Mao - Mass-Murderer??

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Mao's GLF was an attempt to implement Stalin's planning but it failed since China was in a way worse shape than Mao had anticipated.

At least Nehruvism holds that one of Mao's biggest miscalculations was his assumption that a large scale, sophisticated national industry could evolve through a series of small scale communal industrial mills, which didn't work out. He applied the agricultural model of evolution onto industry.

Another thing I want to draw your attention to is the realiability of Mao's deputies. He had good realiable ones like Zhou En Lai (up until early 60s at least). But how's about the likes of Xiaoping & Co? Who found their way to prominence during Mao's leadership? Did his major deputies share the same ideas for China as Mao did? Were they as loyal to "the cause" as Chairman Mao?

What's your dig on all that, comrade, since you know the PRC in good detail.

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there isn't any "HOW TO IMPLEMENT SOCIALISM 101" manual out there, it's fully understandable.

I agree. BUt there objective economic possibilities that should be known to any semi decent economist / infra planner.

Agriculture evolves from the bottom- top whereas industry from top - bottom. If you want national industry, the ONLY way to achieve it in a Socialist framework (whether it's Juche, Stalinism, Maoism, Titoism, Nasserism etc)., is by expanding upon the already established industrial units in urban centres in a phased manner.

And China most certainly had solid industrial expertise in its cities even before Mao took over. You can't do a bottom-top w/ industry, comrade, capitalist or Socialist.

And by doing a bottom-top development model on industry, you are effectively putting your agricultural sector in jeapordy as well.

And Mao most certainly wansn't a fool. Nor was he a sellout. I again, am forced to think that a good % of his influencial deputies save a few committed ones, deliberately misfed him w/ policy. Looking at how Xiaoping's China has turned out, I wouldn't be surprised if a good % of Mao's deputies, especially on the finance & economic wings wouldn't want to see his policies succeed.

Stalin never had to deal with such BS- at least inside the USSR- for the most part. I guess you could say Mao had it "harder" that way...whatever you say, even in Xiaoping's earlier works, Xiaoping envisioned the PDS to be commercially run (albeit by the State largely- though he allowed corporate MNCs later on) rather than as a direct provider of goods & services to the public.

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But how's about the likes of Xiaoping & Co? Who found their way to prominence during Mao's leadership? Did his major deputies share the same ideas for China as Mao did? Were they as loyal to "the cause" as Chairman Mao?

Truth be told, I can't provide you with a proper answer. Due to the power struggle within the CPC many stories and perspectives have been made and it's extremely hard to hand out "the truth". What I personally understand from the situation, which may be wrong, is that there were two big "factions" within the CPC. On one hand you had Mao, the Gang of Four etc, and on the other you hand Xiaoping, Jintao etc. The difference was that both "camps" had different takes on how to develop the economical situation in PRC.

Mao's economical failure more or less boosted the others into a "winning" lead within the CPC. Xiaoping etc wanted to "liberalize" the economy a bit and take advantage of EFZ's for the time being so that the infrastructure could develop whereas Mao and the Gang of Four thought this was brutal and wrong. To put it down in a simplified manner, one could claim that Mao was being too emotional and hateful against the disasters caused by capitalism.

Anyhow, it's hard to say if they've deteriorated from the socialist path yet seeing as how they are constantly purging the party for PDS-thieves etc. I personally think they are still on the socialist path and that this is just a phase to build themselves up, something which is constantly confirmed by the actions the CPC continus to take along with their own inofficial AND official line.

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Anyhow, it's hard to say if they've deteriorated from the socialist path yet seeing as how they are constantly purging the party for PDS-thieves etc.

The PDS is being done away with, pretty openly too. During Mao's days, for example, villages such as Huaxi (Jiangsu province) were key contributors to the PDS. Now, their village Chief- a CPC cadre- has turned away from this, has openly divorced his village from the PDS (as a supplier) and has bagged a couple of lucrative export contracts instead.

Huaxi was a well known PDS contributor ever since Mao's early days. Here's what's being done to Huaxi in the 90s onwards:

http://www.hindu.com/2007/02/06/stories ... 540900.htm

If you read thru the lines, the village dissasociated itself w/ the PDS and embarked upon private sector export contracts. That defies anything remotely Socialist.

In Mao's days, the village leader would've been sent to firing squad. Now, for dismantling Huaxi from the PDS and for retuning them towards exports, this village chief is being hailed as a "MODEL CPC WORKER."

It's really hard to believe the PRC's heading towards SOcialism. Yes, PDS theft is punishable technically, but what's the use when the PDS itself is being aggressively dismantled as a matter of policy?

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In Mao's days, the village leader would've been sent to firing squad. Now, for dismantling Huaxi from the PDS and for retuning them towards exports, this village chief is being hailed as a "MODEL CPC WORKER."

It's really hard to believe the PRC's heading towards SOcialism. Yes, PDS theft is punishable technically, but what's the use when the PDS itself is being aggressively dismantled as a matter of policy?

I completely understand and share your opinion. Things would have been way differently if Mao was about. But then again, despite such events I still give PRC the benefit of the doubt here. The dismantling of the PDS isn't as "complete" or on such a full-scale as it should be if it was to be dismantled. After spending many hours analyzing the situation I came to the conclusion that this could just as well be a "fake" move to lure in more money into the PRC so the infrastructure boosts itself even further.

Keep in mind that capitalism has to occur in some way or the other and it has to evolve to its fullest extent before socialism can be implemented. In a way I still choose to hold my stalemate position here and not judge them yet. You could turn this around and claim that such steps are necessary to keep closing in on the goal of turning into a socialist superpower that can crush down the imperialists with an economic embargo lasting a month OR you could also claim that they have deteriorated from the plan and gone bourgeois.

