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Colombia

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Soviet cogitations: 299
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 06 Jul 2009, 10:14
Komsomol
Post 19 Jul 2009, 14:03
How did Jacobo Arenas Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia become an organization based on drug trafficking and kidnapping to fund its effort? From what I read about Jacobo Arenas he was inspired by Che, yet his organization has disintegrated into a corrupt terrorist group who hurts innocent people. Does anyone know more about the history of the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia?
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Soviet cogitations: 3448
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 26 Jun 2006, 15:59
Ideology: Other Leftist
Party Bureaucrat
Post 19 Jul 2009, 14:30
It's pretty simple:
The conditions in Colombia were not the same as in Cuba.
The FARC is a large army stuck in a prolonged war.
It needs to be able to supply itself.
As far as I'm aware the FARC is not involved in drug trafficing, simply taxing the coca farmers (poor peasents growing a perfectly legitimate crop, just like they do in Bolivia).
The moment one accepts the notion of 'totalitarianism', one is firmly locked within the liberal-democratic horizon. - Slavoj Žižek
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Soviet cogitations: 299
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 06 Jul 2009, 10:14
Komsomol
Post 19 Jul 2009, 14:55
You forgot to mention kidnappings. Even Hugo Chavez has denounced them for their radical violence and terror methods. How in the world do they or their supporters even consider themselves the champions of the common man? Marx would be appalled.
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Soviet cogitations: 3448
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 26 Jun 2006, 15:59
Ideology: Other Leftist
Party Bureaucrat
Post 19 Jul 2009, 16:00
Radical violence and terror?

Do you expect a revolution without a revolution? Marx knew what a revolution meant when he called for one.
The moment one accepts the notion of 'totalitarianism', one is firmly locked within the liberal-democratic horizon. - Slavoj Žižek
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Soviet cogitations: 299
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 06 Jul 2009, 10:14
Komsomol
Post 19 Jul 2009, 16:31
What in the world does kidnapping foreign tourists and journalists along with politicians have to do with a revolution? They also fire improvised mortars into towns considered military objectives inadvertently killing civilians due to the inaccuracy. They have no evidence to show that they value human life. How are these people revolutionary's? Revolutionary's are supposed to be on the side of the people.
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Soviet cogitations: 3448
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 26 Jun 2006, 15:59
Ideology: Other Leftist
Party Bureaucrat
Post 19 Jul 2009, 16:38
Quote:
What in the world does kidnapping foreign tourists have to do with a revolution?


Money. Military equipment costs money.

Quote:
They also fire improvised mortars into towns considered military objectives inadvertently killing civilians due to the inaccuracy.


And if the US gave prevision bombers to both sides I'm sure they'd agree to give up the improvised mortars.

Quote:
They have no evidence to show that they value human life.


They really have better things to do than providing you with some.

Quote:
How are these people revolutionary's?


By fighting in a revolution?

Quote:
Revolutionary's are supposed to be on the side of the people.


Who said they're not?
The moment one accepts the notion of 'totalitarianism', one is firmly locked within the liberal-democratic horizon. - Slavoj Žižek
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Soviet cogitations: 299
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 06 Jul 2009, 10:14
Komsomol
Post 19 Jul 2009, 16:41
Quote:
Who said they're not?


By July 2005, the FARC alone had an estimated 2500 kidnapped civilians, without including the number of military servicemen or government officials. Doesn't sound like they really give a shit about people to me. They want power and will kill anyone to get it.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 26 Jun 2006, 15:59
Ideology: Other Leftist
Party Bureaucrat
Post 19 Jul 2009, 16:56
You seem to be making an irrational and emotional response. If they are to seize power (on behalf of the people or otherwise) they must do whatever is necessary to achieve that goal. So far you haven't attempted to argue that their kidnapping policy is counter-productive, or that the strategy of protracted guerilla warfare is destined to alienate the revolutionaries from the class, both of which are rational and potentially correct criticisms, you have simply implied that if extreme violence is used it cannot be a revolutionary organisation, which is nonsensical.
The moment one accepts the notion of 'totalitarianism', one is firmly locked within the liberal-democratic horizon. - Slavoj Žižek
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Soviet cogitations: 299
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 06 Jul 2009, 10:14
Komsomol
Post 19 Jul 2009, 17:01
The ends do not justify the means. I was trying to argue everything you just said but not in so many words. It's amazing how fools can justify anything these days. Whether its terrorist Muslim groups killing American citizens to praise Allah or the FARC funding its war with drugs, kidnapping, and worse. Do revolutionary's actual have standards or is everyone and everything free game to them?
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Soviet cogitations: 3448
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 26 Jun 2006, 15:59
Ideology: Other Leftist
Party Bureaucrat
Post 19 Jul 2009, 17:12
The ends do not justify the means?

