does god exist ?

Laibach, would you like to share this evidence of gods existence with us?

No, I would not. It's of a personal nature and probably wouldn't mean anything to you or even those capable of rational thought.

Youre just afraid to realize that your thinking is magical. If you never submit your justification for criticism, you will often be wrong. Very ignorant.

My thinking is magical.

Don't be resentful of the fact that you aren't capable of magical thought... or any other kind of thought for that matter.

So you admit you are incapable of rationality!

I admit you're incapable of rationality.... or anything else that requires a brain.

Your'e boring me.

funny, I've always found your antics quite entertaining.

Fitzy, it's not that. Some things people are incapable of getting into words right. Has that never happened to you, where you just don't know how to say something?

Laibach, you've been putting on the "I'm better than some of you" thing. Don't look down on people if you can help. At best don't act like they're "lesser" to you. You're probably being more rational now than Fitzy in my opinion, but that doesn't make you more important than him or smarter or anything.

Anyhow...

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I agree with you. I think they are more egotistic and arrogant. I'm talking about spirituality, not religion.

Spiritual, religious, whatever. Unspiritual people are not more arrogant either.

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No... if you have no reason to believe in it, then you are not arrogant. I do have a reason to believe in a higher power. Therefore were I to deny its existence, that would make me arrogant.

How so? That would just make you stupid, denying something you knew or had reason to know that you admit to having is true. But not arrogant, not prideful.

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You might be.... I don't know. I am in no position to judge you whatsoever. If I made the implication that I find you arrogant for that reason, then I apologize.

You're in a better position to judge me than the vast majority of people on this earth. I don't mind if you take a guess.

Ideally I'm against judgements as they tend to degerate into labels, but there's times to make judgements or even say your be st guess.

I'm glad you don't find me arrogant. So who IS arrogant, in relation to spirituality.

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Well my personal higher power or conception of it doesn't judge you and loves you no matter what... even if you burn my house down. My higher power even loves Fitzy. But that's MY higher power. No, you shouldn't let MY higher power decide for you... even though I know that was a sarcastic rhetorical question. You should let YOUR higher power decide for you... or in your case... dogmatic socialist doctrine, or the Holy Spirit of Karl Marx, or whatever it may be that works for you.

H'ain't nothin' dogmatic about my socialist doctrine. It's all logic based, materialistically based.

So a person's higher power should be the one to judge them, and this higher power is what people choose? Do you recognize the existence of multiple higher powers or do you just leave it at "people can think what they want and I'll think what I want"?

Also, if this spiritual gap can be filled with something that is not spiritual, why do you assert that it is in fact a spiritual gap?

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Of course not. I don't expect you to. I only think you should keep an open mind. Be willing to believe in a God were such a God to reach down from the Heavens and smite thee or turn your car into a giant marshmallow or whatever. I agree that you have no reason to believe in a God based on the lack of evidence. I'm just saying that you shouldn't be unwilling to change your mind at some point in the future were the evidence to suggest otherwise.

Oh, I do. I am not God, probably. I don't know everything. If it ever becomes most reasonable to believe in God I will. I can say right now I don't expect it to, but I'm open. I'm open to laissez faire economics if I can know it makes the most sense.

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What does the Pope have to do with this? I hate the Pope.

Well, I was using the Pope to mean spiritual figures at large. Although I don't like the new Pope either. The last one was alright, I could say some good things about him, but the new one is just silly.

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I think you're misunderstanding me, buddy. I'm not saying it's anyone else's place to choose anyone's belief but their own. I'm not calling you or any other agnostic arrogant. I only believe that atheists... or people who believe that the existence of any sort of god is impossible, are in general.... arrogant. I think it's arrogant to not believe in God simply because you think it's the Marxist thing to do and you're afraid that your commie friends are going to give you shit for it. If you HONESTLY believe that there is NOTHING out there.... that the earth just sporadically appeared along with the rest of the universe from a spontaneous explosion and that you are the be all, end all power of all the galaxies that span across our universe, then cool.... Go with it.

First off, I AM an athiest. There is no God. It is theoretically possible for there to be a God, but I still believe that's not the case.

