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Is Yugoslavia a socialist country?

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Loz
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 06 Dec 2009, 23:17
Philosophized
Post 28 May 2011, 19:10
I made this thread in order to present this very interesting critique of Yugoslavia written by the Communist Party of China in 1963:

http://www.marx2mao.com/Other/IYS63.html

It talks about different "deviations" developing in post-1948 SFRY,the gradual development of capitalism,the growing disparity between rich and poor republics and other negative phenomena.

Any comments?
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 12 May 2010, 07:43
Ideology: Other Leftist
Politburo
Post 01 Jun 2011, 03:15
Honestly, reading that I couldn't help but feel that it was more about the beef between Khruschev and the CCP, and Yugoslavia was just like an argument to frame that around. I mean, I don't know, it seems like Yugoslavia was just in a poor position because it had not aligned itself with Stalin's USSR, and China followed Stalin's Marxist-Leninist line. SFRY therefore was in a bad position and had to find some ways of sustaining itself, which could explain why it ended up having friendlier relations with the US, and why it didn't go with a model that deviated from the USSR and the PRC.

Considering that Lenin had Soviet economic policies shift toward NEP in order to build and sustain the USSR when world revolution didn't happen, and that period also involved dealing with the West, I don't think it's entirely fair to call out Yugoslavia for what Tito's government did. This is particularly true when you consider Mao's economic policies didn't exactly develop China once the Sino-Soviet Split happened, as the PRC had needed to rely on Soviet technical expertise while carrying out its first Five-Year Plan, and then once the split occurred and the Soviets withdrew its aid, Mao tried to go his own path, leading to some pretty big goddamn mistakes, whereas Tito's policies helped out the SRFY. Of course, there's more factors at play here to account for economic disparity (both internal and between each other) and development (or the lack thereof) in the various socialist countries, but at the same time, that saying about not throwing stones while living in a house of glass comes to mind here.
Last edited by Komissar_KW on 01 Jun 2011, 03:30, edited 1 time in total.
“Conservatism is the blind and fear-filled worship of dead radicals” - Mark Twain
Loz
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Soviet cogitations: 11879
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 06 Dec 2009, 23:17
Philosophized
Post 01 Jun 2011, 03:29
Quote:
Honestly, reading that I couldn't help but feel that it was more about the beef between Khruschev and the CCP, and Yugoslavia was just like an argument to frame that around.

Certainly,one might argue that this article is a bit biased against Yugoslavia,but it still brings out important points in its criticism against the Titoists.

Quote:
SFRY therefore was in a bad position and had to find some ways of sustaining itself, which could explain why it ended up having friendlier relations with the US, and why it didn't go with a model that deviated from the USSR and the PRC.

True,but it's also important to note that Yugoslav relationships with the West grew stronger even after the Tito-Khruschev "reconciliation" in the mid-50s.
Another interesting thing is that the Yugoslav-founded Non Aligned Movement often sought to alienate the Third World countries from USSR and Marxism-Leninism in general.
Probably the most evident example of that is the Havana NAM Summit(1979),where Tito actually prevented Castro from drawing the whole Movement closer to USSR.

Quote:
Considering that Lenin had Soviet economic policies shift toward NEP in order to build and sustain the USSR when world revolution didn't happen, and that period also involved dealing with the West, I don't think it's entirely fair to call out Yugoslavia for what Tito's government did.

But the NEP was a temporary concession made in completely different circumstances.USSR at that time was alone.
The peculiar characteristic of Yugoslavia was a radical shift from the short-lasting "Soviet model"(that actually brought Yugoslavia back on its feet after the (Second World) War,which was basically the main purpose of NEP) to a significantly different system with more elements of capitalism.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 12 May 2010, 07:43
Ideology: Other Leftist
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Post 01 Jun 2011, 03:51
Well, I'm just wondering, since you're from the ex-SRFY, what exactly do people there think? I mean, my understanding was that under Tito Yugoslavia was doing pretty well, and that it had not followed in a strictly socialist line, but it had a socialist economy with market elements, which helped the country develop as a non-aligned state. After Tito's death, his successors began to screw things up. I also get the impression that the SRFY in the 1960's was doing better than the PRC, and sometimes in my more cynical moods, I wonder if the CCP didn't criticize the SRFY using ideology only as a mask while in reality it was more afraid that its successes would lead to the Chinese people demanding a different model that would threaten the CCP's hold on power.

I mean, when I'm talking to relatives in China, they sometimes remark sardonically that Mao basically criticized any socialist country that happened to be better off than the PRC (namely the SRFY and the USSR), and I also see a lot of splits among the Left in the modern day that have roots back to the splits between the USSR and other non-Warsaw Pact socialist countries, so I kind of have a negative impression of these revisionist vs anti-revisionist battles. I personally think it's more important to develop within a fair model than not develop and carry out constant "struggles" all the time and making everyone miserable. The latter has a much higher chance of leading to reaction. Or maybe I'm just too cynical.
“Conservatism is the blind and fear-filled worship of dead radicals” - Mark Twain
Loz
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User avatar
Soviet cogitations: 11879
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 06 Dec 2009, 23:17
Philosophized
Post 01 Jun 2011, 04:05
Quote:
Well, I'm just wondering, since you're from the ex-SRFY, what exactly do people there think?

Well it's not that easy to answer because attitudes vary from country to country.In general,most people miss the social security etc of the old days but national-chauvinism and hatred bred in the 90s has taken its toll,and a lot of people(at least in my country) are against the idea of Yugoslavia.

Quote:
I mean, my understanding was that under Tito Yugoslavia was doing pretty well, and that it had not followed in a strictly socialist line, but it had a socialist economy with market elements, which helped the country develop as a non-aligned state.

It was doing pretty well,but it gradually became more and more capitalist,and some republics(Slovenia and Croatia especially) were getting richer while the other ones lagged further and further behind.
And then the horrible economic crisis that lasted from 1979 until the end of Yugoslavia in 1991 certainly contributed a lot to the country's downfall and the rise of nationalism-chauvinism.

Quote:
After Tito's death, his successors began to screw things up.

Well,to be honest,the Crisis of the 80s started brewing in the last years of Tito's rule.

Quote:
I also get the impression that the SRFY in the 1960's was doing better than the PRC, and sometimes in my more cynical moods, I wonder if the CCP didn't criticize the SRFY using ideology only as a mask while in reality it was more afraid that its successes would lead to the Chinese people demanding a different model that would threaten the CCP's hold on power.

Might be,but the 60s USSR was also doing a lot better than Mao's China,and i believe that the Chinese people(and the CPC itself) looked up to the USSR more than they did(or could) look up to Yugoslavia.
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