So actions should not be judged based on their consequences? If not then based on what? Scripture? That innate "yuk!" response? Sheer moralism!

We can only choose whether we want to fight for socialism or not, the terms on which we do so are not of our own choosing. Are you saying that if a tyrant makes the price of his overthrow too great we should refrain from his overthrow?
The moment one accepts the notion of 'totalitarianism', one is firmly locked within the liberal-democratic horizon. - Slavoj Žižek
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Soviet cogitations: 299
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 06 Jul 2009, 10:14
Komsomol
Post 19 Jul 2009, 17:20
First off don't think for a second I'm speaking from scripture, I'm a secular humanist and atheist. Your operating under the assumption violent or questionable behavior is the only way to make the world a better place (or socialist). And if violence is needed, which I think sometimes it is, why can't their be standards to separate us from the tyrants we are trying to overthrow.

"he who fights with monsters for to long, should take care that he himself does not become a monster" - Nietzsche
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Soviet cogitations: 3448
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 26 Jun 2006, 15:59
Ideology: Other Leftist
Party Bureaucrat
Post 19 Jul 2009, 18:03
I wasn't suggesting that you were actually operating from any written scripture (we all know how violent they tend to be) but if we are to pass ethical judgement on an act of violence we need some criteria for morally evaluating the different options, and if not the consequences of those actions, then what?

Quote:
Your operating under the assumption violent or questionable behavior is the only way to make the world a better place (or socialist).


Not at all. As I mentioned above I am perfectly willing to entertain the strategic merits of less bloody methods. It's condemning an organisation because they are prepared to use methods they deem necessary, not critically evaluating whether or not they actually are necessary, which I was objecting to.

Quote:
And if violence is needed, which I think sometimes it is, why can't their be standards to separate us from the tyrants we are trying to overthrow.


There are standards. We should be as brutal as necessary, but no more.

You'll see again it comes down to that word "necessary" because we don't live in a world in which we can set the terms of our own emancipation, I wish that we could, but we cannot.
The moment one accepts the notion of 'totalitarianism', one is firmly locked within the liberal-democratic horizon. - Slavoj Žižek
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Soviet cogitations: 299
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 06 Jul 2009, 10:14
Komsomol
Post 19 Jul 2009, 18:56
Well spoken Whitten. Now do you or anyone else know some of the history behind the FARC aside from what I can gather from wikipedia? I'm interested in learning more.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 17 Sep 2008, 17:13
Pioneer
Post 21 Jul 2009, 03:17
I wouldn follow the imperialists and dismiss FARC as a narco-terrorist guerilla.

The ideological and politial basis of the FARC is the same as always; national liberation , peoples power and socialism and Latin-american unity.

We must in this difficult periode for FARC continue to support them as the whole international communist movement and antiimperialist movement does in general.

Viva FARC!

Marulanda y Arenas viven!
"For us there is no valid definition of socialism other than the abolition of the exploitation of one human being by another."
Soviet cogitations: 686
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 03 Jul 2009, 15:17
Unperson
Post 22 Jul 2009, 23:18
The FARC aren't narco-terrorists; they're Revolutionaries, like 4.Nov1923 said.

Viva FARC!
"Without revolutionary theory there cannot be a revolutionary movement." - Vladimir Lenin, What Is To Be Done?
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Soviet cogitations: 299
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 06 Jul 2009, 10:14
Komsomol
Post 23 Jul 2009, 06:29
Mikhail Belovolk wrote:
The FARC aren't narco-terrorists; they're Revolutionaries, like 4.Nov1923 said.

Viva FARC!


I don't condone kidnapping. Therefore they are no comrade of mine.
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Soviet cogitations: 148
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 07 Feb 2009, 16:56
Pioneer
Post 23 Jul 2009, 19:31
Read the last paragraph

Quote:
Reflections by comrade Fidel



PAX ROMANA



I basically drew these data from statements made by William Brownfield, US ambassador to Colombia, from that country’s press and television, from the international press, and other sources. It’s impressive the show of technology and economic resources at play.

While in Colombia the senior military officers went to great pains to explain that Ingrid Betancourt’s rescue had been an entirely Colombian operation, the US authorities were saying that “it was the result of years of intense military cooperation of the Colombian and United States’ armies.”

“’The truth is that we have been able to get along as we seldom have in the United States, except with our oldest allies, mostly in NATO,’ said Brownfield, referring to his country’s relationships with the Colombian security forces, which have received over 4 billion USD in military assistance since the year 2000.”

