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The breakup of Yugoslavia & subsequent Civil War.

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Soviet cogitations: 10005
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 14 Jul 2008, 20:01
Ideology: Trotskyism
Philosophized
Post 31 Jul 2010, 15:16
I want an explanation of this. Just tell me what happened. Please don't come up with links to articles because, as my experience tells me, there are no neutral articles on this subject, at all. Everybody says entirely different stuff, and I'm simply not educated enough to separate facts from propaganda.

Why did Yugoslavia break up in the first place?
What were the reasons for the years of Civil War that followed?
Was there genocide? If yes, whose fault was it?
What crimes is Milosevic guilty of?
Why did German imperialism consider it necessary to send troops to the region?
How long did Yugoslav socialism last, and how did the bourgeoisie regain control of the region?

Also it would be nice if this didn't devolve into the usual bitching between Loz and Moris. Of course responses from you guys would be awesome, but just try to explain stuff to me instead of bitching at each other, will you? Thanks in advance.
"Don't know why i'm still surprised with this shit anyway." - Loz
Loz
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Soviet cogitations: 11879
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 06 Dec 2009, 23:17
Philosophized
Post 31 Jul 2010, 15:54
Quote:
Why did Yugoslavia break up in the first place?

Since the 60's republics gradually got more rights,greater autonomy in economical matters and etc...The movement for independence was a logical outcome of such socio-economical development.
By late 80's Slovenia,Croatia,BiH and Macedonia wanted to become independent(the latest constitution had recognized the rights of secession)

Quote:
What were the reasons for the years of Civil War that followed?

It wasn't a civil war.SFRY officially died in 1992,while the wars continued until 1995(and 1999 in Kosovo case)

Quote:
Was there genocide? If yes, whose fault was it?

Yes,sure genocide(s) happened.It was primarily Serbian fault.Serbs committed the worst atrocities against Muslims in Bosnia,though.
Croats and Bosnians have committed war-crimes too during the course of the war(although on a smaller scale)

Quote:
What crimes is Milosevic guilty of?

Genocide,irredentism,imperialist aggression(s) and Yeltsin like-criminalization of the state.There's a nice song as a literal example:"Slobo send us some salad,there'll be meat,'cause we'll slaughter Croats(sang by chetniks in Vukovar)

Quote:
Why did German imperialism consider it necessary to send troops to the region?

Were there any German troops outside UN forces in the ex-YU?


Quote:
How long did Yugoslav socialism last, and how did the bourgeoisie regain control of the region?

I'd say it lasted until late 80's...

Quote:
Also it would be nice if this didn't devolve into the usual bitching between Loz and Moris.

We are not "bitching" just for the sake of it,or because of personal animosities,but because we often have fundamentally different views on the subject.
Soviet cogitations: 10005
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 14 Jul 2008, 20:01
Ideology: Trotskyism
Philosophized
Post 31 Jul 2010, 16:08
Quote:
Since the 60's republics gradually got more rights,greater autonomy in economical matters and etc...The movement for independence was a logical outcome of such socio-economical development.
By late 80's Slovenia,Croatia,BiH and Macedonia wanted to become independent(the latest constitution had recognized the rights of secession)


Were there other Federal Republics of Yugoslavia except these four? Did something remain of Yugoslavia after these republics had declared independence?

Quote:
It wasn't a civil war.SFRY officially died in 1992,while the wars continued until 1995(and 1999 in Kosovo case)


What were the wars about then? I've always had the impression that it was just senseless killing because of racism, is that true?

Quote:
Serbs committed the worst atrocities against Muslims in Bosnia,though.


What were Serbs doing in Bosnia? How could they just go into foreign territories to massacre Muslims there, and more importantly, why did they do it?

Quote:
irredentism


Explain?

Quote:
imperialist aggression


Against whom?

Quote:
and Yeltsin like-criminalization of the state.


As in "distributing state property among his friends"?

Quote:
Were there any German troops outside UN forces in the ex-YU?


NATO forces, including German ones, were sent to Kosovo in 1999, without UN mandate. It was the first time that Germany waged a war of aggression since 1945. According to our foreign minister at the time, Fischer, this was done because Germany supposedly had a historical task to stop this "second Auschwitz". This is widely regarded by the German Left as the resurrection of German military imperialism.

Quote:
I'd say it lasted until late 80's...


