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Cuba ends car import embargo.

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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 07 Dec 2013, 14:24
Ideology: Democratic Socialism
Unperson
Post 06 Jan 2014, 15:12
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... ation.html

Apologies for the Daily Mail link, but good to see the benevolence of the regime towards the masses. They will be allowed to drive new cars.
but I have read somewhere that an import tax of 100% will be applied to new cars, which means only the very wealthy will be able to afford them. I hope those classics they have been driving since the 50s attract a huge prices from collectors in the US. As they'll need that money to buy a new one.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-25595674

Link from the Beeb...but that is probably lies!

I love this quote from the Beeb site:

"But one Cuban resident, Daniel Rojas, asked: "At these prices, how many people can buy the cars? So where's the money to invest in public transport if no-one can buy them?""

Daniel is currently missing...
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Sep 2006, 22:05
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Philosophized
Post 06 Jan 2014, 21:57
Reading Yami's posts remind me of Social_Critic over on PoFo.

Also why the shit do they need cars? Cuba isn't that big an island, and auto emissions ruin local atmosphere. Personal car ownership is bourgeoisie to begin with.
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Loz
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 06 Dec 2009, 23:17
Philosophized
Post 06 Jan 2014, 22:51
Quote:
Also why the shit do they need cars?

Why do they need cars in Lichtenstein or Luxembourg?

Quote:
Personal car ownership is bourgeoisie to begin with.

Nonsense. And it's "bourgeois".

Anyway a shitty new Chinese/Japanese small car that would go for 15-20k dollars anywhere else will cost, so i've heard, up to 100k dollars in Cuba thanks to the government's taxes. What a despicable theft by the government.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Sep 2006, 22:05
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Post 06 Jan 2014, 22:57
Loz wrote:
Why do they need cars in Lichtenstein or Luxembourg?

I don't need a car in rural America. Why they shit do they?

Loz wrote:
Nonsense. And it's "bourgeois".

It is. It's irresponsible and a waste of resources. That's bourgeoisie to a T.

loz wrote:
Anyway a shitty new Chinese/Japanese small car that would go for 15-20k dollars anywhere else will cost, so i've heard, up to 100k dollars in Cuba thanks to the government's taxes. What a despicable theft by the government.

Yeah except the Cuban government is the one who is going to have to clean up after these trash-heaps, have to maintain these roads, maintain a system of insurance for the people, provide fuel for the people, etc. The only reasons our cars are that cheap is because the expect us to pay for all the other parts ourselves.
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Loz
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 06 Dec 2009, 23:17
Philosophized
Post 06 Jan 2014, 23:02
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I don't need a car in rural America. Why they shit do they?

Yes you do. You need it in the suburbs and you can't live without a car in 99% of rural America with farms several kilometers apart from each other.
In "communist" countries you need a car even more, if you got families outside Havana to get fresh meat/fruit from you have to have a car. In Yugoslavia which was miles ahead of Cuba people started eating way better once they got a car to haul stuff from the relatives in the villages.

Quote:
It is. It's irresponsible and a waste of resources. That's bourgeoisie to a T.

There's no shortage of communists who were both irresponsible and a waste of resources. Say what you want but having a car is liberating.


Quote:
Yeah except the Cuban government is the one who is going to have to clean up after these trash-heaps, have to maintain these roads, maintain a system of insurance for the people, provide fuel for the people, etc. The only reasons our cars are that cheap is because the expect us to pay for all the other parts ourselves.

Even the shittiest capitalist countries do all of that at least as good as the Cuban state does. And if Cuba had highways they'd be charging road tax just like anywhere else.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Sep 2006, 22:05
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Post 06 Jan 2014, 23:11
Loz wrote:
Yes you do.

Let's be clear, you're telling me what I need?

Loz wrote:
You need it in the suburbs and you can't live without a car in 99% of rural America with farms several kilometers apart from each other.

Except America isn't like this except the deep country. And they barely need cars because they don't go anywhere. And nearly all suburbs have public transport so that's not even an argument.

Loz wrote:
In "communist" countries you need a car even more, if you got families outside Havana to get fresh meat/fruit from you have to have a car. In Yugoslavia which was miles ahead of Cuba people started eating way better once they got a car to haul stuff from the relatives in the villages.

Instead of wasting resources on personal cars both countries should have invested in more public transport.

Loz wrote:
There's no shortage of communists who were both irresponsible and a waste of resources. Say what you want but having a car is liberating.

There are a lot of bourgeoisie communists. Also how is a debt, an insurance fee, and a fuel bill liberating? Oh I can drive somewhere and have no money when I get there.

