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 11 Mar 2005, 11:06
But about General Vlasov...
He was an intresting person. He was responsible for the German defeat near Moscow in December 1941. Six months later he was serving in the ranks of his former enemy. First a hero, then a defector. 11 Mar 2005, 15:51
Beowulf wrote:
Quote: Hitler said in 1933: Quote: I thought the quote was that he would sign anything becuase he wouldn't listen to the treaty. He did this with most of Western Europe (Denmark, Holand, Belgium, Checkoslavokia, Russia, ect.). Hitlers word can not be trusted in treaties, but the people can trust his word (ie german living space, extermination of the Jews).  "Don't hate on me bro" - Loz 11 Mar 2005, 17:50
And how is that related to this?
Denmark, Netherlands ect: became enemies of Germany, however, Lithuania, Estonia and Latvia were never enemies of Germany during WWII. Those three countries were forced to join Soviet Union. Estonians, Latvians and Lithuanians hated communists and Stalin. Estonians ect: greeted Germans as liberators. All those three countries also provided valunteers to Wehrmacht. From Estonia, about 40000 joined Wehrmacht as valunteers. Last edited by Carius on 11 Mar 2005, 18:05, edited 2 times in total.
11 Mar 2005, 18:03
Beowulf wrote:
Quote: Most countries wanted out of the USSR. The people did not like communism. It was only after Stalin talked about defending the Motherland that countires realized they were on the wrong side and started partisan activities. Quote: Why would he do that? The majority probaly hated the USSR but their would still be a good portion who favored communism. If Hitler let those countries be free than all hell would brake lose in the Baltics. "Don't hate on me bro" - Loz 11 Mar 2005, 18:09
Quote: Quote: Is that so? No, they really, really hated communists and Stalin. Those people who supported communists in these countries were considered as minotiry. Defending the motherland? What on earth are you talking about? All those three countries were forced to join Soviet Union in 1940. Yes, forced. For the people of these countries Soviets were occupiers and agressors. When Germans arrived they were more then happy. Quote: Please, read what is written above. Hell would broke loose? First Soviets occupy these three countries, then Germans drive the occupiers away. These countries are granted independence after the war. A real hell for sure... 11 Mar 2005, 18:18
Beowulf wrote:
Quote: Yes they were but still it would be something that Hitler should not of ignored. Quote: The Russians in the Baltics (minority) would probaly do everything they could to stop the German war machine when Stalin asked the Russian people to defend the Motherland. What I meant to say was 'if' Hitler had let the Baltic States be free after the war Russian partisans would be bolder and their would be some sort of civil war. It would be chaos because regualr troops would have a hard time ridding a country of resistance. "Don't hate on me bro" - Loz 11 Mar 2005, 18:19
I can give you examples of how much the people of these three countries loved Soviets and wanted to defend Soviet motherland...
In 1940, Soviets began nationalisation and purges that saw up to 60000 Estonians killed or deported. In 1941 in Lithuania, the German armies were welcomed as liberators and many Lithuanians joined the German armed forces in their anti-Communist war. Lithuanians served in almost all arms of the German war effort, in the Waffen SS in particular, fighting with honor and distinction on the Eastern Front against their long time foes, the Communists in the Soviet Union. In 1941, Latvian resistance movement supported Germans by creating confusion amongst Soviet troops. Do you need more examples? 11 Mar 2005, 18:21
Quote: ....... How about actually reading what I post and do some research? Civil wars? Sure...  11 Mar 2005, 18:31
From 1945 to 1949, over 175000 Latvians were killed or deported to Siberia.
In 1944, Soviet Union had re-occupied Lithuania and as an revenge to Lithuanians, Soviets deported over 350000 Lithuanians. When it is considered that the total Lithuanian population of the time was just over three million, the Soviet arrests and deportations to Siberia represented fully ten per cent of the entire population. After world war, Soviets deported or killed another 60000 Estonians. So much for your theory, Red Rebel. 11 Mar 2005, 18:35
Civil war was an exaggeration, perhaps fighting is a better word. And yes I do see that most people in the Baltic states welcomed the Germans. They welcome them because they thought life would be better the under the Soviets.