As I keep saying, it's impossible to tell for 100% certainty. We all just need to take their word for it, analyze it and if it makes sense - support them in the causes we believe in.

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I never heard of any purge in China, or any bloody rampage Mao went on.

? Cultural revolution? Those not dedicated toward Maoism were executed. Cue the Maoists!

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well, like with stalin, the western media blames famine on the leader..

Well....it was his fault. Democratic centralism leaves only the leader to blame.


And whats with the mistrust of Oxford? What's wrong with Oxford? The moment we start abandoning our allegiance to accepted knowledge authorities is the moment we become barbaric teenagers. Most professors at universities are not conservative capitalists...and so why would there be a motive on their part to distort history in favor of the West? Almost every book I've ever read on British history written by a British person was just a long tale of how Britain sucked. Same goes for America, Germany, and the USSR.

Where's the motive to deceive the world? I don't see it. I have seen plenty of motives on the part of government institutions which try to change what happened and deceive people...but not universities.


The only problem with Western text is that it is all individualistic. It is centered around personal subjective beliefs with subjective interpretations of history. There are many in the academic world today who want to push for a singular historical narrative...by which historians sit down and agree when, where, and why something happened. But this is getting off topic....

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You know the book is also been ridiculed by non-marxist academics?

Excellent observation. LOOK FOR CRITICISM! If you see something in academics that you think sounds silly, find reviews on the work from other academics to check for acceptability and validity. That's the wonders of academia. Generally if I find more than 4 sources to denounce the book and support my position, I'll stick with my opinion. Otherwise you MUST question yourself. You don't have the answers to the universe in your head.

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Do they base this off of the famines?

I have read research papers (albet not very good ones) that tried to assert that the strategic triangle formed by China with the U.S. contributed towards another famine and another million lives at the hands of Mao. I thought it was total trash, biased sources and no counter arguments.

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And whats with the mistrust of Oxford? What's wrong with Oxford?

It's just mainstream Western (and capitalist Eastern) academic sources tend to give a distorted outlook on the Socialist world. Just as mainstream academic sources in the Socialist world did the same when analysing the capitalist West.

I personally haven't looked into Oxford's treatment of Mao's China, but I have looked into many of their analyses which is often blatantly false. Their analyses on Socialist Vs. Capitalist India is best described as...demented. I'll restrict it to 1 word as to not drift off point too terribly.

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The moment we start abandoning our allegiance to accepted knowledge authorities

According to the "accepted knowledge authorities" at one point- the world was flat. Denying that amounted to insanity. Yet, it took only a maverick explorer to prove them wrong.

In a more modern context, I am sure you know that the "accepted knowledge authorities" at the time didn't have a very kind outlook on the future of Lenin's Soviet Russia. Again, they were proven wrong as Russia emerged from a semi feudal backwater state to a world power.

And in an even more recent context, the "accepted knowledge authorities" keep telling us smoking a joint is one of the most disasterous things that can happen to one's life, hence the mammoth prohibition attempts, but if I believed that, I might as well believe the wooly mammoth isin't extinct yet lol.

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Most professors at universities are not conservative capitalists...and so why would there be a motive on their part to distort history in favor of the West?

Yet most of them haven't lived or worked in a Socialist society- which makes their knowledge almost reliant on "established facts" put forth by third party sources.

And folks who've lived in a Socialist society and feel strongly for it, usually don't emigrate from their home locales, at least in my opinion.

Tell me, can you find archived statistics on the DPRK in Oxford (since you bought it up)? I don't mean South Korean "experts" and North Korean "refugees"- but authentic, DPRK research data- is it available @ Oxford? No!

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Well....it was his fault. Democratic centralism leaves only the leader to blame.

You can thus accuse Mao of being a below par statesman at the most. Mao wanted to evolve his industry the same way he did agriculture- and it didn't work out & backfired. That does not go on to say Mao was sending people into concentration camps to be gassed or that Mao made a hobby of collecting human skulls for amusement.

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It's just mainstream Western (and capitalist Eastern) academic sources tend to give a distorted outlook on the Socialist world.

You speak as though Western academia is conglomerated into one system......like socialism. Did you forget that they are capitalist and thus individualist? There is no 'one narrative' in the West because its all about subjective interpretation. A majority of the academics are liberally minded anyway....and the only reason they aren't revolutionary is because they are smart enough to know that they exist in a capitalist world and thus have to find SOME way to survive.

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Their analyses on Socialist Vs. Capitalist India is best described as...demented.

Who in the hell is they??? Again you're speaking as if just because one idiot says something bad about Socialism....ALL the west is forever DAMNED in their quest for knowledge. Who had a crappy analysis of India...?? THEN JUST DON"T READ HIM! There are THOUSANDS of historians. Just to throw them all out for their location is the dumbest thing I could ever hear.

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According to the "accepted knowledge authorities" at one point- the world was flat. Denying that amounted to insanity. Yet, it took only a maverick explorer to prove them wrong.

Yes...if you don't trust the authorities it should be your LIFE MISSION to prove them wrong. What are you doing? Debating on an online forum. Your next response to this will be something like this: you are smart enough to know that you exist in a capitalist world and are incapable of taking full action. Proving my first point about subjectivity.

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the "accepted knowledge authorities" keep telling us smoking a joint is one of the most disasterous things that can happen to one's life

When did they tell you that? And the government is not an 'accepted knowledge authority.' It is NEVER an 'accepted knowledge of authority.' Something contrary to many authoritarian Communists on this board.

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Yet most of them haven't lived or worked in a Socialist society

HAH! And you have? NO ONE has worked in a truly socialist society. If you call the USSR socialist...you're gonna get the revisionists fighting with the stalinists...who are fighting with the trotskiites...etc.....so even in a subjective sense you're never gonna get everyone to agree on where a socialist state existed...so who are we to judge people who haven't? We don't have the right to judge them.

