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Soviet cogitations: 14448
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Sep 2006, 22:05
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Philosophized
Post 13 Jun 2010, 16:11
Loz wrote:
OK.Explain how exactly is my view of socialism "ascientific".


You claim 'true socialism' cannot exist in the presence of religion. There is no scientific basis for such a belief.

Loz wrote:
And why is this "Fundamentalists claim that because they want to prevent the revolution and preserve burgeois power.


Its not the preservation of bourgeoisie power but their own, which is currently facilitated by capitalism. When we replace them with our socialist clergy they'll support us as feverishly as they did the capitalists and as they did the feudalists. Times change and when we pass the point of no return [ie capitalist restoration] it will be as socialist as every other part of our new society.

Loz wrote:
Simple.I say that because there can't be true socialism with living religion" retarded?


Because its based on nonsense and defeatism. You don't fight a revolution and stop when you're halfway through. Its as important that we socialize religion as it is that we socialize the state.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 31 May 2010, 10:44
Pioneer
Post 13 Jun 2010, 16:14
In the long term, religion will at some point have to be "eliminated". Some religions, such as Buddhism, can definitely co-exist with Socialism. But the three Abrahamic religions go against a lot of what Socialism stands for. Islam even goes as far as to say that the sole purpose of humanity is to be the slaves of God, and that worship is the most important thing of all. Beliefs like that simply cannot exist within Socialism.
Loz
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 06 Dec 2009, 23:17
Philosophized
Post 13 Jun 2010, 16:23
Quote:
Because its based on nonsense and defeatism. You don't fight a revolution and stop when you're halfway through. Its as important that we socialize religion as it is that we socialize the state.

Lol.It's not defeatism because i advocate destruction of religion.

Quote:
Its not the preservation of bourgeoisie power but their own, which is currently facilitated by capitalism. When we replace them with our socialist clergy they'll support us as feverishly as they did the capitalists and as they did the feudalists. Times change and when we pass the point of no return [ie capitalist restoration] it will be as socialist as every other part of our new society

Doesn't really matter as long as they're the "spiritual service" of capitalist preservation system.
It's weird to believe that clergy will "swith sides" if communist give them a helping hand.History proves you wrong,as that didn't happen-for example,Tito tried to do just that but the clergy refused.That won't happen as long as there are capitalist countries(like Italy in Tito's case) existing,which provide support to religion and give hope of "religious resurrection" to the clergy,that is,restorement of capitalism which turns the church into a main counterrevolutionary force.
You can't just change religious dogmas,the thing that has been the base of a religion for centuries.
In short,it's impossible or very unlikely to have religion on our side.
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Soviet cogitations: 3765
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 11 Nov 2009, 07:13
Ideology: Other Leftist
Politburo
Post 13 Jun 2010, 16:29
British Kommissar wrote:
But the three Abrahamic religions go against a lot of what Socialism stands for. Islam even goes as far as to say that the sole purpose of humanity is to be the slaves of God, and that worship is the most important thing of all. Beliefs like that simply cannot exist within Socialism.


The virtues of the Abrahamic religions follow many of the same virtues of Socialism. They advocate good will, equality, alms, kindness, overthrowing oppression. There was a whole "bible communism" movement in the 19th century
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Sep 2006, 22:05
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Philosophized
Post 13 Jun 2010, 16:32
British Kommissar wrote:
In the long term, religion will at some point have to be "eliminated".


No it won't, it will die of its own accord. Trying to eliminate just re-invigorates it.

British Kommissar wrote:
Some religions, such as Buddhism, can definitely co-exist with Socialism. But the three Abrahamic religions go against a lot of what Socialism stands for.


All of which go against what Liberalism stands for but religion is not at odds with liberalism because the liberals aren't stupid enough to try to kill it.

British Kommissar wrote:
Islam even goes as far as to say that the sole purpose of humanity is to be the slaves of God, and that worship is the most important thing of all.


