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Fifth International

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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 09 May 2008, 14:59
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Post 12 Mar 2010, 20:06
I've recently become aware of a movement among communist parties to establish a Fifth International. It seems to mostly have support in Latin America but has some supportive sections elsewhere in the world as well. The appear to be parties with a Trotskyist sympathy who believe that the Fouth International has degenerated to a point where the establishment of a new International is necessary.

What do you all think of this? I, myself, am wary of any movement that may split the communist movement further but I am admittedly unknowledgable of the recent politics of the 4th International.

It also seems to have a good base of support but the vast majority of parties seem to be against it.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 11 Nov 2009, 07:13
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Post 12 Mar 2010, 23:23
I think what you are thinking of is the Movement for a Fifth International, which is a trotskyist organisation that pushes for the establishment of the fifth international.

Chavez of venezuela ordered a fifth international in which the leaders of various labor parties will meet in Caracas in April. The fifth international says that it will not fight over ideology. They will discuss it at the meeting. It has no affiliation towards Trotsky or Stalin
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Sep 2006, 22:05
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Post 13 Mar 2010, 00:08
The Marxist (trot) 5th international is led wholly by revisionists and ultraleftists, and Chavez's isn't even Marxist in name. Case closed.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 27 Oct 2006, 23:10
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Post 13 Mar 2010, 04:18
Did he not call himself a trotskyist?
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Post 13 Mar 2010, 05:55
I'm pretty sure he didn't. He said something about Trotsky being a great revolutionary or something.
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Post 15 Mar 2010, 17:37
Dagoth Ur wrote:
The Marxist (trot) 5th international is led wholly by revisionists and ultraleftists, and Chavez's isn't even Marxist in name. Case closed.


Nice and succinct but could you be more specific? I'm a little wary of the terms revisionist and ultraleftist just because they are used as empty epithets in the communist movement lately.

Fitzy wrote:
Did he not call himself a trotskyist?


He did. It was when he was describing his ideology of Bolivarianism; he said: "I am also a Trotskyist". However, it is the general opinion that this was misinformed on his part.
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Red_Son: Bob Avakian is the Glenn Beck of communism.
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Post 16 Mar 2010, 21:42
Indigo wrote:
Nice and succinct but could you be more specific? I'm a little wary of the terms revisionist and ultraleftist just because they are used as empty epithets in the communist movement lately.


It doesn't matter if they are overused. I'm using them correctly. The fifth international is led by extremely sectarian partially pabloite (read: revisionist) trots. They reject the ICFI only because they don't control it. It's pretty standard policy for revisionist trots, don't like the party start a new one and claim all the other ones are wrong.

And besides you don't just randomly start a new international. The second was called when the first died, the third was called when the social democrats betrayed socialism and the fouth when Stalin disbanded the third. The fourth is still going and still revolutionary. Hence no need for a fifth.

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He did. It was when he was describing his ideology of Bolivarianism; he said: "I am also a Trotskyist". However, it is the general opinion that this was misinformed on his part.


He's claimed he was Marxist too but there's little evidence of that either.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 09 May 2008, 14:59
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Post 17 Mar 2010, 14:31
Cool. That works just fine. Although, I thought pabloite was a word for Trotskyists that pursued the policy of "entryism sui generis".

Dagoth Ur wrote:

He's claimed he was Marxist too but there's little evidence of that either.


He's a populist more or less. He'll call himself whatever gets him popular regardless of whether or not it makes sense.
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Red_Son: Bob Avakian is the Glenn Beck of communism.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 12 Jun 2006, 02:14
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Post 17 Mar 2010, 18:51
Yeah, people talk a lot about Chavez without knowing what's really going on in Venezuela...


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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Sep 2006, 22:05
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Post 17 Mar 2010, 22:11
Indigo wrote:
Cool. That works just fine. Although, I thought pabloite was a word for Trotskyists that pursued the policy of "entryism sui generis".


That's a classic tactic but it's an umbrella for all kinds revisonism. Third campism largely flows from pabloism.

Quote:
He's a populist more or less. He'll call himself whatever gets him popular regardless of whether or not it makes sense.