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usually don't emigrate from their home locales, at least in my opinion.

Well...if you like your opinion to be thick wool over your eyes...thats you're own deal. In reality the fall of the wall ushered in over 3.5 million immigrants from East to West. There were about 300,000 who went from West to East.

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Tell me, can you find archived statistics on the DPRK in Oxford (since you bought it up)? I don't mean South Korean "experts" and North Korean "refugees"- but authentic, DPRK research data- is it available @ Oxford? No!

Why don't you blame the country itself!!! They won't LET the west have access to their information! You need to learn where to point your finger my friend. The West has been eager to get knowledge about the Communist world for SO long. China won't even let us have certain information. Try again.

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You can thus accuse Mao of being a below par statesman at the most. Mao wanted to evolve his industry the same way he did agriculture- and it didn't work out & backfired. That does not go on to say Mao was sending people into concentration camps to be gassed or that Mao made a hobby of collecting human skulls for amusement.

You're right. Mao believed in what he was doing and did things according to his beliefs. They backfired. No I will never condemn him for doing something he believed in....but I will condemn his belief for not being in the best interests for the Working class...and society as a whole.

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Who in the hell is they???

The Western Academia (keeping with the point of my post)

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Again you're speaking as if just because one idiot says something bad about Socialism....ALL the west is forever DAMNED in their quest for knowledge.

If ONE guy said something, I would most certainly point it out. But when an entire academic system says the same, isin't it safe to assume that the mainstream "source of knowledge" is flawed in analysis?

I am not saying ALL of the West is forever damned- dunno how you got that idea. All I'm saying is that mainstream Western analysis of Socialist India was flawed.

I'm merely suggesting that the Westerner's (or Easterner's) quest for knowledge lies on the aircraft tix rather than base their judgements on what the "mainstream" research tells them.

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Who had a crappy analysis of India...??

Mainstream Western academia...

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THEN JUST DON"T READ HIM! There are THOUSANDS of historians. Just to throw them all out for their location is the dumbest thing I could ever hear.

Very well then, find me ONE unbiased, neutral & objective analysis of Socialist India in the Western academia...

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You speak as though Western academia is conglomerated into one system......like socialism.

Sure academia gets conglamorated on certain key issues. Say- the treatment of Stalin in the Western MAINSTREAM academic world.

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and the only reason they aren't revolutionary is because they are smart enough to know that they exist in a capitalist world and thus have to find SOME way to survive.

WHere does this line fit into?

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Yes...if you don't trust the authorities it should be your LIFE MISSION to prove them wrong

Dude, I don't mean to sound rude or anything- but who are you to tell me what I should do w/ my life

Why should anything be my life mission? If I don't trust the authorities, I simply won't bank on too much official & mainstream sources as an analytical foundation- instead I'll just take a bike ride to my nearest Air India office (or Lufthansa if I lived in the West).

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In reality the fall of the wall ushered in over 3.5 million immigrants from East to West. There were about 300,000 who went from West to East.

What does that have to do with what I said?

Ok. What was the population of East Germany? What % of the GDR's population did those 3.5 million constitute? Either ways, your response doesn't address my point, which is:

People who were happy w/ their lives in a Socialist setup don't emigrate. The ones who do emigrate are usually the system's strongest critiques. So, this would compound the issue of trying to find a prof (in a Western institution) who would present you with a neutral & objective outlook on what life was like in a Socialist country...

And monetary rewards for skilled personnel is lower in Socialist economies (I'll use the word "economy" over "society" since you believe there has been no Socialist society in the history of the world) and the sense that they have obligatory public sector duties, factors captalist economies use to lure skilled personnel from SOcialist locales...

You probably already know that in Socialist economies, the cost of skill acquisition is 0. As in, people don't have to take student loans and pay exhorbidant University fees to acquire skill. As a tradeoff, they're expected to contribute something back to the public sector. This is why monetary rewards are lower for skilled folks in Socialist economies...

I never argued that the movement of folks from Capitalist -> Socialist systems is > than immigration of folks from SOcialist -> Capitalist systems. If I did, your response would be a valid one...

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They won't LET the west have access to their information!

The blanket sanctions on the DPRK was imposed by the West, not the other way around. Why would the North Koreans allow say- India full info access while blocking the same to the West? You mean to say, the West won't be able to get info out of NK from India, if they so desired?

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HAH! And you have? NO ONE has worked in a truly socialist society.

Oh brother, not this again!!!

I haven't lived in a "Truly (whatever the hell that means)" Socialist society other than in shroom trips lol, but I have lived in a Socialist economy- as in one that is defined by the prevailing property relations.

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Mao believed in what he was doing and did things according to his beliefs

No, Mao believed in what he was doing and did things to facilitate industrialization in China similar to the USSR. Except that he evolved his industry in the same model as he did agriculture. But his end goal was the same- the industrialization of China- which was in the best interests of the proletarian contingents there, I believe...

Unlike Saloth Sar, Mao never suggested "year zero" or anything ludicrous like that. What Mao was trying to accomplish is pretty much the textbook Socialist model of development- agriculture-> industry-> services...

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But when an entire academic system says the same

Find me where every single professor from every single university agrees on one single thing against socialism.

I except your results to have credentials from every single professor...stating their absolute hatred for socialism and/or their firm dedication toward Capitalism...even if that means distorting history. Show me. You can't.

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I am not saying ALL of the West is forever damned- dunno how you got that idea. All I'm saying is that mainstream Western analysis of Socialist India was flawed.