What happened then? Yugoslav socialist enterprises were controlled by the workers. How did the bourgeoisie gain control of them? Were did the new Yugoslav bourgeoisie come from, in the first place?
"Don't know why i'm still surprised with this shit anyway." - Loz
Loz
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Soviet cogitations: 11879
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 06 Dec 2009, 23:17
Philosophized
Post 31 Jul 2010, 16:23
Quote:
Were there other Federal Republics of Yugoslavia except these four? Did something remain of Yugoslavia after these republics had declared independence?

There were 6 republics(Croatia,Slovenia,Serbia,BiH,Montenegro,Macedonia)+2 autonomous regions:Vojvodina and Kosovo(with almost republic-like authorities)
Serbia and Montenegro decided to keep the name Yugoslavia(to exploit the remnants of international reputation-legitimacy of old SRFY).It was called Savezna Republika Jugoslavija(Federal republic of Yugoslavia).Clearly without the "socialist" part,and they omitted the red star from their flag,coat of arms etc...

Quote:
What were the wars about then? I've always had the impression that it was just senseless killing because of racism, is that true?

No.There's no "senseless killing".There are always economical and other factors behind it.Serbs wanted to make "greater Serbia" and "unite" all areas where Serbs lived.Bourgeoisie in power tends to do that.Croatia tried something similar with Croats in BiH afterward.

Quote:
What were Serbs doing in Bosnia? How could they just go into foreign territories to massacre Muslims there, and more importantly, why did they do it?

There were(and are) around 2 million Serbs in Bosnia.You should be pretty familiar with the concept of "Lebensraum" for example.
It's not something new and unheard of,and Serbian aggression in Bosnia is not unique in history.

Quote:
Explain?

Nothing new really.There's a Serb-nationalist saying:"Serbia's borders are marked by the gravestones of Serbs".
Serbian bourgeoisie wanted to make a "greater Serbia"...it's just what Italians or Germans attempted throughout the 19th and 20th century.

Quote:
Against whom?

First against Socialist republics of Croatia and BiH,then against Republics of Croatia and BiH.

Quote:
As in "distributing state property among his friends"?

Indeed.Similar thing happened in Croatia.
Slobo distributed much of state property among mafia members and/or war criminals,though.


Quote:
NATO forces, including German ones, were sent to Kosovo in 1999, without UN mandate. It was the first time that Germany waged a war of aggression since 1945. According to our foreign minister at the time, Fischer, this was done because Germany supposedly had a historical task to stop this "second Auschwitz". This is widely regarded by the German Left as the resurrection of German military imperialism.

Fact remains that NATO intervention stopped the genocide of Albanians in Kosovo.

Quote:
What happened then? Yugoslav socialist enterprises were controlled by the workers. How did the bourgeoisie gain control of them? Were did the new Yugoslav bourgeoisie come from, in the first place?

"Democrats" changed the laws pretty quickly,taking the state property from the people.Remember the privatization in DDR? Pigs from BRD didn't give a shit about what DDR workers wanted.
Also,factories never were really and exclusively in worker's hands.
The new bourgeoisie came mostly from the ranks of the old Communist party of Yugoslavia.
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Soviet cogitations: 1537
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 14 Jan 2010, 05:46
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Party Member
Post 09 Aug 2010, 21:29
Quote:
Yes,sure genocide(s) happened.It was primarily Serbian fault.Serbs committed the worst atrocities against Muslims in Bosnia,


Did ethnic Serbs that all ready lived in Bosnia commit genocide or did Serbia invade Bosnia and committed genocide ?
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"Those who do not move, do not notice their chains." - Rosa Luxemburg
Long Live The Bolivarian Revolution!
RIP Muamar Qadafi
RIP Hugo Chavez
Loz
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Soviet cogitations: 11879
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 06 Dec 2009, 23:17
Philosophized
Post 09 Aug 2010, 21:43
Quote:
Did ethnic Serbs that all ready lived in Bosnia commit genocide or did Serbia invade Bosnia and committed genocide ?

