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Serfs' Emancipation Day for Tibet

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Soviet cogitations: 12922
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Sep 2006, 22:05
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
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Post 08 Jan 2011, 06:55
mosfeld wrote:
This is absolutely historically incorrect. Parroting the bourgeois line is not "Marxist", and neither is quoting Sam Marcy on "imperialism", considering that his heirs, the WWP and PSL, both support the reactionary Soviet social-imperialist regime from Krushchev up to Gorbachev and it's imperialist actions in the Warsaw Pact, Ethiopia, Angola and Afghanistan.


Social-Imperialism is a reactionary concept. Proof of this is the PRC's support of the Taliban and UNITA.
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لَا إِلٰهَ إِلَّا الله مُحَمَّدٌ رَسُولُ الله - يا عمال العالم اتحدوا
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Soviet cogitations: 7927
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 19 Mar 2005, 20:08
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Post 08 Jan 2011, 07:05
Pretty sure that the PRC wasn't concerned with the ideas of Mao, especially Social-imperialism under Deng Xiaoping.


Wikipedia article doesn't say anything about support for UNITA besides "Savimbi's early training in China."
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Soviet cogitations: 12922
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Sep 2006, 22:05
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Philosophized
Post 08 Jan 2011, 07:12
Doesn't matter. They used the guise of social-imperialism to 'oppose Soviet Imperialism' in Afghanistan and Angola. Fighting on the side of mujahideen is unforgivable. But again the whole social-imperialism concept was reactionary from the get-go so it's not surprising China ended up supporting reactionary movements.
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لَا إِلٰهَ إِلَّا الله مُحَمَّدٌ رَسُولُ الله - يا عمال العالم اتحدوا
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Soviet cogitations: 7927
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 19 Mar 2005, 20:08
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Post 08 Jan 2011, 07:17
Nice try but Mao's China != post-Mao China unless you want to say that special economic zones, one child policy, and privatization of state enterprises are all Maoist too.
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Soviet cogitations: 12922
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Sep 2006, 22:05
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Post 08 Jan 2011, 07:24
I'm not talking about Maoism but about the Social-Imperialism theory, which was used for decades after Mao's death to support all types of reactionary foreign policy decisions.
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لَا إِلٰهَ إِلَّا الله مُحَمَّدٌ رَسُولُ الله - يا عمال العالم اتحدوا
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Soviet cogitations: 7927
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Post 08 Jan 2011, 07:28
Yeah they couldve said that they are helping the mujahadeen because they wanted to personally see Brezhnev get really angry with them, and Dick Cheney could say that he wants to see Iran invaded so that the Tudeh party rises to triumph, it doesn't matter. In the 1980s the PRC was still rivals with the USSR and wanted to weaken it. It really doesn't matter how they guised their doing this politically.
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Post 08 Jan 2011, 07:33
It does because Social-Imperialism fit perfectly as an excuse. To use your example of Dick Cheney, the neo-con concept of 'bringing democracy to Iraq/Afghanistan' was a reactionary concept from its inception, hence its ability to be used to justify these reactionary invasions. The same can clearly be said of Social-Imperialism. There are parts of Mao I like, attacking other worker states you don't like isn't one of them.
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لَا إِلٰهَ إِلَّا الله مُحَمَّدٌ رَسُولُ الله - يا عمال العالم اتحدوا
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Soviet cogitations: 7927
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 19 Mar 2005, 20:08
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Post 08 Jan 2011, 07:39
It doesn't fit perfectly though. For it to fit perfectly, China would have to be Maoist and actually interested in spreading its Maoist ideology across the world, as they did during the Cultural Revolution. In this case it's just an excuse to pursue aggressive foreign policy.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Sep 2006, 22:05
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Post 08 Jan 2011, 07:45
The Social-Imperialism theory excuses it because they're combating 'imperialism'. I'm not saying the PRC at this point was fully maoist. In fact all they seemed to keep was the reactionary parts.
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لَا إِلٰهَ إِلَّا الله مُحَمَّدٌ رَسُولُ الله - يا عمال العالم اتحدوا
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Soviet cogitations: 7927
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 19 Mar 2005, 20:08
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Post 08 Jan 2011, 07:57
Well the theory itself is not that social-imperialist states should be attacked, it's about the complex way a socialist state functions when it's leadership becomes an elite more interested in expanding its own authority rather than Marxist ideology and thereby becoming more ideologically revisionist to justify its methods. There have been some examples of when during the Cultural Revolution reckless and overzealous foreign policy supported leftist movements just because they were not aligned with the USSR, such as in Guinea-Bissau, but I don't see how this is relevant to Deng's support of the Mujahadeen...?
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Sep 2006, 22:05
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Post 08 Jan 2011, 08:12
It's relevant because the concept of a worker's state being 'imperialist' is absurd. They whole theory is a rationalization of anti-Soviet attitudes.
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Post 08 Jan 2011, 08:15
Sorry Mr. Trotsky, but at that point it ceases to be a workers' state because it is ruled by the interests of the party elite and not the working class.
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Post 08 Jan 2011, 08:17
The Party Elite were proletarian. I special group of workers but still workers.
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Post 08 Jan 2011, 08:23
Economically they were petty-bourgeois or bourgeois considering their incomes and due to this they as individuals had politically a weakened allegiance to the working class, which their revisionism severed completely.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 13 Feb 2008, 15:25
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Post 08 Jan 2011, 08:26
Kirov is right about one thing, Mao's China =/= China post Mao. There are commonalities in policy, but there is a good reason modern China has backed the Americans a lot. It's necessary to maintain a cordial relationship with the West in order to trade and get technology transfers. I don't agree with this policy, but the point is, it's not Maoist.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Sep 2006, 22:05
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Post 08 Jan 2011, 09:34
You seem to be in the same boat as Kirov in thinking that my statements are an attack on Maoism or that my argument has anything to do with these actions being pursued for the advancement of Maoism. I never stated either, and I certainly don't think they were. My point from the beginning was that the social-imperialism theory was, and is, reactionary from the start and this led to reactionary systems of support in the latter half of the 20th. Again this is entirely an issue of the theory of Social-Imperialism, which as far as I know is only a small part of Maoism and one of Mao's stupider ideas.