But you are! You're asserting that there is an accepted narrative...a SINGLE HISTORY in which all of Western academia agrees with. that is complete NONSENSE! That is something socialists would strive for!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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I'm merely suggesting that the Westerner's (or Easterner's) quest for knowledge lies on the aircraft tix rather than base their judgements on what the "mainstream" research tells them.

Could you rephrase that I seriously have no clue what you're saying here.

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Mainstream Western academia...

WHO IN THE ACADEMIA SMARTASS??!?!?!?!? AGAIN. stop labeling Western Academics as ONE SYSTEM!!!!!

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Very well then, find me ONE unbiased, neutral & objective analysis of Socialist India in the Western academia...

First of all, I study 20th century Russian and German history....so Indian history is not my specialty. Second, YOU go out and find one yourself since whatever I present to you will have MY bias in it. I shouldn't have to prove to you that Academia is something that should be respected and trusted...you need to grow up and accept that yourself. Besides, the idea of objectivity when interpreting history is nonsense....even Fontis will stand behind that. Objectivity is only relevant to FACT. NEVER have I experienced a distortion of fact (names and dates) or seen an inconsistency in my 5 years of work.

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Sure academia gets conglamorated on certain key issues. Say- the treatment of Stalin in the Western MAINSTREAM academic world.

Don't confuse academia with what the Media puts out. Every single course on Stalin here at UCSB that I have witnessed, or reviewed has been on his contributions as a war general, and his successes in rebuilding the broken USSR during the 1930s. They RARELY bring up negatives about him...and when they do it is all statistical rather than dogmatic. Granted California and the UC system is a little more liberal than most....Oxford is WAY more liberal (and at the same time honored) than UCSB ever will be.

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WHere does this line fit into?

Don't understand it do you? The professors that I've met who are NOT revolutionary but liberal have told me that the ONLY thing that stopped them in their younger years from revolting against the system....is the dream that hopefully they could write for history and change the way people approached subjects like socialism/communism/market values/totalitarianism/capitalism. The world is not out to get you.

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Dude, I don't mean to sound rude or anything- but who are you to tell me what I should do w/ my life

I'm not...you're the one complaining that authority and academia sucks. But I'm the one seeing you not do anything about it.

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People who were happy w/ their lives in a Socialist setup don't emigrate.

Thats like saying a dog won't sleep where it shits....and it likes to eat food. WHY WOULD THEY LEAVE IF THEY HAD IT GOOD? eh?

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The ones who do emigrate are usually the system's strongest critiques

You mean the majority? The group the system of socialism is supposed to support?

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a neutral & objective outlook on what life was like in a Socialist country...

Again it does not exist. Objectivity has no place in history aside from fact. If you really want numbers from East Germany, say so and I will bring out my class work book.

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The blanket sanctions on the DPRK was imposed by the West

Because of militaristic deviations from UN security council agreements! (Oh I forgot, you believe they don't have to follow that). Fact remains, North Korea refuses to give us statistical(fact) information on their country.

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but I have lived in a Socialist economy- as in one that is defined by the prevailing property relations.

Same argument. no you didn't. You lived in a 'semi' socialist state. I doubt you ever lived in a single party state. I also doubt you live in a system whereby there is universal health care as well as a subsidized job industry. The closest you can get to is Britain...or Germany. Either way...the state uses MARKET forces to determine production and output. Thats closer to STATE CAPITALISM than it is SOCIALISM.

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No, Mao believed in what he was doing

You said no you this: "Mao believed in what he was doing and did things according to his beliefs". Its the same thing. Whatever came after is irrelevant. We both said he did what he believed in. No more semantics...we'll get the admins all over us.

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Find me where every single professor from every single university agrees on one single thing against socialism

Why don't you find me a single prof or a mainstream Western resource that treats any Socialist (or semi Socialist) system neutrally?

Find me one on Socialist India, please...(since that's something I can personally attest to)

Even in a PG political economy course in a "prestegious" institute like the UCLA, you had "Soviet experts" claiming "the USSR broke up because they spent too much on military, spent too much on their cities & starved their villages" etc., etc. For crying out loud, ADB / WB publications say the same thing too.

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But you are!

NO I AM NOT.

Just get yourself to the nearest airline tix office, fly to the place and study it yourself, rather than relying on some half baked "expert."

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Could you rephrase that I seriously have no clue what you're saying here.

Do some backpacking travel to a society / system you want to analyse rather than rely on info from a 3rd party source.

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Second, YOU go out and find one yourself since whatever I present to you will have MY bias in it.

Please do present me what you have. My objective here isin't to start a stupid flame war. If you have shown me a Western mainstream resource that presents Socialist India in an objective & neutral light, I'd take back EVERYTHING I said. And I've hunted for 10+ years to find such a source, and quite frankly- I've failed.

It will be great if a fellow comrade succeded where I failed. Again, please show a neutral & credible source on Socialist India.

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I shouldn't have to prove to you that Academia is something that should be respected and trusted...you need to grow up and accept that yourself.

Well, according to academia, a Socialist economy can't be efficiently implemented because it relies on a set of matrix algebra equations that are simply way too complex given human constraints. Are you going to buy that?

That's the official reasoning in LSE, btw.

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The world is not out to get you.

I wish I could've said that to India in 1989, after the USSR collapsed. Mongolia. The Central Asian SSRs. Raped to death by the capitalist establishment and by white collar thieves such as the IMF / WB.

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But I'm the one seeing you not do anything about it.

I did. I started basing my research more directly- through travel & direct interaction & surveys w/ local folks...it teaches you to see things more critically. That's about the best I can do man.

What do you want me to do? Throw molotov cocktails on college campus lawns Seriously comrade...

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WHY WOULD THEY LEAVE IF THEY HAD IT GOOD? eh?