“…on various occasions it became necessary for the US Administration to make decisions at the top levels concerning this operation.

“The US spy satellites helped in locating the hostages during a month period starting on May 31st until the rescue action on Wednesday.”

“The Colombians installed video surveillance equipment, supplied by the United States. Operated by remote control, these can take close-ups and pan along the rivers which are the only transportation routes through thick forests, said the Colombian and US authorities.”

“US surveillance aircraft intercepted the rebels’ radio and satellite phone talks and used imaging equipment that can break through the forest foliage.”

“’The defector will receive a considerable sum of the close to one- hundred-million-dollars reward offered by the government’, stated the Commander General of the Colombian Army.”

On Wednesday, July 1st, the London BBC reported that Cesar Mauricio Velasquez, press secretary at Casa de Nariño (Colombian Government House) had informed that delegates from France and Switzerland had met with Alfonso Cano, chief of the FARC.

According to the BBC, that would be the first contact with international delegates accepted by the new chief after the death of Manuel Marulanda. The false information of the meeting of two European envoys with Cano had been released in Bogota.

The deceased leader of the FARC had been born on May 12, 1932, according to his father’s testimony. Marulanda, a poor peasant with a liberal thinking and a Gaitan follower, had started his armed resistance 60 years back. He was a guerrilla before us; he had reacted to the carnage of peasants carried out by the oligarchy.

The Communist Party he later joined, the same as every other in Latin America, was under the influence of the Communist Party of the USSR and not of Cuba. They were in solidarity with our Revolution but they were not subordinated to it.

It was the drug-traffickers and not the FARC that unleashed terror in that sister nation as part of their feuds over the United States market. They caused powerful bomb blasts and even blew up trucks loaded with plastic explosives destroying facilities and injuring or killing countless people.

The Colombian Communist Party never contemplated the idea of conquering power through the armed struggle. The guerrilla was a resistance front and not the basic instrument to conquer revolutionary power, as it had been the case in Cuba. In 1993, at the 8th FARC Conference, they decided to break ranks with the Communist Party. Its leader, Manuel Marulanda, took over the leadership of that Party’s guerrillas which had always excelled in their narrow sectarianism when admitting combatants as well as in their strong and compartmented commanding methods.

Marulanda, a man with a remarkable natural talent and a leader’s gift, did not have the opportunity to study when he was young. It is said that he had only completed the 5th grade of grammar school. He conceived a long and extended struggle; I disagreed with this point of view. But, I never had the chance to talk with him.

The FARC became considerable strong with over 10 thousand combatants. Many had been born during the war and had known nothing else. Other leftist organizations rivaled the FARC in the struggle. By then the Colombian territory had become the largest source of cocaine production in the world. Then, extreme violence, kidnappings, taxes and demands from the drug producers became widespread.

The paramilitary forces, armed by the oligarchy, drew basically from the great amount of men enlisted in the country’s armed forces who were discharged from duty every year without a secure job. These created in Colombia a very complex situation with only one way out: real peace, albeit remote and difficult as many other goals Humanity have set itself. This is the option that, for three decades, Cuba has advocated for that nation.

While our journalists meeting in their 8th Congress debated on the new technologies of information, the principles and ethic of social communicators, I meditated on the abovementioned developments.

I have expressed, very clearly, our position in favor of peace in Colombia; but, we are neither in favor of foreign military intervention nor of the policy of force that the United States intends to impose at all costs on that long-suffering and industrious people.

I have honestly and strongly criticized the objectively cruel methods of kidnapping and retaining prisoners under the conditions of the jungle. But I am not suggesting that anyone laid down their arms, when everyone who did so in the last 50 years did not survive to see peace. If I dared suggest anything to the FARC guerrillas that would simply be that they declare, by any means possible to the International Red Cross, their willingness to release the hostages and prisoners they are still holding, without any precondition. I do not intend to be heard; it is simply my duty to say what I think. Anything else would only serve to reward disloyalty and treason.

I will never support the pax romana that the empire tries to impose on Latin America.



Fidel Castro Ruz

July 5, 2008

8:12 p.m.
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Soviet cogitations: 136
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 17 Sep 2008, 17:13
Pioneer
Post 26 Jul 2009, 04:18
FARC have their problems but are still, an revolutionary force to be reckoned with in Colombia and Latino America, in the struggle against imperialism and for peoples power and socialism.

We should support their struggle. This is maybe more important than ever because of the mentioned problems inside FARC after the death of prominent leaders such as RAul Reyes, Marulan Marulanda and Ivan Marquez and the intensified efforts by the Uribe-government and CIA/USA to exterminate both the leadership and FARC as a whole.