Kirov wrote:
Economically they were petty-bourgeois or bourgeois considering their incomes and due to this they as individuals had politically a weakened allegiance to the working class, which their revisionism severed completely.


Not until Gorbachev. Also you should know that income is not an indicator of class. The Soviet bureaucracy was entitled, but not bourgeoisie.
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لَا إِلٰهَ إِلَّا الله مُحَمَّدٌ رَسُولُ الله - يا عمال العالم اتحدوا
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 19 Mar 2005, 20:08
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Post 08 Jan 2011, 16:43
No, it was the case since Khrushchev decided to denounce Stalin.

And yes, income does indicate class in this case because it came purely from careerist political activity which was limited to those individuals.

And I mean if you have a problem with Social-Imperialism, you might as well start having a problem with the whole idea of imperialism, because:

J. V. Stalin wrote:
The same must be said of the revolutionary character of national movements in general. The unquestionably revolutionary character of the vast majority of national movements is as relative and peculiar as is the possible revolutionary character of certain particular national movements. The revolutionary character of a national movement under the conditions of imperialist oppression does not necessarily presuppose the existence of proletarian elements in the movement, the existence of a revolutionary or a republican programme of the movement, the existence of a democratic basis of the movement. The struggle that the Emir of Afghanistan is waging for the independence of Afghanistan is objectively a revolutionary struggle, despite the monarchist views of the Emir and his associates, for it weakens, disintegrates and undermines imperialism; whereas the struggle waged by such "desperate" democrats and "Socialists," "revolutionaries" and republicans as, for example, Kerensky and Tsereteli, Renaudel and Scheidemann, Chernov and Dan, Henderson and Clynes, during the imperialist war was a reactionary struggle, for its results was the embellishment, the strengthening, the victory, of imperialism. For the same reasons, the struggle that the Egyptians merchants and bourgeois intellectuals are waging for the independence of Egypt is objectively a revolutionary struggle, despite the bourgeois origin and bourgeois title of the leaders of Egyptian national movement, despite the fact that they are opposed to socialism; whereas the struggle that the British "Labour" Government is waging to preserve Egypt's dependent position is for the same reason a reactionary struggle, despite the proletarian origin and the proletarian title of the members of the government, despite the fact that they are "for" socialism. There is no need to mention the national movement in other, larger, colonial and dependent countries, such as India and China, every step of which along the road to liberation, even if it runs counter to the demands of formal democracy, is a steam-hammer blow at imperialism, i.e., is undoubtedly a revolutionary step.


http://www.marxists.org/reference/archi ... m/ch06.htm
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 06 Jan 2011, 10:37
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Post 17 Jan 2011, 22:06
Quote:
Proof of this is the PRC's support of the Taliban and UNITA.

The PRC's support for the Mujahideen is completely irrelevant at this point since the counter-revolutionary coup happened way back in 1976. Simplifying matters by dumping all the Mujahideen factions into the "Taliban" category is completely inaccurate. There were, for example, Maoists who fought against the Soviet imperialists in Afghanistan, as well.

Quote:
Doesn't matter. They used the guise of social-imperialism to 'oppose Soviet Imperialism' in Afghanistan and Angola.

It actually does matter, because post-socialist China furthered its own agenda under the guise of "opposing Soviet social-imperialism", just like the Soviet revisionists justified their reactionary, imperialist actions under the guise of "Marxism-Leninism". Just because they say their opposing social-imperialism, doesn't mean they are.

Quote:
Fighting on the side of mujahideen is unforgivable.

And siding with the Soviet social-imperialists, when there were uprisings in every single province of Afghanistan against their occupation, is the legitimate "Marxist-Leninist" position?
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Soviet cogitations: 7927
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 19 Mar 2005, 20:08
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Post 10 Feb 2011, 05:21
No, as either position strengthens imperialism, just as in WWI. Is that the right answer?
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Post 10 Feb 2011, 05:57
mosfeld wrote:
There were, for example, Maoists who fought against the Soviet imperialists in Afghanistan, as well.


It wasn't Maoists who instituted extreme anti-woman policies, or won the war against the Russians. It was the Mujahideen, who came together to form the taliban.

mosfeld wrote:
It actually does matter, because post-socialist China furthered its own agenda under the guise of "opposing Soviet social-imperialism", just like the Soviet revisionists justified their reactionary, imperialist actions under the guise of "Marxism-Leninism". Just because they say their opposing social-imperialism, doesn't mean they are.


Fair enough but anti-Soviet attitudes had more to do with this than anything.

mosfeld wrote:
And siding with the Soviet social-imperialists, when there were uprisings in every single province of Afghanistan against their occupation, is the legitimate "Marxist-Leninist" position?


No the Afghanistan situation was entirely bungled by Soviet authorities trying to make the DRA into just one more Moscow-run Soviet puppet. I don't agree with the Soviet response, or their interference in Afghani affairs (which legitimized anti-communist anti-russian sentiments), but I certainly do not support the anti-communist forces that collapsed the DRA leading to one of the most barbaric governments of the twentieth century.
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