Simple.

Because some are more self centred than others, and take advantage of the 0 cost of quality education & skill acquisition in a Socialist society and the monetary rewards of a Capitalist one. This is little better than petty theiving.

Speaking of which, why do people steal Car stereo systems in places like DIAMOND BAR (a relatively upscale locale in California), San Jose, Riverside, Corona, Palm Springs etc? Even if they have enough to eat and live comfortably?

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You mean the majority? The group the system of socialism is supposed to support?

So, 3.5 million people constituted the majority of East Germany?

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Because of militaristic deviations from UN security council agreements!

Militaristic deviations?! South Korea is an illegitimate entity, in itself, if you look into early Korean history objectively.

The "founding father" of Korea- Kim Il Sung- was the only local element who could organize any local resistance to the Japanese. And he did. The "founding father" of South Korea- Rhee- during Japanese occupation times was in the provincial government in SHANGHAI. Where he was kicked out for $$ embezzlement.

He fled to the US till the end of WWII, where he was kissing methodist Church rear for $$$- while Korean women were getting sent to rape camps & while his nation was subject to brutal Japanese occupation. Kim Il Sung stood his ground and fought for the Koreans.

Yet- after WWII, the US arrogantly puts this stooge in charge of a partitioned geographic entity, without even consulting its legitimate founding father- who fought for the liberation of Korea from day 1 of the occupation. That's as illegal as international law goes. Rhee did NOTHING for Korea, and lived in the US- working for a methodist Church. And yet he was put as leader by the US military.

And you accuse the DPRK of "militaristic deviations." That amounts to a foreign invasion, senor. And incidentially, Rhee was expelled from the SOUTH KOREAN government for FINANCIAL EMBEZZLEMENT and lived in exlile in the US- and died there. There was a popular rebellion in South Korea for reunification that was put down by the South Korean military & police, assisted by the USMPs at times. So, the KPA logically moved in to comply with the wishes of the local population- who were subject to another occupation force- the US...after the Japanese.

The occupiers turn to the UN- who invades from the rear. And forcefully divides a population. I mean- what kind of international protocol is this, seriously? Don't forget- many in the "North" had family members in the "South" before this dastardly forced partitioning.

The forceful partition extended to complete bombardment & destruction of civilian infrastructure in the North- sometimes using massive fire bomb attacks on urban civilian areas like Pyongyang & Yongbouyang.

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Oh I forgot, you believe they don't have to follow that

OF COURSE THEY SHOULDN'T AND NEITHER SHOULD MY COUNTRY, if it has any shard of self respect.

If you haven't forgotten, the so called "UN security council" declared Salazar's Portugal as the legimitate authority over Goa. And here's a Goa map:

http://www.portcities.org.uk/london/upl ... al_400.gif

I mean seriously- how did they arrive at that one? Aren't we a bit far away from home, capitan?

And don't forget, the UN forcefully invaded Korea, when it was acting in its self defense. If the PLA just barged into the US and declared the West Coast "the Poeple's Republics of America"- the US military isin't going to hoist red carpet welcomes, I guarantee you that.

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I also doubt you live in a system whereby there is universal health care as well as a subsidized job industry

Ok- for sake of civility- let's just call it a "semi Socialist" state.

But it did have universal health care up until 1989. The standards & quality you'd receive in a GH PSU (Government Hospital Public Sector Unit) were far superior to what you'd get in a capitalist city like Metro Manila, Bangkok etc. And you got it for free.

And the PSU also supplemented the ayurvedic course of medicine. What do you mean by the "subsidized job industry?" Till 1989...

The Steel authority of India was the nation's #1 steel producer. It was a PSU owned- collectively. The nation's sole banking solutions provider was SBI (State Bank of India)- which was also a PSU. And our nation's main dairy produce provider was- and still is- amul- a cooperative.

http://www.amul.com/organisation.html

Cut it short- the cooperatives & the PSUs were the nation's employment generators. And SME / MME activity was done in a smaller scale as Amul as well. That's about as subsidized as you can get. The farmers were HEAVILY subsidized by the State (Free phone, free electricity, free land, free home, free health & schooling, free ferts, free bus passes).

And agrarian folk & subsistence level folk availed of the Free Land Use Act- which makes it illegal to put a price tag on the natural economy. Only (semi)Socialist India (till 89), Vietnam, the USSR, Yugoslavia & DPRK had this provision afforded to its citizens. Socialist economies like the GDR didn't have this...

To put things in perspective, despite the corporate onslaught & the continual dismantling of the PSUs & the PDS- our Gini coefficient is still 32.5. China's at 44 and the US' at 45.

Put it this way- as a young, "fresh out of the box" UG fresher (Government University was free till 89) at maybe 19-20 (our UG courses are 3 years to enable more people to enter the educational field) would get a salary of Rs. 800-1000 a month (70s, early 80s). It was enough to afford you a family of 4 (spouse, 2 kids) under pretty comfortable conditions. And PSUs were bound by lifetime employment acts, which comrade Nehru made them obligatory towards.

Or a young farmer could claim some acres based off the size of his family and start his career as a farmer w/o any financial burden w/ 100% state support. Life was good, comrade. Though my family personally lost HUGE sums during Socialist land reform progs of the 50s.

And though my grandpa had the chance to flee to the UK- he never did. And we lived through a good, solid, yet simple Socialist (semi Socialist) system.

The point of all this is:

If you can't rely on mainstream Western academia sources for a relatively "liberal" Socialist society like India, I doubt you can rely on it for an accurate pic on a more radically different society like Mao's PRC.

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Why don't you find me a single prof or a mainstream Western resource that treats any Socialist (or semi Socialist) system neutrally?

