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The End of Cuban Socialism

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Soviet cogitations: 10769
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 21 Dec 2004, 23:53
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Philosophized
Post 16 Dec 2013, 06:03
BBC wrote:
White House says Obama-Castro handshake 'not planned'

Image


President Barack Obama and Cuban President Raul Castro's handshake at Nelson Mandela's memorial service was unplanned, the White House has said.

White House aide Ben Rhodes told reporters the two exchanged nothing more substantive than a greeting.

The Cuban government said the gesture may show the "beginning of the end of the US aggressions".

The US broke off diplomatic ties with Cuba in 1961 as Fidel Castro aligned with the Soviet Union in the Cold War.

And on Tuesday after the handshake, a White House official said the Obama administration still had grave concerns about human rights violations in Cuba, Reuters reported.

Republicans on Capitol Hill were quick to condemn the gesture, with one Republican congresswoman chiding the move during an unrelated hearing on Tuesday.

"Sometimes a handshake is just a handshake, but when the leader of the free world shakes the bloody hand of a ruthless dictator like Raul Castro, it becomes a propaganda coup for the tyrant," Florida Congresswoman Ileana Ros-Lehtinen, who is known for her opposition to the Castro government, told Secretary of State John Kerry.

"Could you please tell the Cuban people living under that repressive regime that, a handshake notwithstanding, the US policy toward the cruel and sadistic Cuban dictatorship has not weakened."

Gradual thaw disrupted
The last time a US president shook a Cuban leader's hand was in 2000, when President Bill Clinton greeted President Fidel Castro, Raul's brother and predecessor, at a UN General Assembly meeting.

Under President Obama, the US has eased restrictions on Cuban-Americans travelling to the island and on remittances between family members across the two countries.

But the gradual thaw has been disrupted by the detention in Cuba of a US contractor.

Alan Gross, 64, was arrested four years ago while on a project to provide internet access to Cuba's small Jewish community.

On the fourth anniversary of his arrest, he wrote to Mr Obama to say he feared the US government had "abandoned" him, and asked the US president to intervene personally to help win his release.


Shocked that any of the Cuba haters didn't post this and use it as further "proof" of the demise of socialism in Cuba.
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"By what standard of morality can the violence used by a slave to break his chains be considered the same as the violence of a slave master?" - Walter Rodney
Soviet cogitations: 1533
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Oct 2007, 15:55
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Party Member
Post 16 Dec 2013, 22:44
Not surprised, tbh... Didn't Fidel try to shake Tony Blair's hand at some summit and Blair gave him some disgusted look and refused to shake it?
We have beaten you to the moon, but you have beaten us in sausage making.- Nikita Khrushchev
Loz
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Soviet cogitations: 11879
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 06 Dec 2009, 23:17
Philosophized
Post 16 Dec 2013, 22:55
That must be the worst sarcasm i've seen in years.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 04 Aug 2004, 20:49
Ideology: Democratic Socialism
Embalmed
Post 17 Dec 2013, 16:39
Worst. Post. Ever.

I don't see anything in a handshake, Bary Obame probably didn't even know who the shit anybody near him was, considering how far up his own arse he is. My MP is similar, I keep informing him that he's a wanker and useless for pushing for public transport (he's a tory, so he's generally opposed to anything like that), and he keeps refusing to accept that he knows who I am already.
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"Phil Spector is haunting Europe" -Dr. Karl H. Marx
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 07 Oct 2004, 22:04
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Resident Soviet
Post 18 Dec 2013, 04:40
I see what you did there RR, but it did give me a jump there for a second, given the dramatic title, which I would have automatically written off had it not been for the "OP: Red Rebel".

I don't think the Cubans are ever the ones to refuse reaching out. It's usually been US policy to act like dicks, and this is interesting, given that Cuba never had a program which tried dozens of times to assassinate the US president.
"The thing about capitalism is that it sounds awful on paper and is horrendous in practice. Communism sounds wonderful on paper and when it was put into practice it was done pretty well for what they had to work with." -MiG
Soviet cogitations: 1533
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Oct 2007, 15:55
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Party Member
Post 18 Dec 2013, 17:46
Erichs_Pastry_Chef wrote:
I don't see anything in a handshake, Bary Obame probably didn't even know who the shit anybody near him was, considering how far up his own arse he is.


Isn't that pretty much the standard for Western leaders? Obama, asshole, Cameron, asshole, Harper, asshole.. Elite educated snobs who bend over for corporations. You can clearly make out the difference between leaders of the West and those of poor countries.

