Soviet cogitations: 5437
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 28 Sep 2009, 00:56 Ideology: Democratic Socialism Unperson
I've been thinking about the GULAG system recently, or rather, about things like convict labour. I read an article about prison overcrowding in the UK the other day, and about how people are getting themselves arrested because they prefer prison over the outside (failures of capitalism in praxis, ftw). Then I remembered how Stalin built a canal with convict labour, and I thought that it sounded like a brilliant idea.
Dunno, maybe I'm being naive about it, but I often hear people I know complain about the way that convicted criminals don't do anything useful other than eat taxpayer's money.
A work camp has multiple benefits over prisons:work helps convicts to rehabilitate,and the whole society benefits from their work.
Never have been a fan of forced labour. Reminds me of chattel slavery and that was inefficent and replaced by the wage worker.
![]() "By what standard of morality can the violence used by a slave to break his chains be considered the same as the violence of a slave master?" - Walter Rodney
The problem with most labor camps is that they are operated punitively rather than in an attempt to instill a labor value and more importantly personal value in convicts. I've never seen the value in working men half to death especially not when you're trying to stress the value of labor to them.
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Soviet cogitations: 4954
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 13 Feb 2008, 15:25 Ideology: Other Leftist Politburo
The idea of GULAG's is good in principal. There are jails where prisoners will do jobs like sewing or carpentry for a small wage. The money they get can be used to buy small luxuries (like confectionary) which aren't normally available to them. I don't think that's a bad idea. However, I don't agree with using prison labour for construction work. It was discontinued in the Soviet Union mainly because the work quality was very poor compared to a properly trained and employed construction crew. I imagine this would be the same anywhere else.
Agreed. I've always been a fan of the idea of putting them in charge of producing their own food. Directly benefitting themselves and fostering cooperation. This provides for all kinds of jobs like farming, ranching, and all of the production of turning that into food. And the inevitable surplus they produce can be sold locally with the proceeds being equally distributed, more or less.
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Use them for unskilled labor.
In general, it's dubious whether a modern socialist state could have work camps because the whole world would hate us. But letting prisoners work is a good idea - it would be like capitalism without having to spend money on wages. "Don't know why i'm still surprised with this shit anyway." - Loz
Belomorkanal was built solely by GULAG prisoners(but 100 000 or more of them died...why?)
Most of them were released and let free,or had their terms shortened. (They should have come back) respected and proud of themselves because of this giant endeavor. And shoveling earth is a perfect way for stress and trauma relief(i know that 'cause that's what i do in the summer )
I'm a fan of penal colonies where prisoners are sent to a tropical island where they will perform agricultural work during their sentence and this would cut the cost of production, as variable costs (wages) go down. This will be beneficial to society if these people were removed from the society and placed in area of discipline. This should be their debt to society as they have transgressed the laws of the state and deserve to punished for it.
I think programs that make convicts clean up roads and things of that nature are worthwhile. Does that constitute as forced labor?
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If the alternative is punishments and increased jail time the way it is in the US, yes.
Z
Quote: I'm sure there are many tropical islands just waiting for penal colonies...
I'd rather use them as holiday homes for party cadres.
"Don't know why i'm still surprised with this shit anyway." - Loz
Boobs,Booze,Debauchery,Drugs,Paradise,Party,Palms,Peasants,Rock,Workers.
Everything in tropical Working-class healing facility - "Comrade Anna Karenina" Loz wrote: You can just clear the inhabitants by covertly dumping them on the American coast and move the prisoners to the new island where they will perform labour. They could make my rum, light up my cigar and make me some breakfast with antidotes of course because some will try to take you out. Ah, I'll be livin' the tropical prisoner governors lifestyle... Quote: This argument isn't true. The Gulags indeed produced some value ($3'500'000'000). But the costs where higher. The camps never produced any profit. You could indeed say they produced raw material. But you can't say the society had any benefit of it. Learn, Learn, Learn - Vladimir Lenin
You're playing Tropico 3 i presume?
Soviet cogitations: 3765
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 11 Nov 2009, 07:13 Ideology: Other Leftist Politburo
I support the concept of the GULAG, I just wish that their was a way that the prisoners could learn to take pride in the work that they provide, instead of feeling like it is forced labor (even though it is).
![]() Quote: Bullshit. Where did you get this value? Costs of GULAG labor were significantly lower than costs of "regular" labor,the facilities were minimal and it was unpaid,forced labor there(they sometimes did get some money for cigarettes or soap but that's more less that) Quote: I read the dutch wikipedia. It says that because the labour done in the gulags wasn't free labour, it's by definition less productive than free labour. That would be the main reason why the labour would after all don't produce any profit. And secondly (because of the system of Frenkel) the prisoners already knew if they would die, so they didn't worked that hard anymore. I translated the section with Google Translate: Quote: Learn, Learn, Learn - Vladimir Lenin
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