Also, I began to question my faith some years ago, before I had even looked into Marxism seriously or read a word of objection to religion on a Marxist basis. I believe the only authentic commie writing I had read was Principles of Communism. As I began to lose my faith, Marxism gave me many of the answers I was looking for; why so many people believe, why religion permeates society so much. It even gave insight into why I believed what I did when I was younger. But if I had never heard the name of Marx, I think I'd still be atheist. I can't be sure. I certainly wouldn't be very "spiritual."

You keep saying that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.” It isn't arrogant to believe something just to fit in. If anything it's the opposite of arrogance; complacency.

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Maybe it seems silly to me, I'll admit. But I couldn't call you arrogant. And if that's what you truly believe, then I applaud you for being true to yourself.

You're beliefs seem silly to me too. It's a mutual lack of understanding. But, I agree, better to say you believe what you believe than to pretend to believe or believe you believe something that you do not actually believe.

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As Patricio said though... the way I see it, when you talk to yourself, God is just the thing that you swear by. And as long as someone believes in a God, there will always be one because God is a metaphysical being.

I don't understand this. I understand the pragmatic "Well, it doesn't really matter if God is real as long the effects are the same." I object to that somewhat, but I got it. But what's the rest of it?

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Laibach, you've been putting on the "I'm better than some of you" thing. Don't look down on people if you can help. At best don't act like they're "lesser" to you.

I'm really not though... I'm sorry if you're getting that impression.

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You're probably being more rational now than Fitzy in my opinion, but that doesn't make you more important than him or smarter or anything.

More important... no... smarter... I think so....

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Spiritual, religious, whatever.

Not whatever... I'm talking about spiritual, not religious... If you can't see the difference then there is no point in our discussing this.

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Unspiritual people are not more arrogant either.

No... I'm saying that if you openly deny what you feel from the heart, you're arrogant... spiritual or not.

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How so? That would just make you stupid, denying something you knew or had reason to know that you admit to having is true. But not arrogant, not prideful.

I'm, sorry but I'm just not following you here.

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I'm glad you don't find me arrogant. So who IS arrogant, in relation to spirituality.

In the most simple way I am capable of explaining it, I find those who rule out the possibility of some greater force, simply because they haven't had any proof of one themselves.

Maybe this will help explain how I feel.

"I have not seen any proof of any existence of a God whatsoever.... maybe one exists but I don't believe in it." NOT ARROGANT

"I have not seen any proof of any existence of a God whatsoever.... there is no such thing as a god and anyone who believes in a god is a stupid fool and should be drown in feces... end of story." ARROGANT

Does that make sense?

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H'ain't nothin' dogmatic about my socialist doctrine. It's all logic based, materialistically based.

ok, ok.... excuuuuuuusse me..... logical and matericalistically based socialist doctrine then.

cool?

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So a person's higher power should be the one to judge them, and this higher power is what people choose?

YES!

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Do you recognize the existence of multiple higher powers

Me, personally? I believe God exists in every living and non living thing, so perhaps.... does that answer your question?

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or do you just leave it at "people can think what they want and I'll think what I want"?

that's EXACTLY what I believe.

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Also, if this spiritual gap can be filled with something that is not spiritual, why do you assert that it is in fact a spiritual gap?

because I personally believe that the only way to fill that gap completely is with spirituality. Some people can get by just fine with filling that gap with non spiritual things however. Maybe people don't have a spiritual gap and I'm just full of shit. These are all possibilities. I'm only sharing my personal theory/philosophy with you, regardless of how silly it seems to you.

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Oh, I do. I am not God, probably. I don't know everything. If it ever becomes most reasonable to believe in God I will. I can say right now I don't expect it to, but I'm open. I'm open to laissez faire economics if I can know it makes the most sense.

Alright, then I think we actually see eye to eye here. We have the same method of thinking... our minds are just in different places.

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First off, I AM an athiest. There is no God. It is theoretically possible for there to be a God, but I still believe that's not the case.

If you believe that it is theoretically possible for there to be a God, I think you would be an agnostic. Also I would change the sentence from, "There is no God" to "I do not believe there is a god." I believe an Atheist is someone who will die before they are willing to believe in a possibility that a God may exist. An Agnostic is someone who is uncertain of or does not believe in a God yet.