Will someone else explain to Arif about WHY neutrality does not exist when interpreting history? ANYONE?

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Even in a PG political economy course in a "prestegious" institute like the UCLA, you had "Soviet experts" claiming "the USSR broke up because they spent too much on military, spent too much on their cities & starved their villages"

This is a quote from my notes from an undergraduate history course called "History of the Cold War, History 191C" by Professor T. Hasegawa, the West Coast's supposed first authority on Cold War studies since 1993. :

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How to define the 'cold war'.
1917-1930: ideological theory; communism vs. capitalism
1945-1989: political theory; superpower vs. superpower
ideology plays little role in negotiating between powers after 1945.

Who was responsible for the Cold War?
Traditional Narrative: The USSR was inherently expansionist in its ideological approach to politics. Later, Stalin's policy + theory was the direct cause of the Cold War.

Post Revisionist narrative: The U.S. was in particularly responsible because of its aggressive antagonism toward the USSR and its allies during the post-war period.
Hasegawa accepts the post-revisionist narrative as truth. Traditional narratives were created PRIOR TO THE END OF THE COLD WAR, AND THUS WERE BIASED IN PERSPECTIVE

That was from a class over 2 years ago.

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half baked "expert."

hah

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Do some backpacking travel to a society / system you want to analyse rather than rely on info from a 3rd party source.

I will agree this is a better way to obtain the information (primary source), however it is not always attainable. If I left to go backpacking I'd loose my career right now as a grad student.

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Please do present me what you have.

You already read it above.

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Well, according to academia, a Socialist economy can't be efficiently implemented

Nope it doesn't say that. Read the book "Constructing Socialism" by Raymond Stokes. He wrote an excellent analysis of the East German economic system and wrote about how it was more of the political drive and division of the nation that hurt socialism the most, than the efficient economy. I wrote my senior thesis on that book and got an A.(I can even give you a copy)

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I did. I started basing my research more directly- through travel & direct interaction & surveys w/ local folks

You backpacked through India and they taught you all this?

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Because some are more self centred than others

PLEASE. We're human beings...we're all self centered and you are PROVING it by thinking that you aren't. Its the nature of the beast. Socialism is the solution. Remember the old jingle jangle?

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So, 3.5 million people constituted the majority of East Germany?

According to my notes it constituted 68% of East Germany.

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Militaristic deviations?! South Korea is an illegitimate entity, in itself, if you look into early Korean history objectively.

This is true, if the UN would accept its own inconsistencies it should not recognize the South....but we cannot fight inconsistencies with MORE inconsistencies.

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I will agree this is a better way to obtain the information (primary source), however it is not always attainable. If I left to go backpacking I'd loose my career right now as a grad student.

...or gain a couple of units of University credit from it Try to organise a sabatical. A self financed one would be ideal. If your case is strong enough- most Universities in Calif would agree at a PG level. That you $$$ the trip and do research, and get a good chunk of University credit. Ever tried that? For the most part you need no more than airfare, public trans and local stay which is quite cheap.

I sure did my share of travelling out of PG in the US PG-UNIV's the BEST time to go on self funded travel and research trips for credits...

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The U.S. was in particularly responsible because of its aggressive antagonism toward the USSR and its allies during the post-war period

What's the take on Mao's China?

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He wrote an excellent analysis of the East German economic system and wrote about how it was more of the political drive and division of the nation that hurt socialism the most, than the efficient economy.

Well, you did have "FRG" backed by the West as neigbours, running a capitalist system. They made "social reforms" to keep the labour content. But ran a NATO alogned (politically) and economically capitalist system.

They contributed to IMF/ WB etc., and you know how "aid" progs go. So, they had a more cash generating economy. The East Germans on the other hand had a more public sector economy. Obviously, there's more inequality of $$$ in the FRG than in the GDR. This would lure skilled professionals from the GDR to move into the FRG.

As in take advantage of the public education system & flee the country without repaying back in work & service- for financial rewards as a merc. That's PDS theft & the wall was constructed to prevent that. These are some of the ground realiies Socialist economies deal with.

We had to deal with the same issues in 50s, instead of a wall, we just taxed & priced international air travel severely & converted alot of air assets into cargo & logistics- which was sensible.

Politics had nothing to do with the "Wall"- it was to prevent skilled labour from engaging in PDS theft for petty self centred financial gains.

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PLEASE. We're human beings...we're all self centered and you are PROVING it by thinking that you aren't. Its the nature of the beast. Socialism is the solution. Remember the old jingle jangle?

Yeah. I'm self centred as in I look out for myself to live comfortably for sure. But there is such a thing called bare decency.

If you were educated by the PDS, availed of free high quality education for relatively 0 cost, and emigrated just for financial gains instead of joining the PSU locally or doing coop work and contributing something back to the system which saw you through a good, solid education- which would cost you an arm and a leg in a capitalist locale.

Don't forget- more than 400 million people + are directly benefitted by the PDS.To benefit from it & abandon it simply for petty self centred monetary gain is sort of like stealing from something which provided for you.

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According to my notes it constituted 68% of East Germany

.

You're talking about the migration that followed the FRG-GDR unification- not about the migration during the times the GDR's PSU's were going strong.

A major economic weakness the GDR had was that a good % of its external trade & input material relied upon the Soviet Union. Rail was a large industrial commodity the GDR produced. During the 70s, DPRK was it's largest purchaser. Most trains in NK's metros are East German. Trade was disrupted after 1984- when the USSR started cutting back on industrial fuel supply to the DPRK.

The DPRK & the GDR shared the same external weakness, but the DPRK managed to survive & is recovering (a bit slowly though). There's no way in hell 3.5 million folks attempted to cross over to the FRG during the GDR's working years (before early 80s).