I wish people would see beyond Obama showing up on Saturday Night Live or that he plays basketball and go OMG HE'S ONE OF US!
We have beaten you to the moon, but you have beaten us in sausage making.- Nikita Khrushchev
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 06 Jul 2013, 16:25
New Comrade (Say hi & be nice to me!)
Post 19 Dec 2013, 19:20
Soviet192491 wrote:
Not surprised, tbh... Didn't Fidel try to shake Tony Blair's hand at some summit and Blair gave him some disgusted look and refused to shake it?


They met at a summit. Castro recounted that Blair was talking about ending child labour and he pointed out to him the number of children who were working in contemporary Britain. Ha!
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 21 Dec 2004, 23:53
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Philosophized
Post 25 Dec 2013, 06:55
Loz wrote:
That must be the worst sarcasm i've seen in years.

EPC wrote:
Worst. Post. Ever.

soviet78 wrote:
I see what you did there RR, but it did give me a jump there for a second, given the dramatic title, which I would have automatically written off had it not been for the "OP: Red Rebel".


S-E has been pretty inactive, hoped to jump start some activity.


Hopefully will get a Mandela and Klashnikov thread up and running soon.
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"By what standard of morality can the violence used by a slave to break his chains be considered the same as the violence of a slave master?" - Walter Rodney
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Soviet cogitations: 589
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 07 Dec 2013, 14:24
Ideology: Democratic Socialism
Unperson
Post 30 Dec 2013, 15:11
End of Cuban socialism? It never ever began. It’s a hell hole where the basics are rationed. Except to the Castro’s. Where there are no free trade unions, freedom of speech, movement, assembly etc. It’s just a state capitalist regime at its best/worst.
The government has been trying to re-orientate the economy towards tourism to bring in essential foreign currency. This means that goods are produced solely to be consumed by tourists are the Cuban workers are denied these. The wages system still exists there and there is no legal right to strike, ever union offical has to be vetted and passed by the state. The workers can't do that! You can be arrested without trail in Cuba and there are numerous laws to stop and harrass free speech and alterative political parties. So much for freedom and democracy.
Soviet cogitations: 112
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 28 Apr 2013, 20:13
Pioneer
Post 30 Dec 2013, 22:18
Yami wrote:
End of Cuban socialism? It never ever began. It’s a hell hole where the basics are rationed. Except to the Castro’s. Where there are no free trade unions, freedom of speech, movement, assembly etc. It’s just a state capitalist regime at its best/worst.
The government has been trying to re-orientate the economy towards tourism to bring in essential foreign currency. This means that goods are produced solely to be consumed by tourists are the Cuban workers are denied these. The wages system still exists there and there is no legal right to strike, ever union offical has to be vetted and passed by the state. The workers can't do that! You can be arrested without trail in Cuba and there are numerous laws to stop and harrass free speech and alterative political parties. So much for freedom and democracy.


Oh please. Do you actually have any source for your claims? You are as bad as right-wingers who go on about how Castro is an 'oppressor' or whatever. Are you aware of all the good things Castro has done for Cuba? Compare Cuba before the 1959 Revolution to what it was afterward.

Cuba was, and is socialist. Why would it not be? The working class seized power from Batista and his cronies which were backed by the United States. People have free speech in Cuba, and labour unions do exist. And "you can be arrested without trial in Cuba"? Let's hear some proof to back up your claims.
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Soviet cogitations: 589
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 07 Dec 2013, 14:24
Ideology: Democratic Socialism
Unperson
Post 30 Dec 2013, 22:38
Workers Revolution wrote:

Oh please. Do you actually have any source for your claims? You are as bad as right-wingers who go on about how Castro is an 'oppressor' or whatever. Are you aware of all the good things Castro has done for Cuba? Compare Cuba before the 1959 Revolution to what it was afterward.

Cuba was, and is socialist. Why would it not be? The working class seized power from Batista and his cronies which were backed by the United States. People have free speech in Cuba, and labour unions do exist. And "you can be arrested without trial in Cuba"? Let's hear some proof to back up your claims.


Say, I can play this game too! Aren't you aware of all the good things that the conservative party/republican party has done? Compare the UK before 1959 to what is was afterward.

Cuba, never ever was socialist. The working class sezied power for Castro and his cronies which were backed by the USSR.
There is not free speech in Cuba.

Article 144(17) of the criminal code prohibits disrespect to authority; Articles 200–201 preventing the spread and cause of panic and disorder have been used to imprison people publicly voicing criticisms; Article 103 prohibits 'enemy propaganda' which is interpreted as anyone inciting criticism of the Cuban system and its international allies; Article 203 criminalises disrespect to the flag and symbols of the regime; Article 115 prevents the dissemination of 'false news against international peace'; and the piece de résistance is articles 72–74 which forbid anything 'dangerous', which can be anything the police and courts decide are so.

