came down and the SSSR broke down into the CIS. So really the root of Perestroika happened during this time, because the SSSR had no economic power to police the Eastern Bloc, let alone Russia herself. It was all bluff and no snuff. I heard that during those times gangs of kids were roaming the streets in some cities, and citizens were hiding in their homes behind locked doors because there was no money for even the local police to be paid! 12 Dec 2011, 06:36
Ya_Amerikanyets wrote: 1. Solidarity was not put down by military force because the Polish government made very clear to the USSR that there was no need to do so, not because of economic limitations on the USSR's part. 2. The Eastern Bloc countries weren't emboldened by a lack of response in Poland. Most of them had conservative ML leaderships that were encouraged to begin reforms only when Gorbachev pressured them in the late 1980s (Gorbachev pressured Jaruzelski in Poland as well, by the way). 3. The Baltics began a campaign to break away after Yakovlev visited in August 1988 as the voice of Gorbachev and encouraged them to ask for more autonomy, stating that though defense and foreign policy must be common, the rest "should be up to each republic." This coincided with the removal of conservative republican Party secretaries and their replacement with liberals and political opportunists. Lithuania was the first to break, and members of their Sajudis Popular Front organization have categorized Yakovlev's message and encouragement to be so important that historical time would later become divided into 'pre-Yakovlev' and 'post-Yakovlev'. 4. The USSR was the second economy in the world in 1985. By some individual production indicators they were the first. The idea that the economy was a rusted out shell painted red is conservative American propaganda emanating from the late 1970s. First, after 1945, the USSR was a dangerous enemy because by most indicators their economy was growing at a faster rate than that of the United States. Then in the late 1970s, the country became a failed enemy, even more dangerous because of its hidden economic weaknesses. In reality, the economy needed modernization, computerization and increased discipline, but the so-called 'era of stagnation' from the late 1970s to the early 1980s was not a catastrophe, and did not even see negative economic growth. That Western economists, whose countries experienced crises, recessions and depressions, could call the USSR's economy a failure is really hilarious, given that Soviet economic growth hadn't stopped from 1945 into the 1980s, and economic catastrophe loomed at the exact moment when the Soviets began listening to Western advice on reforming their 'failed' system. American economists in particular failed to mention that their own economy was in large part built on debt, empire, and their country's world reserve currency status, which allowed them to print pieces of paper, hand them to others and to receive actual physical goods in return, and to pump cash into government projects and defense without suffering from inflation like any other country would. 5. The kids roaming the streets was the result of an explosion of crime, the decline of institutions that could accommodate these children, and the general chaos of an socioeconomic and political system collapsing in the late 1980s. "The thing about capitalism is that it sounds awful on paper and is horrendous in practice. Communism sounds wonderful on paper and when it was put into practice it was done pretty well for what they had to work with." -MiG
12 Dec 2011, 16:47
soviet78 wrote: AWESOME. I am always glad to hear the other side of things. Mainly I get my ideas from books and the authors are usually academicians who probably never lived under the systems they talked about. I think in this particular case, the authors were a man & wife team who worked for the Soviet news agency, but defected. So they probably had some reason to mis-represent the truth. |
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