Loz wrote:
Even the shittiest capitalist countries do all of that at least as good as the Cuban state does. And if Cuba had highways they'd be charging road tax just like anywhere else.

What's the rate of car ownership even in Croatia? I doubt it's very high.
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Loz
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 06 Dec 2009, 23:17
Philosophized
Post 06 Jan 2014, 23:23
Quote:
Let's be clear, you're telling me what I need?

I think you're generalizing too much. America is notorious for being the least pedestrian-friendly country in the world and everyone will say that you simply have to have a car there.

Quote:
Except America isn't like this except the deep country. And they barely need cars because they don't go anywhere. And nearly all suburbs have public transport so that's not even an argument.

Well i've heard otherwise. Anyway i might be wrong, but that's doesn't matter. Obviously people in Cuba want to have cars.

Quote:
Instead of wasting resources on personal cars both countries should have invested in more public transport.

You can't set up bus lines that are half-empty most of the time, that's also a waste of resources.

Quote:
There are a lot of bourgeoisie communists. Also how is a debt, an insurance fee, and a fuel bill liberating? Oh I can drive somewhere and have no money when I get there.

Well it's liberating since you can go wherever you want whenever you want. Of course you have to pay for it but that's how it is.

Quote:
What's the rate of car ownership even in Croatia? I doubt it's very high.

Behind Bulgaria and ahead of South Korea according to Wiki. But still Croatia has way better roads than Cuba and so do most countries in the world, including some serious shitholes.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Sep 2006, 22:05
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Post 06 Jan 2014, 23:49
Loz wrote:
I think you're generalizing too much. America is notorious for being the least pedestrian-friendly country in the world and everyone will say that you simply have to have a car there.

Oh it certainly isn't pedestrian friendly but that you cannot get around without a car is a flat-out myth (excepting extremes like the deep country and ridiculously sprawling cities like L.A.). This is American Car Culture bullshit.

Quote:
Well i've heard otherwise. Anyway i might be wrong, but that's doesn't matter. Obviously people in Cuba want to have cars.

How is that obvious? When'd you last ask a Cuban about transport policy? This seems more like the Cubans trying to find a way out of funding transportation themselves and placing the burden on the people.

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You can't set up bus lines that are half-empty most of the time, that's also a waste of resources.

Yeah but less wasteful than a giant chunk of metal and hydrocarbons in every driveway.

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Well it's liberating since you can go wherever you want whenever you want. Of course you have to pay for it but that's how it is.

It's not liberating if you can't afford to really go and do stuff somewhere. Most people I know with cars work so much to keep up with all the bills that they couldn't afford going anywhere. And even then most of their cars are so close to completely broke down that it probably wouldn't even make a 60 mile trip.

Quote:
Behind Bulgaria and ahead of South Korea according to Wiki. But still Croatia has way better roads than Cuba and so do most countries in the world, including some serious shitholes.

Yeah name one other country that has been purposefully obstructed like Cuba. Not just in deals with America but even obstructing deals with basically every advanced country in the world (including the USSR).
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 07 Dec 2013, 14:24
Ideology: Democratic Socialism
Unperson
Post 07 Jan 2014, 12:21
It’s bourgeoisie to use a car? The spirit of Pol-pot is alive and well, at least on the net.
One of the criticisms I’ve heard about socialists is that they want us to return to caves, on the strength of some of the arguments here I’d say they have a point.
Socialism is surely about progress, using technology to improve our lives. Why would we do away with cars, maybe there will be less on the roads, I don’t know. That would be for people who live under socialism to decide.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Sep 2006, 22:05
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Post 07 Jan 2014, 17:05
Everyone having a car isn't progress.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 07 Dec 2013, 14:24
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Unperson
Post 07 Jan 2014, 17:24
Dagoth Ur wrote:
Everyone having a car isn't progress.


No, but everyone having the option of having a car is.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Sep 2006, 22:05
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Post 07 Jan 2014, 19:24
No it isn't. Anymore than it is progressive to give everyone the option to own an airplane or tracts of land. Resources are not infinite and such luxury isn't even materially possible. This isn't even counting the fact that road-sprawl and automobiles are two of the biggest polluters in existence. 7 billion cars, awesome our atmosphere will be 500 Celsius in just a few decades.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 01 Mar 2011, 14:10
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Komsomol
Post 08 Jan 2014, 01:09
For what it's worth, Albania collectivized vehicle ownership.