Although Cuba nominally has 100 percent post-16 suffrage, this is restricted to candidates approved by the Committee for the Defence of the Revolution.
Soviet cogitations: 112
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 28 Apr 2013, 20:13
Pioneer
Post 30 Dec 2013, 23:09
Yami wrote:
Say, I can play this game too! Aren't you aware of all the good things that the conservative party/republican party has done? Compare the UK before 1959 to what is was afterward.

LOL what good things? You mean all of the privitisations done by Thatcher which enabled more exploitation and oppression of the proletariat than ever before? You mean all of the imperialists missions, like those embarked in the Falklands? You mean the anti-gay laws which were enacted and stood until 2003? And what has the Republican Party done... led the US to more recession, imperialism & militarism, and oppression of various peoples within the United States, and even more exploitation of the working class? For someone claiming to be "socialist", you sure seem to be doing a lot of bashing on actual progressive socialist countries and praising capitalist parties and organisations...

Also, you're avoiding my question, so I'll repeat: Are you aware of all the good things Castro has done for Cuba?

Yami wrote:
Cuba, never ever was socialist. The working class sezied power for Castro and his cronies which were backed by the USSR.
There is not free speech in Cuba.


And what is your definition of socialism? Because Castro and his "cronies" were proletarians who rebelled against the illegitimate right-wing government and were successful. This revolution was supported by the masses and was done in the interest of the masses. Is this not socialism?
And yes, Cuba was allies with the Soviet Union. So what? I don't see anything wrong with that.

Yami wrote:
Article 144(17) of the criminal code prohibits disrespect to authority; Articles 200–201 preventing the spread and cause of panic and disorder have been used to imprison people publicly voicing criticisms; Article 103 prohibits 'enemy propaganda' which is interpreted as anyone inciting criticism of the Cuban system and its international allies; Article 203 criminalises disrespect to the flag and symbols of the regime; Article 115 prevents the dissemination of 'false news against international peace'; and the piece de résistance is articles 72–74 which forbid anything 'dangerous', which can be anything the police and courts decide are so.


So Cuba is penalizing counter-revolutionary activity... so what? In any country, threat to state security and and spreading "panic and disorder" would of course be illegal. Also, a lot of what you say is biased, such as "...anyone inciting criticism of the Cuban system and its international allies" which is a blatant lie. You really think that is anyone merely criticized the system in Cuba they'll be locked away?
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 01 Mar 2011, 14:10
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Komsomol
Post 31 Dec 2013, 08:50
Yami wrote:
Cuba, never ever was socialist. The working class sezied power for Castro and his cronies which were backed by the USSR.
To be fair, the Soviet revisionists didn't fully trust Castro until the late 60s and the Cuban revisionists in the 50s were denouncing his rebellion, which had zero contacts with the USSR. When Castro came to power he explicitly denounced Communism as "totalitarian" and Che Guevara argued that there was no class basis for the rebel forces.

After Castro denounced Mao as a "fascist" and praised the Soviet invasion of Czechoslovakia Cuba became slavishly supportive of Soviet revisionism, yes.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 07 Dec 2013, 14:24
Ideology: Democratic Socialism
Unperson
Post 31 Dec 2013, 11:55
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_cuba
If this is freedom and socialism then call me a cab. Cuba is a byzantine dictatorship which is on its way out. When the regime falls I’m heading to South beach for the biggest party its ever seen.
I’d rather have Thatcher than Castro. At least we could vote her out and despite all her moans about the trade unions and anti-trade union laws wages, in real terms, were higher when she left office. Thatcher also spent more money than anybody else on the NHS. Oh and Thatcher also fought & won war over the Falklands islands and as result of that victory a fascist dictator was ousted from office. Result!
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 19 Mar 2005, 20:08
Embalmed
Post 31 Dec 2013, 13:51
Yami wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_cuba
If this is freedom and socialism then call me a cab. Cuba is a byzantine dictatorship which is on its way out. When the regime falls I’m heading to South beach for the biggest party its ever seen.
I’d rather have Thatcher than Castro. At least we could vote her out and despite all her moans about the trade unions and anti-trade union laws wages, in real terms, were higher when she left office. Thatcher also spent more money than anybody else on the NHS. Oh and Thatcher also fought & won war over the Falklands islands and as result of that victory a fascist dictator was ousted from office. Result!


So once again, since you ignored my question last time, what exactly is your problem with capitalism? Please answer in concrete terms and not using slogans.
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"Bleh, i don't even know what i'm arguing for. What a stupid rant. Disregard what i wrote." - Loz
"Every time is gyros time" - Stalinista
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Soviet cogitations: 589
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 07 Dec 2013, 14:24
Ideology: Democratic Socialism
Unperson
Post 31 Dec 2013, 15:33
My problem with capitalism?