Why did the East Germans migrate in unification time? Because maybe factories like Trabant, Wartburg, and the former DDR PSUs like Postal service, national airlines etc., were defunct by the time "unification" happened?? And most of East Germany's working population consists of industrial labourers, if my memory serves me correctly.

So obviously, they'd migrate to locales where they can make ends meet. And care to remind me how the DDR economy went defunct? Volumes of PSU assets (state run firms) were liquidated to embrace McCapitalism at rock bottom but volume transaction prices.

They were made defunct for liquification. And it happened. Ever seen a Brezhnevite USSR / DDR business PO??? ?? ?

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This is true, if the UN would accept its own inconsistencies it should not recognize the South....but we cannot fight inconsistencies with MORE inconsistencies.

What's so inconsistent about modern Korean history? And what aspect of the DPRK / PLA involvement constitutes an "inconsistencies" against "reasonable norms" ?

Either ways- reasonably speaking, I wouldn't call Mao a mass murderer. He was a failed statesman, maybe. but not a mass murderer. No evidence suggests he orchasterated those deaths out of personal & cultish fanaticism. He was trying to achieve a sound, solid economic objective (industrialization). Which is what any semi sane Socialist regardless of whatever "sphere" would do...

Everything you said about the GDR has nicks and flaws throughout it. I'll prolly never convince you otherwise but whatever I'll point them out.

First though,

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What's the take on Mao's China?

your request was:

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Why don't you find me a single prof or a mainstream Western resource that treats any Socialist (or semi Socialist) system neutrally?

Granted neutrality is impossible, i gave you treatment of 'any' Socialist system.

Primarily what was wrong with your analysis (in my opinion) is your perspective on the wall.

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Politics had nothing to do with the "Wall"- it was to prevent skilled labour from engaging in PDS theft for petty self centred financial gains.

While politics did have little to do with it...to say it was to 'stop people from being petty self centered thieves' is not only anger-based, but also shows your OWN mistrust of the masses. Next we'll be seeing an electoral college in YOUR country.

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If you were educated by the PDS, availed of free high quality education for relatively 0 cost, and emigrated just for financial gains instead of joining the PSU locally or doing coop work and contributing something back to the system which saw you through a good, solid education

I find it hard to believe you got a good solid education if you have such a strong mistrust and dislike of 'Western Academia' and think its some big conglomerate associated with Capitalism directly. Like its a government conspiracy or something stupid.

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Don't forget- more than 400 million people + are directly benefitted by the PDS.To benefit from it & abandon it simply for petty self centred monetary gain is sort of like stealing from something which provided for you.

Good for them! More power to them!

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You're talking about the migration that followed the FRG-GDR unification- not about the migration during the times the GDR's PSU's were going strong.

You mean when the wall was up?

Just go read the book, you'll even like it I assure you. It's so socialist in its wording you'll understand what Stokes is saying. Or don't trust me and don't open yourself up to new ideas...the choice is yours. but you've already made it.

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You mean when the wall was up?

Just go read the book, you'll even like it I assure you. It's so socialist in its wording you'll understand what Stokes is saying. Or don't trust me and don't open yourself up to new ideas...the choice is yours. but you've already made it.

You mean to say- the majority of East GErmans wanted to migrate to the West at all points of the GDR's history, ever since the construction of the wall? If people wanted to migrate to FR Germany that bad, they'd have over-run the Berlin wall MUCH earlier than the late 80s. And we would've perhaps witnessed the first anti Socialist revolution in the heart of the "Socialist world" (Warsaw Pact) just as we witnessed 2 major anti capitalist revolts in th heart of the anti Socialist world (SEATO run South Vietnam, Bautista's Cuba).

If such large scale dissatisfaction was the case all throughout rather than after the mid 80s, then the East German state would've ceased to exist long before 1989, going by common sense. Superpowers & the military can't sustain systems without popular support.

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I find it hard to believe you got a good solid education if you have such a strong mistrust and dislike of 'Western Academia' and think its some big conglomerate associated with Capitalism directly. Like its a government conspiracy or something stupid.

I was referring more of a technical education not a political one. I don't "dislike" Western academia- most of their analyses on Socialist economies is flawed, though.

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While politics did have little to do with it...to say it was to 'stop people from being petty self centered thieves' is not only anger-based, but also shows your OWN mistrust of the masses.

Even if both you and I went on top of Mount Everest and shouted "PDS thieving shouldn't exist"- it still will, even if you run the most egalitarian of societies. You can either be oblivious to that ground reality or face it realistically. Hoping that PDS theft won't exist is like hoping that robbery won't exist.

Or rather, it's a grim realization that PDS thieves will exist in any Socialist society, no matter how egalitarian. And steps must be taken actively to combat it. Which was why the wall was built. Likewise, in India we SEVERELY barred air travel in Socialist days to a point where emigrating through air (the only way of reaching the West) was almost impossible. Yet- that didn't do any harm to our country, other than deny a few greedy back stabbing vultures a BMW and a seaside villa in LA. Oh how evil...

If people got educated at relatively 0 cost by a system, they have an inherent obligation to put something back into the system which made it possible, instead of going gold hunting after taking advantage of 0 cost skill acquisition, wouldn't you think?

In capitalistic societies, gold hunting is not only considered the norm, but is also a barometer to be labeled as "successful." So, barring luxury movements wasn't an issue those systems had to deal with.

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I find it hard to believe you got a good solid education if you have such a strong mistrust and dislike of 'Western Academia' and think its some big conglomerate associated with Capitalism directly. Like its a government conspiracy or something stupid.

This is exactly what I dislike about the way you post UCSBSoviet.