No it isn't. Its one of the five most important thing but it is not the most important. And we're not slaves of Allah we're his greatest creations that the entire legion of Angels and Jinn were forced to bow before. The worship is just an acknowledgment of god's supremacy over all, and all equal before him which is about as socialist as you can get. Supplant god with proletariat and you've got our programme.

British Kommissar wrote:
Beliefs like that simply cannot exist within Socialism.


Why? What part of worshipping god five times a day breaks socialism? Islam is possibly more compatible with socialism than any other existent religion, especially 'pacifistic' Buddhism (see: tibet).

Loz wrote:
Lol.It's not defeatism because i advocate destruction of religion.


It is because you claim that's the only victory. Winning religion to our cause is a much greater boon than reinvigorating anticommunist fundamentalism.

Loz wrote:
Doesn't really matter as long as they're the "spiritual service" of capitalist preservation system.


It does matter because they used to be the cheerleaders for feudalism. Hardly any modern religions still advocate feudalism, hence it can be socialized and should.

Loz wrote:
It's weird to believe that clergy will "swith sides" if communist give them a helping hand.


Its not that at all. Its finding the socialist elements that currently exist in local religions and empowering them and their churches.

Loz wrote:
History proves you wrong,as that didn't happen-for example,Tito tried to do just that but the clergy refused.


Established clergy will probably have to be purged just like established bureaucracy will have to be largely purged. Also Tito was a fragging moron.

Loz wrote:
That won't happen as long as there are capitalist countries(like Italy in Tito's case) existing,which provide support to religion and give hope of "religious resurrection" to the clergy,that is,restorement of capitalism which turns the church into a main counterrevolutionary force.


Yeah especially if you go around talking about destroying religion.

Loz wrote:
You can't just change religious dogmas,the thing that has been the base of a religion for centuries.


The transition to capitalism proves you wrong.

Loz wrote:
In short,it's impossible or very unlikely to have religion on our side.


In short you're and ultra-leftist defeatist.

proletarian wrote:
The virtues of the Abrahamic religions follow many of the same virtues of Socialism. They advocate good will, equality, alms, kindness, overthrowing oppression. There was a whole "bible communism" movement in the 19th century


Not to mention liberation theology that greatly impacted socialism in South America.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 11 Nov 2009, 07:13
Ideology: Other Leftist
Politburo
Post 13 Jun 2010, 16:35
Dagoth Ur wrote:
The virtues of the Abrahamic religions follow many of the same virtues of Socialism. They advocate good will, equality, alms, kindness, overthrowing oppression. There was a whole "bible communism" movement in the 19th century


Exactly, try eliminating religion in Latin America. Most of them would rather be oppressed than secular.
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Loz
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 06 Dec 2009, 23:17
Philosophized
Post 13 Jun 2010, 16:41
Quote:
It is because you claim that's the only victory. Winning religion to our cause is a much greater boon than reinvigorating anticommunist fundamentalism.

It's almost like saying that it's possible to "win the burgeoisie on our side"

Quote:
It does matter because they used to be the cheerleaders for feudalism. Hardly any modern religions still advocate feudalism, hence it can be socialized and should.

Capitalism was the logical next step in the development of feudalism.
Socialism,on the other hand,is much more radical change.

Quote:
The transition to capitalism proves you wrong.

No,it proves you wrong.Religion was useful to exploiters in both feudal and capitalist systems.There are no exploiters in socialism.

Quote:
In short you're and ultra-leftist defeatist.

You're not a real atheist and you promote bastard-philosophy of socialism that coexists with religion.
In short,you're a drug dealer.Opium sucks.

Quote:
Not to mention liberation theology that greatly impacted socialism in South America.

It's a marginal movement,compared to official religion there.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 11 Nov 2009, 07:13
Ideology: Other Leftist
Politburo
Post 13 Jun 2010, 16:45
Loz wrote:
There are no exploiters in socialism.

