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 16 Aug 2010, 08:36
Quote: really, because a small german "libertarians masquerading as left-wing" youtube community pretends to be hitlerite-stalinist it means all nazbols are like that. they also claim to belong to die linke, does that meant that die linke are nazis as well? obviously you ignored the sources i posted from their official website where they denounce racialism and blind russophilia as much as you ignored everything else i wrote or pm-ed to you. even right wing nazbols in russia dont support hitler and so far the NBP clashed with skinheads and others on more than one occasion. most of them are titoist-stalinist as they should be and are being killed by the government on the street each day. we can talk about who collaborated with the nazis though, our french friend here provided more than enough sources on how your trotskysm worked in praxis. Quote: russian CP is more nationalist than NBP. several russian members here can confirm it.  Jugoslavija je bleda slika premrzlega partizana zato je njeno ljudstvo navajeno trpeti zato je njeno ljudstvo pripravljeno umreti. -Via Ofenziva Forum Rules 
Soviet cogitations: 4390
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 16 Jun 2004, 17:30 Politburo 16 Aug 2010, 20:11
OP wrote: I'm not sure how unique one could say Bonapartism is or isn't - but it's something that's been known to happen. I suppose that would depend on how you defined "unique" - it's certainly happened more than once. Arguably the Redmondite movement in Ireland, for instance, was a form of Bonapartism. So far as its relationship to fascism, there are parallels - though bonapartism is not fascism. Trotsky wrote: OP wrote: No, you aren't. He's comparing the defence of the USSR to be as internationally important as the liberation of colonies, which are held by imperialist governments. OP wrote: I don't even know what you're going on about. Trotsky explicitly says, as has been stated numerous times in this thread: World socialist revolution > Protecting the USSR > Reforming the USSR OP wrote: Precisely my point. Even if you can find some kind of crazy person that supports Trotsky and Hitler - and I doubt that very much - it would bare no more relation to Trotsky's theories than Saddam's admiration for Stalin had upon his policies. OP wrote: And I pointed out that your unfounded, outsourced, imaginary writing in which Trotsky said not to fight the Nazis - which he didn't - was absurd. I added weight to this by pointing out he was a Jewish Bolshevik. I really can't imagine what kind of a point you're trying to make by bringing this up over and over. Alis Volat Propriis; Tiocfaidh Ar La; Proletarier Aller Länder, Vereinigt Euch!
 26 Aug 2010, 23:47
Quote: I already responded when I said : "Trotsky believed that it was important to defend USSR, but with a proletarian revolution ! He thought that everything could be done with a "revolution"" And I also quoted Trotsky himself : "The defense of the USSR coincides for us with the preparation of world revolution." So your mathematics are wrong. World proletarian revolution = Defence of the USSR. That's why he said : "We must not lose sight for a single moment of the fact that the question [...] of preserving state property in the means of production in the USSR is subordinate for us to the question of the world proletarian revolution. Trotsky believed that the USSR could not win the war without a worldwide proletarian revolution. He was wrong.   "Mao was just a degenerated Trotsky." Dagoth Ur 
Soviet cogitations: 1384
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 28 Feb 2009, 03:41 Party Member 27 Aug 2010, 03:06
Quote: can you prove it to me? that would be very interesting. Quote: i never realized how trotsky's cooperation with germany was absurd until i was reminded of this fact. truth is, it's still possible to cooperate with those bent on exterminating your race, it's just pretty doubtful. anyway, stalin signed that famous pact and slavs were untermenschen after all. The schizophrenic is the new jew.
27 Aug 2010, 11:32
Quote: TRL pointed it out once. if you check their website you will see articles such as "lets protect russian culture!" and they seem to have the backing of several orthodox clergy members. the exile also mentioned that they made solzhenitsyn member of their party for some reason. i'm also bothered by the fact that they are being a "silent opposition". they also had a NBP banner a while ago on their site before NBP accused zyughanov of cooperating with oligarchs. there were some other stuff i read about them on livejournal when i was still using it. most of the real internationalist communists in russia are either members of AKM or CPSU and NBP lately as well to some extent. these kind of fact of course seem to completely avoid high-class SE intellectuals who fire blind accusations without making a small research on their own and blame NBP of being "hitlerite" on the premise of their flag and nothing else they could really use as a solid proof and avoid answers when you catch them lying. Jugoslavija je bleda slika premrzlega partizana zato je njeno ljudstvo navajeno trpeti zato je njeno ljudstvo pripravljeno umreti. -Via Ofenziva Forum Rules
Soviet cogitations: 4390
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 16 Jun 2004, 17:30 Politburo 27 Aug 2010, 20:42
Quote: Again, the defence of the USSR was more important than the reformation of it; of course the reformation if it has to be done by the people. The people manifest themselves in mass movements. Quote: And every communist should agree that defending the USSR was an important part of preparing for a world revolution. Quote: I really don't see anything wrong with this statement. Quote: I forgot that the USSR was around today. Fascism is the result of international capital; as is capitalism. The USSR proved, unfortunately, to be unable to stand up against international capital. That's just fact. Alis Volat Propriis; Tiocfaidh Ar La; Proletarier Aller Länder, Vereinigt Euch!