Agreed. I've never understood why people prefer Chavez to Morales. I mean Morales actually seems like a maxist as opposed to Chavez's obvious populism.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 12 Jun 2006, 02:14
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Post 17 Mar 2010, 22:59
Yeah, because city councils, workers directed factories, land reform, peasant militias...that's all populism...


"Where Argentina goes, Latin America will go".
Leonid Brezhnev

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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 14 Jul 2008, 20:01
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Post 18 Mar 2010, 05:28
And because populism is a Bad Thing to begin with...
"Don't know why i'm still surprised with this shit anyway." - Loz
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 09 May 2008, 14:59
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Post 18 Mar 2010, 18:06
Never said populism was a bad thing. I'm just stating that he's not a marxist.

Dagoth Ur wrote:
Agreed. I've never understood why people prefer Chavez to Morales. I mean Morales actually seems like a maxist as opposed to Chavez's obvious populism.


I actually do like Chavez more than Morales. The reason for this is because Chavez seems to be doing more for the workers than Morales regardless of ideology. Also, Morales' ideology is similar to Chavez's so I wouldn't say either is more marxist than the other.

Che Burashka wrote:
Yeah, because city councils, workers directed factories, land reform, peasant militias...that's all populism...

When I say Chavez is a populist, I'm talking about his political philosophy and not his ideology. His socialist policies are aimed at what is desirable to the citizens of Venezuela and his speeches attempt to portray himself in a way that is favorable to the people.
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Red_Son: Bob Avakian is the Glenn Beck of communism.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 12 Jun 2006, 02:14
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Post 18 Mar 2010, 20:05
Quote:
his speeches attempt to portray himself in a way that is favorable to the people.

As does anyone giving a speech. Specially politicians.


"Where Argentina goes, Latin America will go".
Leonid Brezhnev

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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 11 Nov 2009, 07:13
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Post 18 Mar 2010, 23:20
Indigo wrote:
His socialist policies are aimed at what is desirable to the citizens of Venezuela

Shouldn't politicians act as a representation of the people?
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 09 May 2008, 14:59
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Post 19 Mar 2010, 01:54
proletarian wrote:
Shouldn't politicians act as a representation of the people?
j

Indeed. This is why I don't see Chavez's populism as a bad thing. Unprincipled, maybe, but not a bad thing.

Che Burashka wrote:
As does anyone giving a speech. Specially politicians.


Not necessarily. Politicians are typically ideologues. Political speeches are mostly aimed at persuading people to follow their line of thinking. I'm generalizing, of course.
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Red_Son: Bob Avakian is the Glenn Beck of communism.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 13 Feb 2008, 15:25
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Post 19 Mar 2010, 12:15
Quote:
Yeah, because city councils, workers directed factories, land reform, peasant militias...that's all populism...


This cannot be overstated. Since Chavez's party was voted in, Venezuela has made impressive leaps forward. It's become a beacon of light for Socialists throughout South America. The Western media loves to make Chavez look like a hot headed idiot, but has to take him wildly out of context to do so.

I recommend anybody who is skeptical of Chavez to watch "The War on Democracy" by John Pilger, a fellow Australian. Even though it was filmed about 6 years ago, it shows very well the improvements ordinary people have seen and the character of Hugo.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 09 May 2008, 14:59
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Post 22 Mar 2010, 14:47
Watched it on google this weekend. It was an excellent view on the plight of Latin American democracy in general caused by U.S. imperialism.

I also liked the view of Chavez's usage of his country's oil supply. I agreed with Pliger that Chavez is one of the few leaders of an oil producing nation that acutally uses the money for the good of the people.
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Red_Son: Bob Avakian is the Glenn Beck of communism.
"Le prolétariat; c'est moi." - King Indigo XIV
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Sep 2006, 22:05
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Post 22 Mar 2010, 21:56
War on democracy in no way shows chavez's socialism. All it shows is the liberals are traitors and US imperialism has no concern for genuine democracy.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 09 May 2008, 14:59
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Post 22 Mar 2010, 22:19
No, but still a good film. Focus on the positives. Sure, it didn't prove his point at all but I got to see a nice documentary.
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Red_Son: Bob Avakian is the Glenn Beck of communism.
"Le prolétariat; c'est moi." - King Indigo XIV
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