From William Ash, Pickaxe and Rifle, 1974, p. 218:
Quote:
There are no private cars in Albania. Though motor cars and lorries are not yet made there, the export surplus is ample to buy from abroad all the transport needed and there are the skills and factories to service them and supply all the spare parts required. At first cars were made available to individual citizens on a points system, as in the Soviet Union or Eastern Europe, but some owners were charging those who did not possess them yet for lifts and there was keen competition to get one's name higher up on the list. This was seen as generating the kind of selfish bourgeois ethics rooted in private possession. So all cars were withdrawn and gathered into pools from which collectives can take what they need for work or recreation or for the use of foreign guests. The effort and investment which might have gone into supplying individual families with cars has gone instead into developing an excellent system of public transport with fares constantly being reduced toward the point of a completely free system of transport.
Loz
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 06 Dec 2009, 23:17
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Post 08 Jan 2014, 02:02
Albanians couldn't afford donkeys ( these too were collectivized! ) let alone cars.
Funny enough, if you look at photos of Albania from the 70s-80s you'll see that the government officials mostly preferred Mercedeses', a passion Albanians still cling on to. Hoxha's body was driven around in a Mercedes after he died IIRC.
There rest were Chinese trucks and Soviet cars from the 50s that you couldn't see even in the USSR by that time such as Pobedas and so on.
Also i highly doubt that Albania had a good system of public transportation if only because of its geography. Not to mention the lack of fuel and spare parts ( Albanians made their first bicycle in the late 70s ). Everyone who had been there back then noted that there were almost no vehicles on the roads, even in Tirana.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 19 Mar 2005, 20:08
Embalmed
Post 08 Jan 2014, 02:26
Loz, do you own a car or drive one regularly?
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"Bleh, i don't even know what i'm arguing for. What a stupid rant. Disregard what i wrote." - Loz
"Every time is gyros time" - Stalinista
Loz
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 06 Dec 2009, 23:17
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Post 08 Jan 2014, 02:44
No, i wouldn't even have the money for gas anyway. Why?
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 19 Mar 2005, 20:08
Embalmed
Post 08 Jan 2014, 03:06
Dohhh, I thought Yami's posts were actually yours. But yeah, I think you could benefit from the perspective of someone who drives every day. It's a pain in the ass and only worth it in the suburbs where distances are enormous and bus service generally sucks. There is no real point to owning a car in the city because parking is expensive and you don't really have anywhere to drive to justify the expense. Cuba doesn't really have suburbs of cities, and the ones that it does have are built around rail lines. Cars do save a lot of time commuting (unless it's a route that everyone takes, in which public transit is usually a better idea) but they also affect the choices you make about where you live. It's easier to live far from a supermarket if you have a car, but it also requires supermarket trips to be more rare, which has an impact on your food choices, as it becomes easier to rely on pre-processed food. It also creates social distance as you have to drive to meet a friend, which costs money, instead of going across the street, which is free. So basically, in Cuba, there are not many reasons to have a car, unless you are disabled, have to travel across the countryside a lot, want to make money from being an unlicensed cab driver or have a job which requires you to be on time to meetings in different places at weird hours, so a government official.
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"Bleh, i don't even know what i'm arguing for. What a stupid rant. Disregard what i wrote." - Loz
"Every time is gyros time" - Stalinista
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 15 Nov 2012, 01:18
Komsomol
Post 08 Jan 2014, 03:52
I'm not a supporter of car use in cities, in fact, it should be fought against actively, but tell me how I'm supposed to bring buckets of fruits, berries and vegetables from my dacha without a car.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 07 Dec 2013, 14:24
Ideology: Democratic Socialism
Unperson
Post 08 Jan 2014, 10:24
sans-culotte wrote:
I'm not a supporter of car use in cities, in fact, it should be fought against actively, but tell me how I'm supposed to bring buckets of fruits, berries and vegetables from my dacha without a car.


Speedboat? Or would we not be allowed to own them either under 'socialism'?
Look, if we did not have transport, we would not be able to travel very far and we'd have to go back to marrying the girl next door.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 01 Mar 2011, 14:10
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Komsomol
Post 08 Jan 2014, 19:01
Loz wrote:
Everyone who had been there back then noted that there were almost no vehicles on the roads, even in Tirana.
Ash did point out that children played on the streets of Tirana without worry. Another visitor to the country in 1989 said that traffic lights had recently been installed in Tirana but that otherwise cars rarely passed by.

Scott Nearing, who visited Albania in the late 60s, recalled: "Talking to a skillful chauffeur who maneuvered us over dozens of hairpin turns on the mountain roads, I called his attention to the small amount of motor traffic that we encountered on the well-built roads. 'By the way,' I asked, 'how many motor vehicles do you have on your highways?' His answer was a classic: 'Just enough for our needs. When we need more we will import more. We keep a large foreign exchange balance in our favor, and we pay cash.'"
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