But it turned into another occupation. The Germans demanded soliders if a town did not have enough 'volunteers.' The inhabitants also had to give Germans soliders food, supplies, I'm not sure if they had to give them a palce to sleep. Also some minorites that did not fit into Hitlers new world, disappeared in the holocaust. Was the price worth it for independence that Hitler might not even give? "Don't hate on me bro" - Loz 11 Mar 2005, 18:39
Quote: Those people who disappereared were Jews or Communists. People of these three countries that didnt belong to either of these groups were left alone. No, im not saying that holocaust was justified. The Germans were liberators for Estonians ( ect ), because they came to the country and destroyed the alien force here. Although Germany occupied Estonia itself, Estonians were pleased with it, because Germans did not use the kind of treatment towards Estonians ( ect ) like Russians did. They were not so rude. The relations between Estonians and Germans were better than between Estonians and Russians. You have listened too much stories that Stalin made. Stories that Germans were evil baby eater, killer, looters in Latvia, Estonia and Lithunia when Stalin deported fully ten per cent of the entire population of Lithunia. 11 Mar 2005, 18:41
Beowulf wrote:
Quote: That is propbaly true. But after the war, as you said the Baltic States helped the Germans. The Russians treated the Baltic States as enemies. I'm not saying the Russians were right but their was a war going on. "Don't hate on me bro" - Loz 11 Mar 2005, 18:43
Beowulf wrote:
Quote: I'm not disagreeing with you their. Quote: Both sides made their opponents look terrible. "Don't hate on me bro" - Loz 11 Mar 2005, 18:48
Quote: Made their opponents look terrible... This hints that you mean propaganda, and the fact that Stalin deported fully ten per cent of the entire population of Lithunia is not propaganda. That ten per cent of the entire population of Lithunia certainly didnt yust vanish in to air... This theory of yours flaws baddly. 11 Mar 2005, 18:53
Quote: The fact that people valunteered to join Wehrmacht doesnt mean that Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania were helping Germany in alliance, which they certainly didnt do. The deportations and killing of these people were not justified. Estonia, Latvia and Lithunia were peaceful countries before WWII, when they were forced to become part of Soviet Union. 12 Mar 2005, 01:35
Beowulf wrote: The Baltic nations were under military dictatorship during the interwar years. Estonia: Konstantin Päts, March 12, 1934 Latvia: Prime Minister Kārlis Ulmanis, March 13, 1934 Lithuania: Antanas Smetona, 1924 coup against Socialist government. 1929 assumes dictatorial power. The constant attack of Socialism in the Baltic nations is an attempt to destroy the positive attitude towards the USSR. This long article gives many statistics of what the Baltic nations feel of the present and past. http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:Xq ... rwar&hl=en  12 Mar 2005, 01:49
Quote: Finland wasnt under military dictatorship. Finland was a republic that had, had an elected President since 1918. Quote: Point? Does that justify Soviet agression toward Baltic states? No. 12 Mar 2005, 02:31
Those Bulkan countries were part of the Russian Empire and deserved to be part of the Soviet Union, same with most of Poland.
 12 Mar 2005, 11:22
........
Sure... Now I see your way of thinking. Something that was once part of Russia has to be part of Soviet Union, is that so? And you think the people of these countries thought same way and hailed Soviets as liberators? No. The fact that they were once part of Imperial Russia doesnt justify Soviet agression toward those countries. 14 Mar 2005, 05:42
Quote: Of course it is opinion, but it is taken out of offical Nazi documents regarding what was to be done in Europe once the conquest was complete. You seem to take the fact that the Baltics aren't composed of Slavs to mean that they will not be incorporeted into the Reich. What then of the Czechs? The Austrians? Western Poland? They were incorporated into the Reich, and you have given me no reason to believe that the Baltics would be too, considering I have a source, and your source is just that the nazis were viewed as liberators. Quote: Deportation of collaborators not justified? The Soviet Union, apart from Poland, suffered the most heavily in the war. You expect, after all the carnage that happened on the Eastern Front that they just say "ok, here's your state pension and medals for killing or helping, advertently, to kill Red Army soldiers, or to point out communists and Jews for execution"? Quote: It certainly is unfortunate that these countries happened to be where they were. But consider, what if they had formed an alliance with Hitler in his invasion of Russia? To the Russians they were just a chess piece, and justification for their occupation was further entrenched in the fact that they were part of the old Russian Empire, as well as the fact that they are situated so close to Leningrad, Russia's second industrial city. See what they're doing now? Do you not think they're giving Russian defence ministers a hard time now that Nato is right on their doorstep? Unlike Nato, Hitler's Germany was not only aggressive, but had plans to destroy the USSR and take their land ever since Hitler wrote Mein Kampf. Do you not think that Hitler could have convinced these nations to join him? Although I would agree that the occupation of these countries is unjustified, I must say that from a strategic political military point of view, it was seen as a necessity, and any great power would have done it. Oh, and by the way, what do you know about German claims on the Lithuanian city of Memel? I think it might be relevant to our discussion. Maksym: Thank you for the article. Beowulf seems to be painting an overly rosy picture of conditions within these countries. Thus your article is very relevent in pointing out otherwise. "The thing about capitalism is that it sounds awful on paper and is horrendous in practice. Communism sounds wonderful on paper and when it was put into practice it was done pretty well for what they had to work with." -MiG
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