Soviet cogitations: 1384
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 28 Feb 2009, 03:41 Party Member 28 Aug 2010, 02:32
Quote: i agree that NBP and MTW are met with such hostility it is pretty annoying. there is no real debate with people reading their text, of course too much of it is in russian. what i meant is that the communist party of russia was more nationalist than the NBP. is that true? The schizophrenic is the new jew.
28 Aug 2010, 03:37
Quote: In a way yes, because you can't overthrow the bureaucracy and "reform" the country without defending the Soviet Union. That's why Trotsky expected the help of a world revolution. Quote: Trotsky said "The defence of the USSR coincides for us with the prepration of world revolution". It means that only a revolution can save socialism in USSR. If I used the mathemes you like so much I would say : defence of the USSR = preparation of world revolution. He did not said that "defending the USSR was an important part of preparing for a world revolution". It would imply to defend USSR, to "prepare" a revolution, and thus the revolution would have to be postponed! You wrote exactly the contrary of what Trotsky said because you make a distinction between the "defence" and the "revolution". Trotsky would have said: "rejection of revolution in the name of “defense of the USSR” would sentence the USSR to final decomposition and doom." He explains: "Our defense of the USSR is carried on under the slogan: “For Socialism! For the world revolution! Against Stalin!”. Quote: Hitler also thought that the USSR would fall in a few weeks, whas he right ?? Of course he was not. I was speaking about the war, and so was Trotsky when he wrote his pamphlet. Quote: The USSR proved that she was perfectly able to stand up against international capital. She crushed the Nazi scum, and she would have crushed any capitalist invasion. The fact that she lose finally does not prove that she was "unable" to win. That's just logics. Quote: As had the Communist Party in France. And of course we protect the culture of our country, the long work of the People, and we consider ourselves as "patriots". Quote: Why absurd ? A leninist must do everything he can to help the revolution, even concluding an alliance with the Devil. Molotov made a pact with Ribbentrop, but his wife was jewish ! Last edited by OP-Bagration on 28 Aug 2010, 04:03, edited 1 time in total.
"Mao was just a degenerated Trotsky." Dagoth Ur 28 Aug 2010, 03:54
OP-Bagration wrote:Don't let reality stand in the way of your logic. If 'Socialism In One Country' was a success, then I don't understand why the Soviet Union is not here today.
Soviet cogitations: 1384
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 28 Feb 2009, 03:41 Party Member 28 Aug 2010, 04:17
Quote: of course, i said that the ennemy of my ennemy is my friend, is a pretty damn leninist thing to do. that said, why would trotsky support nazi germany when nazi germany is obviously stronger than the ussr and also quite an ennemy of trotsky. The schizophrenic is the new jew.
28 Aug 2010, 04:22
Quote: But the communists did not build "socialism in one country". Do you want a list of all the socialist countries ? There is no logics in your argument. I could also say: If lenin was right, I don't understand why the Soviet Union is not here today. The fall of the Soviet Union have necessarily many causes, but the communists have proven that it is possible to face capitalism, to build a very strong socialist country and to obtain many victories. Quote: Who said that Trotsky "supported" Nazi Germany ? He never did so, at least subjectively. "Mao was just a degenerated Trotsky." Dagoth Ur 28 Aug 2010, 11:46
Quote: much of that text can be translated quite accurately with google translate. well, as i said above; Quote: also NBP is far more tolerant to titoists than CPRF. Jugoslavija je bleda slika premrzlega partizana zato je njeno ljudstvo navajeno trpeti zato je njeno ljudstvo pripravljeno umreti. -Via Ofenziva Forum Rules 28 Aug 2010, 15:17
The main basis of fascist ideology is the "neither right nor left" watchword. By pretending to synthesise nazism and bolchevism, the Nazbol party is indeed a fascist organization. And their whish to create an Eurasian empire is far more bourgeois and dangerous than the Russian CP's chauvinism. We must not tolerate fascism, and I don't even understand how SE can let nazbol advocators freely spread their venom.