The proletariat are the exploiters in socialism. There are no exploiters in communism
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Loz
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 06 Dec 2009, 23:17
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Post 13 Jun 2010, 16:49
Quote:
The proletariat are the exploiters in socialism

And they're exploiting,who?
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 11 Nov 2009, 07:13
Ideology: Other Leftist
Politburo
Post 13 Jun 2010, 16:52
the bourgeoisie. That's why its called the dictatorship of the proletariat
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Loz
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 06 Dec 2009, 23:17
Philosophized
Post 13 Jun 2010, 16:56
Quote:
That's why its called the dictatorship of the proletariat

It's a SHORT,transitional period.
Socialism is not just DOTP.
It lasts until the burgeoisie-reaction is destroyed.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 11 Nov 2009, 07:13
Ideology: Other Leftist
Politburo
Post 13 Jun 2010, 17:03
but, all bourgeoise elements must be destroyed. This takes awhile. The bourgeoisie isn't destroyed until all bourgeoise thoughts are destroyed i.e. aims of profit, bourgeoise culture, etc. this takes awhile. The DOTP isn't over until proletarians stop thinking like capitalists.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Sep 2006, 22:05
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Philosophized
Post 13 Jun 2010, 17:03
Loz wrote:
It's almost like saying that it's possible to "win the burgeoisie on our side"


Its not but we will need to win significant portions of the petit bourgeoisie to our cause if we wanna have any professionals.

Loz wrote:
Capitalism was the logical next step in the development of feudalism.
Socialism,on the other hand,is much more radical change.


No it isn't. Capitalism was as revolutionary as socialism and socialism is as much the logical conclusion to capitalism as capitalism was for feudalism. You've also ignored that religion has proven able of changing loyalties.

Loz wrote:
No,it proves you wrong.Religion was useful to exploiters in both feudal and capitalist systems.There are no exploiters in socialism.


Yes there are hence the need for a state, who's sole purpose is the oppression of a group at the hands of another. Religion aids us greatly in this and by instituting a socialist clergy we stand much more prepared to battle the fundamentalist aspects of religion.

Loz wrote:
You're not a real atheist


I'm not an atheist. I'm a monotheist bordering on ignosticism.

Loz wrote:
and you promote bastard-philosophy of socialism that coexists with religion.


You promote an ultra-leftist zealous form of socialism that views religion as anathema.

Loz wrote:
In short,you're a drug dealer.Opium sucks.


Actually opium is awesome and since people are gonna use it either way its better they do it right.

Loz wrote:
It's a marginal movement,compared to official religion there.


Doesn't change the fact that it completely disproves your argument that religion can't co-exist with socialism. Liberation theology clearly could.

Loz wrote:
It's a SHORT,transitional period.
Socialism is not just DOTP.
It lasts until the burgeoisie-reaction is destroyed.


Based on what? The state has no purpose outside of oppression of opposing classes and repressing their culture. This will take a long ass time.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 06 Dec 2009, 23:17
Philosophized
Post 13 Jun 2010, 17:58
Quote:
Its not but we will need to win significant portions of the petit bourgeoisie to our cause if we wanna have any professionals.

Or raise a new generation of workers-professionals,like in 30's Soviet Union.Peasant's and hunter' sons became engineers en masse.Millions of working class professionals were created every year.

Quote:
No it isn't. Capitalism was as revolutionary as socialism and socialism is as much the logical conclusion to capitalism as capitalism was for feudalism. You've also ignored that religion has proven able of changing loyalties.

Capitalism preserved exploitation.The radical nature of socialism stems from the idea of common ownership over the means of production,unlike in feudalism or capitalism.

Quote:
Yes there are hence the need for a state, who's sole purpose is the oppression of a group at the hands of another. Religion aids us greatly in this and by instituting a socialist clergy we stand much more prepared to battle the fundamentalist aspects of religion.

No socialist country managed to create a socialist-oriented religion.But,on the other hand,Catholic church was the leading reactionary power in People's republic of Poland.