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Also, I began to question my faith some years ago, before I had even looked into Marxism seriously or read a word of objection to religion on a Marxist basis. I believe the only authentic commie writing I had read was Principles of Communism. As I began to lose my faith, Marxism gave me many of the answers I was looking for; why so many people believe, why religion permeates society so much. It even gave insight into why I believed what I did when I was younger. But if I had never heard the name of Marx, I think I'd still be atheist. I can't be sure. I certainly wouldn't be very "spiritual."

ok, that's cool. A lot of Marx's words are actually true and do explain a lot of things. He is right on in regards to why religion permeates society so much. But then again, you are talking to a biased person. I still hate organized religion with every fiber of my being. I still think it's the opiate of the masses and should be abolished. My developing of tolerance for religion is yet another part of my journey as a spiritual being having a human experience.

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You keep saying that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.” It isn't arrogant to believe something just to fit in. If anything it's the opposite of arrogance; complacency.

I know that's not the definition of arrogance. I was trying to... I don't know... I lost my train of thought. I was hypothetically using an action that an arrogant atheist might use to justify or rationalize his arrogance. Also, complacency is not the opposite of arrogance. The two can coexist but don't necessarily have to. For example, I see you as a complacent person but not an arrogant one.

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You're beliefs seem silly to me too. It's a mutual lack of understanding. But, I agree, better to say you believe what you believe than to pretend to believe or believe you believe something that you do not actually believe.

I don't think the lack of understanding is mutual. I understand your beliefs intimately as I used to share them. Mine changed as a result of a set of circumstances that were beyond my control. And I completely understand why you would find my beliefs silly. Once and a while, they seem ridiculous even to me (although those occasions are few and far between) I was a devout atheist for practically my whole life.

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I don't understand this. I understand the pragmatic "Well, it doesn't really matter if God is real as long the effects are the same." I object to that somewhat, but I got it. But what's the rest of it?

You'll have to elaborate. I don't understand what it is that you don't understand. lol.

So you are smarter then me because you think with your heart not your mind?

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Not whatever... I'm talking about spiritual, not religious... If you can't see the difference then there is no point in our discussing this.

Well, I see the point you're trying to make, but the disction is sometimes irrelevant in my eyes, that time being one of them.

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No... I'm saying that if you openly deny what you feel from the heart, you're arrogant... spiritual or not.

Now, I disagree with that. Your "heart" can lead you into some deep crap. Now, being too cold and calculating can do the same, but there's definitly times to deny your heart.

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I'm, sorry but I'm just not following you here.

A loose synonym for arrogance is pride. It does not make you prideful to deny that. Pride is not relevant.

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In the most simple way I am capable of explaining it, I find those who rule out the possibility of some greater force, simply because they haven't had any proof of one themselves.

Maybe this will help explain how I feel.

"I have not seen any proof of any existence of a God whatsoever.... maybe one exists but I don't believe in it." NOT ARROGANT

"I have not seen any proof of any existence of a God whatsoever.... there is no such thing as a god and anyone who believes in a god is a stupid fool and should be drown in feces... end of story." ARROGANT

Does that make sense?

Yes, it makes sense. But what if I'm neither?

I don't think people are stupid for believing in God or that no one should believe in it, although I consider that religion shouldn't exist from time to time. I have respect for some religious people. It's just that the ones I respect are definitly a minority.

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ok, ok.... excuuuuuuusse me..... logical and matericalistically based socialist doctrine then.

cool?

Somehow I don't feel like you're really seeing the difference...

If I was believing something that was dogmatic I'd be on the same level as religion. Although supporters can act dogmatically the beliefs themselves are not really dogmatic.

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YES!

How interesting.

I choose you, Pikachu.

Laibach, I choose you.

I choose Karl Marx's rotting corpse.

Seems a bit silly to me. Just a roundabout way of choosing what you want to believe despite or following any rationality.

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that's EXACTLY what I believe.

Well, that's tolerant of you I guess. It does clash with the idea of universal truth, that there is one reality that will respond the same way in the same circumstances. Unless you hold that polytheism is true and that there are multiple gods or spiritual being or whatever.

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because I personally believe that the only way to fill that gap completely is with spirituality. Some people can get by just fine with filling that gap with non spiritual things however. Maybe people don't have a spiritual gap and I'm just full of shit. These are all possibilities. I'm only sharing my personal theory/philosophy with you, regardless of how silly it seems to you.

Well, how do you know spirituality works better? How do you socialists or football adicts haven't filled it as well?

I think what you're refering to is simply a desire to be part of something greater than one's self. Which by the way, IS NOT universal, although it's fairly common to set on at some point.