Mostly Bosnian Serbs.
They established a new state,that was supported by Serbia until 1995.
There were chetniks and militias from Serbia though,but the bulk of "Army of Republic Srpska" consisted of native Bosnian Serbs.
Army of RS was created from Bosnian Serb elements of YPA.
YPA was disbanded in 1992 and it's weapons and equipment were left to the Bosnian Serbs-the army of newly founded "Republic of Srpska"
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User avatar
Soviet cogitations: 3553
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 17 Jul 2006, 00:10
Ideology: Other Leftist
Forum Commissar
Post 09 Aug 2010, 21:44
comrades! soon you will be able to read more about the truth behind the collapse of YU in free exclusive e-book for former JLA general and a high-ranking intelligence service member, Marijan Kranjc! translation of this massive collection of sources, informations and statistics is slowly getting under way and will be translated by a top slovene-canadian translation/proofreading team! it aint gonna be an easy task but it will be done exclusively for SE and the rest of internetz!
Image


Jugoslavija je bleda slika
premrzlega partizana
zato je njeno ljudstvo navajeno trpeti
zato je njeno ljudstvo pripravljeno umreti.

-Via Ofenziva

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Loz
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Soviet cogitations: 11879
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 06 Dec 2009, 23:17
Philosophized
Post 09 Aug 2010, 21:46
Congratulations,and thanks for the endeavor Moris!
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User avatar
Soviet cogitations: 3553
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 17 Jul 2006, 00:10
Ideology: Other Leftist
Forum Commissar
Post 09 Aug 2010, 22:18
aw thanks ;;

the book will be published in several chapters, meaning that you will be able to follow the progress of it and will be kept on track with it! i'll even make a thread and short previews of them when the time comes and believe me it will! remember, only through studying can we fight global janshism!
Image


Jugoslavija je bleda slika
premrzlega partizana
zato je njeno ljudstvo navajeno trpeti
zato je njeno ljudstvo pripravljeno umreti.

-Via Ofenziva

Forum Rules
User avatar
Soviet cogitations: 1537
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 14 Jan 2010, 05:46
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Party Member
Post 10 Aug 2010, 01:34
Why was milosevic charged with genocide
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"Those who do not move, do not notice their chains." - Rosa Luxemburg
Long Live The Bolivarian Revolution!
RIP Muamar Qadafi
RIP Hugo Chavez
User avatar
Soviet cogitations: 3711
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 07 Jul 2006, 04:49
Ideology: Juche
Old Bolshevik
Post 10 Aug 2010, 02:11
Quote:
comrades! soon you will be able to read more about the truth behind the collapse of YU in free exclusive e-book for former JLA general and a high-ranking intelligence service member, Marijan Kranjc! translation of this massive collection of sources, informations and statistics is slowly getting under way and will be translated by a top slovene-canadian translation/proofreading team! it aint gonna be an easy task but it will be done exclusively for SE and the rest of internetz!


Are you really sure that he would do this just for us? I know that you are in contact with him, but this is a fairly smallish and obscure community.
User avatar
Soviet cogitations: 14448
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Sep 2006, 22:05
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Philosophized
Post 10 Aug 2010, 02:23
I think he means exclusively to the internet not S-E itself. Either way it's going to be an interesting read.
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Soviet cogitations: 3553
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 17 Jul 2006, 00:10
Ideology: Other Leftist
Forum Commissar
Post 10 Aug 2010, 06:26
Quote:
Are you really sure that he would do this just for us? I know that you are in contact with him, but this is a fairly smallish and obscure community.


the book is already available in slovene for free or you can order it from the publisher for 15 euros. regardless people from non-slovene speaking countries still download it and probably translate it with google translate. with the translation available in english everyone will be able to read it and with each download the forces of darkness will grow just a little bit weaker.
Image


Jugoslavija je bleda slika
premrzlega partizana
zato je njeno ljudstvo navajeno trpeti
zato je njeno ljudstvo pripravljeno umreti.

-Via Ofenziva

Forum Rules
Loz
[+-]
User avatar
Soviet cogitations: 11879
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 06 Dec 2009, 23:17
Philosophized
Post 10 Aug 2010, 15:53
Quote:
Why was milosevic charged with genocide

Because he had really cool hair,and western leaders all envied him...
Or because he was the leader of Serbia,and later,Fed. rep. of Yugoslavia and is among the main culprits for the war(and genocide) in Croatia and Bosnia...
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Soviet cogitations: 1537
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 14 Jan 2010, 05:46
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Party Member
Post 13 Aug 2010, 02:03
He did have cool hair
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"Those who do not move, do not notice their chains." - Rosa Luxemburg
Long Live The Bolivarian Revolution!
RIP Muamar Qadafi
RIP Hugo Chavez
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