Quote:
You promote an ultra-leftist zealous form of socialism that views religion as anathema.

Just like Lenin or Trotsky.

Quote:
Doesn't change the fact that it completely disproves your argument that religion can't co-exist with socialism. Liberation theology clearly could.

It's a sect,not a "religion" in the usual sense of the word.

Quote:
Based on what? The state has no purpose outside of oppression of opposing classes and repressing their culture. This will take a long ass time.

That's the purpose of state in this transitional period.
Once the bourgeoisie is destroyed,state becomes a tool of the working class building socialism.
The idea of "repressing the culture" is Maoist nonsense that culminated in the Cultural revolution.
No reasonable socialist would destroy Twain's books just because they were written in capitalist times.
Soviet cogitations: 272
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 22 Feb 2010, 13:54
Komsomol
Post 17 Jun 2010, 18:34
wow wow wow comrades this is a nice debate and all but wow :P a bit of topic :P o well.

Loz you know we could put party members as clergy just like they do in north korea. that could keep religion and advocate the communist cause or you could even have a socialist theocracy. Say that the people are all common under God and socialism is a good way to show/worship God.
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Soviet cogitations: 20
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 31 May 2010, 10:44
Pioneer
Post 18 Jun 2010, 07:16
That's....a terrible idea, Commie77. We shouldn't oppress religion, but we shouldn't promote it either. And using it as some sort of tool to manipulate religious people sounds like something a totalitarian fascist state would do. We don't need to lie to convince people into helping our cause.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Sep 2006, 22:05
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Philosophized
Post 18 Jun 2010, 07:44
Yeah but we need the liars on our side too. Having any state faith system is a pretty terrible idea but that doesn't negate the fact that an allied socialist church is totally preferable to an enemy fascist one.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 31 May 2010, 10:44
Pioneer
Post 18 Jun 2010, 21:08
Christianity, Islam and Judaism would have to go through some pretty major changes before we could consider supporting them. It's kind of hard to think of someone as your comrade and equal when your religion condemns all those who don't follow it to burn in hell.
Last edited by British Kommissar on 19 Jun 2010, 17:40, edited 1 time in total.
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Soviet cogitations: 14448
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Sep 2006, 22:05
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Philosophized
Post 18 Jun 2010, 21:30
British Kommissar wrote:
Christianity, Islam and Judaism would have to go through some pretty major stages before we could consider supporting them.


You can't expect something like this to happen of its own accord. Economic strife crosses all boundaries and in dire times local religion tends to start to express very revolutionary proletarian sentiments. Its out job to find these communities and help them grow beyond momentary populism.

Most workers in the world are religions and no scientist would ignore such a powerful variable as religion. Its called a proletarian cultural hegemony for a reason.

British Kommissar wrote:
It's kind of hard to think of someone as your comrade and equal when your religion condemns all those who don't follow it to burn in hell.


All three of them also espouse thoroughly socialist values. Under socialism a hell of a lot more of what Jesus said we should do will be regularly practiced even by non-christian/muslims just naturally. Just as religion has been molded to capitalist society and reinforce it.

The religion issue results in a single choice:
a) attempt to kill religion and in turn radicalize the faithful against us into a potentially severe counterrevolution
b) attempt to take over religion and gain millions of faithful to our cause and hopefully have them put down their own counterrevolutionary elements
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 22 Feb 2010, 13:54
Komsomol
Post 19 Jun 2010, 16:42
you have a point but us socialists think that workers under a capitalist system are being oppressed and communism or socialism will free them. kind of the same thing. Also religion tries to save people, not condemn them. Just like socialists/communists tries to save/free workers not take there rights away. In religion everyone is equal under God and only he can judge. i think that can fit in with socialism very much. We are all equal, just God is our judge. So every body shoudl follow his and socialist rules with tend to relate a lot.

You are correct about puttin party members in churches is wrong though
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