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If you believe that it is theoretically possible for there to be a God, I think you would be an agnostic. Also I would change the sentence from, "There is no God" to "I do not believe there is a god." I believe an Atheist is someone who will die before they are willing to believe in a possibility that a God may exist. An Agnostic is someone who is uncertain of or does not believe in a God yet.

Laibach, you misuse words very frequently. Please learn what things you say a lot mean.

Wiki wrote:

Arrogant is an adjective that may refer to having excessive pride in oneself. A person who is arrogant often exaggerate one's own worth or importance in an overbearing manner.

Also, some different currents of Atheism.

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"An atheist is someone who believes and/or knows there is no god."
"An atheist lacks belief in a god."
"An atheist exercises no faith in the concept of god at all."

I lack belief, and have a few reasons to believe assertively that there's no god.

I view agnosticism as much less reasonable than theism or atheism. It is a claim that we cannot know whether or not there is a God. Now, I can handle this on an individual level, although it seems like a lack of confidence there, but I find it very annoying that someone would claim to know that I am unable to determine whether or not there is a god or gods.

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the word is derived from the Greek word "a" meaning "without" and "gnosis" meaning "knowledge". Thus the definition of agnosticism is "without knowledge" or the belief that there is not, and cannot ever be, sufficient knowledge or data to determine whether or not God does or does not exist.

*note, should read "there is not, or cannot ever be... does not exist, on a personal level or on a wider level."

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ok, that's cool. A lot of Marx's words are actually true and do explain a lot of things. He is right on in regards to why religion permeates society so much. But then again, you are talking to a biased person. I still hate organized religion with every fiber of my being. I still think it's the opiate of the masses and should be abolished. My developing of tolerance for religion is yet another part of my journey as a spiritual being having a human experience.

You say this but suggest I am complacent later on? Can you explain this?

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I know that's not the definition of arrogance. I was trying to... I don't know... I lost my train of thought. I was hypothetically using an action that an arrogant atheist might use to justify or rationalize his arrogance. Also, complacency is not the opposite of arrogance. The two can coexist but don't necessarily have to. For example, I see you as a complacent person but not an arrogant one.

I understand the misuse of the term on your part.

It is not directly the opposite though, but it takes the opposite of arrogance to be complacent; a truely prideful person will not be complacent.

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I don't think the lack of understanding is mutual. I understand your beliefs intimately as I used to share them. Mine changed as a result of a set of circumstances that were beyond my control. And I completely understand why you would find my beliefs silly. Once and a while, they seem ridiculous even to me (although those occasions are few and far between) I was a devout atheist for practically my whole life.

I was once religious. I suppose I have never been as spiritual as Laibach without religion, but I have been spiritual. We have both been in a similar situation to the other, but I'm not going to try to paint you out to have the same reasons I did necesarily. People do the same things for different reasons. I say this because I feel you are not quite grasping what I say in the way I mean it, and I am not doing it for you either.

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You'll have to elaborate. I don't understand what it is that you don't understand. lol.

When we finish I'm going to go back and read all this again... It'll be interesting. I'm enjoying this more than the homosexuality thing, heh.

Explain the whole "thing you swear by" comment.

Yes or No, for me is the same. Does it matter? Life goes on with or without the Lord.

exactly. lol

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Now, I disagree with that. Your "heart" can lead you into some deep crap. Now, being too cold and calculating can do the same, but there's definitly times to deny your heart.

True. I'm referring to on more of a broader scale. It's hard to explain but generally when something is right, you know it.

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Yes, it makes sense. But what if I'm neither?

I don't see how you can be. You have explained that you do not believe in God. Were there evidence to proved you otherwise, you might be willing to believe in a God. Therefore you are not arrogant. Every part of you tells you that there is no God. You are being true to yourself. Therefore, in my personal opinion, that would NOT make you arrogant.

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I don't think people are stupid for believing in God or that no one should believe in it, although I consider that religion shouldn't exist from time to time. I have respect for some religious people. It's just that the ones I respect are definitly a minority.

Well it's the same here. I don't think people are stupid for believing or not believing in God. I don't fancy religion much either (primarily because a lot of nuts distort the philosophy of religion) but whatever...

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Somehow I don't feel like you're really seeing the difference...

I do... I just like to mess with you, seeing as how somehow I don't feel like you're really seeing the difference between spirituality and religion.