"Mao was just a degenerated Trotsky." Dagoth Ur 
Soviet cogitations: 4779
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 12 May 2010, 07:43 Ideology: Other Leftist Politburo 28 Aug 2010, 19:06
Quote: Um... Moris has been around for quite a bit, and while I have not read all of his posts, I do not recall having found him say anything offensive, racist, or anything resembling fascistic, so I doubt that he's spreading "venom" here. Not to mention that the National Bolshevik groups do not comprise a homogeneous entity, so there would be different tendencies within National Bolshevism as a whole. From what I have seen, Morie does consider himself a National Bolshevist as indicated in the "Ideology" section of his profile, but he is leftist and definitely anti-fascist. “Conservatism is the blind and fear-filled worship of dead radicals” - Mark Twain
28 Aug 2010, 19:12
I would much rather have Nazbols than MTWists. In fact, I have no problem with Nazbolism.
Soviet cogitations: 9619
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 18 Apr 2010, 04:44 Ideology: Marxism-Leninism Embalmed 28 Aug 2010, 19:30
Fitzy wrote: There are a lot more Nazbols than MTWists. Personally, I'd rather have a minuscule internet-based fan club of MTWism than a thousands-strong gang of Fascists patrolling the streets. 28 Aug 2010, 22:22
Yeah but at least they're proles. What's hard is supporting a group of self-hating white bourgeoisie.
 لَا إِلٰهَ إِلَّا الله مُحَمَّدٌ رَسُولُ الله - يا عمال العالم اتحدوا 28 Aug 2010, 22:44
Quote: There is different tendencies in fascism : Nazism, Petainism, Doriotism, Franquism and so on. It seems you have a lot to learn about it. A fascist is not necessarily violent or racist. He can be a "good guy", even a pacifist (the French Leagues were pacifist before the war). But he will never be anything else than a valet of the capital. We have a kind of nazbol group in my country called "Equality & reconciliation". If you look at their website (you don't even have to understand French), you would say at first glance that they are socialists. On the top left you can see comrade Che, comrade Fidel, comrade Chavez, Malcolm X, comrade Sankara, and even the symbol of masonry !! On the right, De Gaulle's call to resist Nazis, the symbol of the Republic (the phrygian) and their big boss, Alain Soral ((he used to be a member of the CP). However, in 2007 E&R joined the National Front, a fascist and racist party. And what is MTW ? "Mao was just a degenerated Trotsky." Dagoth Ur 28 Aug 2010, 23:35
Quote: me, a valet of capital? alright stalinist, how about this; your boss tried to create a coup in my country because we took the path of democratic revolution and encouraged border incidents across the country which resulted in several deaths. he also broke a deal with the americans to abandon our greek comrades (general marcos) which resulted in greece being left to the dogs. dont tell me i am a valet of capital, acolyte of informbiro. my grandfather was one of the first partisans and in my family we have several national heroes who died in partisan service. i am working with several "people" who were top guns in former communist state against revisionism rightist and fascist (white guardist) parties are conducting. dont presume that you know me because i can presume the same. i assure you i am quite loyal to titoism. things i do for the goal are putting my well-being in danger. what are you doing besides attending party meetings in your eurocommunist party? Quote: first of all that is the symbol on the dollar bill or the symbol of the new world order. as you can see there's a black stripe superimposed on it, meaning that they oppose it. what's wrong with freemasons anyway? we have a member here who is a member of them, does that makes him a valet of capital as well? Quote: why should i care what a french party does? they're not on my side anyway, if they want to join NF that's their problem. as i heard PCF praised free-market, that could be a reason for not joining them, but as i said, i dont care about a french party which is very far from my ideology. they dont even call themselves nazbol party. more likely they are social-nationalist party as i havent seen official NBP collaborating with them or having any contacts with them for that matter(you know, the on which used to have its banner of CPRF website for a long time). i live next to italy and i read often about fascist attacks on our people there, i know damn well even today what fascism is, my granduncle was sent to a fascist concentration camp. i have seen several stalinist members advocate alliance with fascists here though though... Jugoslavija je bleda slika premrzlega partizana zato je njeno ljudstvo navajeno trpeti zato je njeno ljudstvo pripravljeno umreti. -Via Ofenziva Forum Rules 29 Aug 2010, 00:24
Quote: Comrade Maurice ? He was a sweetheart ! And Tito led the attacks againt our glorious Party in 1947. Quote: Do you mean Tito was also a nazbol ? Quote:I wasn't criticizing masonry, I didn't saw the stripe ! Quote: I was explaining to comrade Kommissar_KW that clothes do not make the man. Quote: They can't. Any reference to nazism is strictly prohibited in France. Quote: Quote: Then we are granduncle brothers. You should follow the path of the partisans and continue the fight against fascism. I dont think nazbolism is socialist, whatever they pretend to be. Their name and their logo is absolutely shocking, and this is a great insult to all the men who died to shoot down the beast. "Mao was just a degenerated Trotsky." Dagoth Ur
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