I dislike 'Western Academia' as well, probably more so than arif does because I'm forced to experience it. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with my education. Truth be told, I actually changed to medicine simply because I was too fed up with the BS the universities preach about "Western supremacy" as I like to call it.

You'd be surprised of how well set up the bourgeois system is in all of us who live in western countries. Did you know that the FIRST word children are taught at kindergarten is "mine" ?

Now, you could be ignorant and respond with using their excuse or you could open your eyes and realize that we're all bourgeios2thebone.

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I find it hard to believe you got a good solid education if you have such a strong mistrust and dislike of 'Western Academia' and think its some big conglomerate associated with Capitalism directly. Like its a government conspiracy or something stupid.

In a strictly technical perspective, even in a supposedly global institute like UCLA, I never found the terms: PSE, PSU & PDS find their way inside a supposedly analytical ECONOMIC textbook...(when discussing Socialist systems).

Even the head prof of the econ department didn't know the difference between a PSU & a PSE. And he had no clue what a PDS was. The PDS, PSU & PSE are the building blocks of ANY Socialist economy. And none of those concepts figure their way inside a mainstream Western academic textbook, journal or research paper.

I mean seriously- is there any use talking about how a motor car functions in detail without discussing the chassis, engine and say- transmission system? The main social dilemma facing socialist societies- mainly PDS theft- is grossly if not completely- ignored in almost all (if not all) Western academic analyses.

As far as UCLA went and also USC, many "Soviet experts"- who supposedly worked for the CIA & countless Soviet centric think tanks- had no clue as to what constituted a PDS theft, leave alone have knowledge on what penalties PDS theft carried across different Socialist (or semi SOcialist) systems.

Understanding how a PDS works will give clearer & a lot more objective insight as to what happened / happens in societies like the DPRK, DDR, etc., etc.

Now- I never said that those who subscribe to Western academia must be shot by firing squad or sent to gulags. I only suggested that Western academia isin't too objective in its treatment of the various Socialist economic models out there.

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If people wanted to migrate to FR Germany that bad, they'd have over-run the Berlin wall MUCH earlier than the late 80s.

Not true and you know it. Psh...what a bunch of hogwash. Why would people run towards guns?

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If such large scale dissatisfaction was the case all throughout rather than after the mid 80s, then the East German state would've ceased to exist long before 1989, going by common sense.

What the hell makes you think these people were using common sense?? They were scared of their government!

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Superpowers & the military can't sustain systems without popular support.

The U.S. is doing an EXCELLENT job at it my friend.

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BS the universities preach about "Western supremacy" as I like to call it.

Go to a better university, because any respectable university would never talk about "western supremacy" aside from maybe "Western Civilization" courses which discuss how technology put the West ahead of all other nations (however All of Europe is included in this, not just the U.S.)

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You'd be surprised of how well set up the bourgeois system is in all of us who live in western countries. Did you know that the FIRST word children are taught at kindergarten is "mine" ?

A) No I wouldn't be surprised...I'm here right now. B) Prove that is what they teach all kids first...because from what I'm aware of...kids can speak before Kindergarten (i'm sorry if you didn't).....and usually their first word is mommy or daddy.

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Now, you could be ignorant and respond with using their excuse or you could open your eyes and realize that we're all bourgeios2thebone.

You're calling me ignorant for seeking information. Then you call me even more ignorant for not seeking the "right" information. Weren't you the one complaining about subjectivity? YOU WANT TRUTH OR RIGHT? TAKE PHILOSOPHY. WE'RE DISCUSSING HISTORY, FACT.

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even in a supposedly global institute like UCLA

What the hell is a global institute?

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I never found the terms: PSE, PSU & PDS find their way inside a supposedly analytical ECONOMIC textbook...(when discussing Socialist systems).

How many books did you check? Certainly not the hundreds of thousands written by hundreds of thousands of people with hundreds of thousands of opposing viewpoints....Please. You guys read one thing and think everyone agrees to it. Its you're nature...you're Socialists. I'm one to, but I'm smart enough to realize that we don't live in a socialist world.

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Even the head prof of the econ department didn't know the difference between a PSU & a PSE.

You went to UCLA and asked these questions? Who did you ask? Which professors? I'll contact them immediately. (I have direct access to all UC college departmental info as a grad student)

If theres anything that I feel the West is missing in its analysis of Marxism and Communism its that they never explain the diamat.

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As far as UCLA went and also USC, many "Soviet experts"

Again...who did you speak to? I can have them on the forum in less than a week.

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I only suggested that Western academia isin't too objective in its treatment of the various Socialist economic models out there.

Did you read the section of my notes from a history class covering the socialist period? THE PROFESSOR FEELS THAT TRADITIONAL NARRATIVES ARE BIASED SINCE THEY WERE FORGED PRIOR TO THE END OF THE CONFLICT. He thus feels the U.S. was the primary antagonist in the Cold War conflict. You telling me this is bastardizing history? I'm telling you its REWRITING HISTORY TO MAKE IT CORRECT.

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Prove that is what they teach all kids first...because from what I'm aware of...kids can speak before Kindergarten (i'm sorry if you didn't).....and usually their first word is mommy or daddy.

NO WAY!
I thought everyone learned to talk/walk/eat/shit/piss/drink/sleep at kindergarten!!

RELAX Fontis. - Babs

lol...go ahead and call me an idiot with nothing else to say.

No actual response today Fontis?

You're the one that told me they teach kids to say 'mine' first. And now you're being sarcastically surprised that I say that kids learn how to speak prior? Wow way to red herring the argument. Booya

Just remember I'm not calling anyone an idiot.

No, my point was that you're trying to impose some sort of stupid sarcasm onto what I posted.

You perfectly understand what I meant. So with such intelligence-insulting-replies, I automatically tag you further into the line of "teletubbies".