In face of the progressive development in Latin Amerika maybe the imperialist want to use FARC as propaganda-tool to scare people, or as a moral thing if they would be able to finish them off. Already they are alleging that FARC supported the electoral campaing of R.Correa of Ecuador, and the before-said links to Chavez, Cuba etc is well-known.

We should be alert and uphold the support for FARC and ELN etc, in addition to the PCC(com party) and Polo Democratico Alternativo which is the electoral-front of the working-class and left-forces in Colombia.

When I was attending the 32nd Festival of KNE and Odigitis in Athens I met representatives of FARC. They were first-class revolutionaries. They couldn state openly that they were FARC because of greek/imperialist "anti-terror"forces of the state apparatus threatening to arrest them etc. Well, you all probabaly know about the FARC-people being extradited to the US for sentencing on drug-charges etc in additiion to the thousands of political prisoners in Colombian prisons and other countries also.

The veneszuelan party publishes now and then statements etc of the FARC. This is one from July where FARC talks about Colombia, Honduras etc:
http://www.pcv-venezuela.org/index.php? ... 4&Itemid=1


I will finish by saying that in Denmark - there is an organisation called Fighters + Lovers who is supporting FARC and PLFP. Some memebers of this group, and the group as an whole, have been targeted by the state and the legal-system in Denmark for allegedly supporting terroristi like FARC,PFLP. They gathered money and sent to FARC and PFLP. This is a crime in Denmark obviously.

Anyway, they got an fact-site about FARC in addition to an document for downloading named "FARC and the war in Colombia". This is the link: http://www.fightersandlovers.org/spip.php?article33

I wish evryone who wish to find out more about FARC and support their just struggle towards freedomn for the colombian and latinamerican people good luck!
"For us there is no valid definition of socialism other than the abolition of the exploitation of one human being by another."
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Soviet cogitations: 10765
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 21 Dec 2004, 23:53
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Philosophized
Post 03 Aug 2009, 19:21
@Red_Bull:

Here is a good thread on kidnapping. The FSLN used kidnapping successfully to gain funds in the 1960s and most of the 1970s; inculding taking over the entire Nicaraguan congress (~1,000 people) in August of 1978. This gained the FSLN a half of million dollars and they had 59 of their comrades freed from jail. The FMLN also used kidnapping as a means of wealth distribution:

Quote:
The rationale of kidnapping. The kidnappings were intentionally condemned as wanton acts of terrorism. They were certainly violations of human rights. Nevertheless, we should try to understand the rationale behind them. The Salvadorian oligarchy’s large fortunes and control of the national economy were reinforced in the 1960s and 1970s by the arrival of multinationals, which brought their executives and paid workers an average salary of $4 per day. The vast majority of people continued to live in abject poverty with no hope of improving their lot. FMLN Commander Roberto Canãs explained kidnappings were viewed as means of recouping of this wealth for the people, to share and develop the political struggle for their liberation. He denied that all the money was used to buy arms; much of it has been used to build popular organizations. The armed struggle is necessarily a part of the struggle,” he concluded, “not because we would have chosen that path but because there is no other way to wrest political and economic power from the forces and change and change the structures to be just and humane system.”

Montgomery. Revolution in El Salvador: From Civil Strife to Civil Peace. Westview Press, Boulder. 1995.


Whitten hit the nail on the head with the coca taxation. Another former revolutionary group in Colombia was the 19th of April Movement (M-19). In 1981 they had the idea to take on the drug cartels as well as the government: because both were bad. In 1981 they kidnapped the Martha Nieves Ochoa, a sister of a prominent drug dealer in the Medellín Cartel. In 1981 Muerte a Secuestradores (MAS) or "death to kidnappers" was formed by the drug cartels and aided by the military (and School of Assassins) to kill revolutionaries. M-19 doesn't exist any more. FARC-EP basically governs large amounts of territory in Colombia and they run a government in areas they control. Part of governing is taxation.

You as stated "They want power and will kill anyone to get it." Don't lie to yourself: our goal is to seize state power.

T 34's posted the Reflection by Fidel, "PAX ROMANA" and I highly suggest reading that. Besides that here are two other good reads: Demystifying the FARC-EP & People's Struggle in Latin America.
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"By what standard of morality can the violence used by a slave to break his chains be considered the same as the violence of a slave master?" - Walter Rodney
Soviet cogitations: 3448
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 26 Jun 2006, 15:59
Ideology: Other Leftist
Party Bureaucrat
Post 03 Aug 2009, 19:34
Guerrilla Girl is a great documentary for understanding the FARC.
The moment one accepts the notion of 'totalitarianism', one is firmly locked within the liberal-democratic horizon. - Slavoj Žižek
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