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Seems a bit silly to me. Just a roundabout way of choosing what you want to believe despite or following any rationality.

It seems silly to a lot of people. It seems perfectly normal and rational to me. Personally, I find anything else silly. What is irrational about choosing your own God? Is it more rational to blindly follow and surrender your will and life over to the care of a God that someone else tells you to? Should I follow and adhere to a religion that stresses the existence of an all knowing, all powerful, punishing God with a bushy beard... or am I more likely to have a relationship with a kind, loving, compassionate, caring God of my understanding... like the spirit of nature, or ancestor spirits, or asche or the universal consciousness?

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Well, that's tolerant of you I guess. It does clash with the idea of universal truth, that there is one reality that will respond the same way in the same circumstances. Unless you hold that polytheism is true and that there are multiple gods or spiritual being or whatever.

Exactly... I do NOT believe in universal truth. I believe in subjective truth and that everyone's reality is different. Objective reality is only set of things and experiences that we have all agreed upon as being real. We both look at a chair and see a chair. We both put a lemon slice in each of our mouths and contort our faces. Perhaps what tastes sour to me actually tastes sweet to you and the face that your making is just the way you express your reaction to sweet tasting things. I try to analyze things in my world today, from an objective point of view but I think that everyone's reality is uniquely different.

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Well, how do you know spirituality works better? How do you socialists or football adicts haven't filled it as well?

I don't know that to be true for anybody else. I know that to be true for myself from experience.

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I think what you're refering to is simply a desire to be part of something greater than one's self. Which by the way, IS NOT universal, although it's fairly common to set on at some point.

Since when was I arguing that my beliefs were universal? My life, actions, and behaviors are grounded in a power greater that myself because I maintain a spiritual, physical conciouss contact with a God of my understanding. I never made any assumption that it was universal.

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I view agnosticism as much less reasonable than theism or atheism. It is a claim that we cannot know whether or not there is a God. Now, I can handle this on an individual level, although it seems like a lack of confidence there, but I find it very annoying that someone would claim to know that I am unable to determine whether or not there is a god or gods.

Well why? There really is no way, any of us can determine whether or not there is a God? I merely speculate that a God does exist while you merely speculate that one does not. Sorry to annoy you, but you ARE UNABLE to determine whether or not there is a God, considering that you believe in objectivity and dialectical materialist universal truth, and all that jazz. If according, to you, reality was subjective and uniquely different for every individual, then you COULD determine that there is no God.

I think I just had a moment of clarity actually, since you brought up agnosticism. Thank you, Cata.

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the word is derived from the Greek word

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Yeah, but I'm not Greek.

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"a" meaning "without" and "gnosis" meaning "knowledge". Thus the definition of agnosticism is "without knowledge" or the belief that there is not, and cannot ever be, sufficient knowledge or data to determine whether or not God does or does not exist.

That is true for whoever believes it.

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*note, should read "there is not, or cannot ever be... does not exist, on a personal level or on a wider level."

it never said on a personal level... and I think that a "wider" level was implied.

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You say this but suggest I am complacent later on? Can you explain this?

Explain why I suggest you are complacent. I don't know. Based on my impression of you from the way you speak to me, the only times you get all fiesty is when I deliberately slander socialism. You sound chill with where you're at.

Why am I bothering to explain this to you? Do you not feel complacent? That was intended to be a compliment by the way... thanks for throwing it back in my face.

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It is not directly the opposite though, but it takes the opposite of arrogance to be complacent; a truely prideful person will not be complacent.

Why not? I think they would be.

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I was once religious. I suppose I have never been as spiritual as Laibach without religion, but I have been spiritual.

Why did you just address me in the third person?

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Explain the whole "thing you swear by" comment.

Uhm... I swear by a lot of things typically.... God.... my mother's grave... the life of my unborn child...

What does that have to do with anything?

I think so, yes. I just don't see how the universe could exist of its own accord.

I don't know whether god exists or not nor is it important to me as I don't see the existence or non-existence of a god effecting me anytime soon.

I do however view the need of worshipping a being such as god as rather illogical but to each his own I guess.

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Don't be resentful of the fact that you aren't capable of magical thought... or any other kind of thought for that matter.

Fitzy i whould not be talking Mr.paranoid obssesive compulsive

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So you are smarter then me because you think with your heart not your mind?

No, I feel with my heart. But even if I did think with my heart, I would probably still be smarter than you.