Well it is a system that benefits the minority at the expense of the majority, the working class. Under capitalism goods are produced for a profit and not to satisfy the needs of the people. We know that capitalism can feed, clothe and house everybody on the planet to a higher standard than ever before achieved, yet people are homeless and other go hungry. So capitalism although it has the potential to satisfy our needs and want, can't due to the profit motive.
Above all else its the profit motive that comes first under capitalism even our real needs come a poor second to the profit motive.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 28 Apr 2013, 20:13
Pioneer
Post 31 Dec 2013, 20:58
Yami wrote:
If this is freedom and socialism then call me a cab. Cuba is a byzantine dictatorship which is on its way out. When the regime falls I’m heading to South beach for the biggest party its ever seen.
I’d rather have Thatcher than Castro. At least we could vote her out and despite all her moans about the trade unions and anti-trade union laws wages, in real terms, were higher when she left office. Thatcher also spent more money than anybody else on the NHS. Oh and Thatcher also fought & won war over the Falklands islands and as result of that victory a fascist dictator was ousted from office. Result!


You'd rather have Thatcher than Castro? You'd rather have a right-wing Reagan-esque anti-socialist dictator than an actual progressive socialist democratic leader? Then you're no true socialist. And yes, Castro was democratically elected and actually held less constitutional power than the majority of leaders do in the Western world. And I love how you keep spewing nonsense about how 'Castro is a dictator!' or 'Cuba has no rights!' and yet, you give nothing to back it up.

Thatcher spent more money on the NHS? What about all the stuff Castro and the Cuban government has done for their healthcare? Hm? I mean, Cuba does have a higher life expectancy and lower infant mortality rate than the United States does. Cuba now has among the finest universal healthcare systems in the world. And are these progressive changes nothing to you? All you're doing is focusing on some supposed dissidents Castro supposedly had jailed, rather than focusing on everything he did to make Cuba great.
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Soviet cogitations: 589
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 07 Dec 2013, 14:24
Ideology: Democratic Socialism
Unperson
Post 31 Dec 2013, 21:29
Funny that the exodus is one way...from Cuba to the US, but never the other way!

If Cuba is such a great place to live why are people prevented from leaving? Why do Cubans risk life and limb to escape this paradise?

Yes, I would rather live under Thatcher or Reagan than under Castro as at least I can call them c**ts without fear of arrest, at least I can vote against them in a free election with a secret ballot. You cannot do that in Cuba.
Yeah, their healthcare is impressive but in prison, the food, the electricity, the clothes, the water, the books, the films and the rent is free!
Soviet cogitations: 112
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 28 Apr 2013, 20:13
Pioneer
Post 01 Jan 2014, 01:28
Yami wrote:
Funny that the exodus is one way...from Cuba to the US, but never the other way!

If Cuba is such a great place to live why are people prevented from leaving? Why do Cubans risk life and limb to escape this paradise?


I never once said that Cuba was a 'paradise'. It's far from perfect but it's definitely no dictatorship, unless you mean the dictatorship of the proletariat.

Do some people flee the island of Cuba? Yes, they do. Most of these people, however, are upper-class who do not support Castro. But, the vast majority of Cubans do support the government. And you think people have never fled the U.S. or other capitalist countries, for socialist ones? And your notion of those Cubans who don't support Castro get thrown in jail is simply ridiculous. And you provide sources for none of your claims.

Yami wrote:
Yes, I would rather live under Thatcher or Reagan than under Castro as at least I can call them c**ts without fear of arrest, at least I can vote against them in a free election with a secret ballot. You cannot do that in Cuba.
Yeah, their healthcare is impressive but in prison, the food, the electricity, the clothes, the water, the books, the films and the rent is free!


There are elections in Cuba.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 01 Mar 2011, 14:10
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Komsomol
Post 01 Jan 2014, 07:27
Yami wrote:
Funny that the exodus is one way...from Cuba to the US, but never the other way!
Pretty sure if Senegal had a "socialist" revolution that matched your specifications there wouldn't be some huge exodus of Britons to it either, so what's your point? There were lots of Americans who went to the USSR in the 30s in search of a new life, but this was because of the Great Depression at home and the fact that the Soviet economy could offer all sorts of jobs to tons of immigrants, something Cuba can not do. Otherwise there's not much incentive to pack your bags up and go to a country whose culture is totally different from yours and where you'll be away from family and friends.

Quote:
If Cuba is such a great place to live why are people prevented from leaving?
From a post of mine elsewhere:
Quote:
Al Szymanski in his Human Rights in the Soviet Union does give a historical overview of the "freedom to emigrate," and notes that it was the development of capitalism in places like Britain which created a surplus population of ex-peasants who were obliged to emigrate elsewhere for work because they could not be maintained at home, where they helped form the reserve army of unemployed. From this grew the "freedom" to emigrate.

He notes that, "There are substantial reasons why 'the right to emigrate', together with the right to publicly express political ideas contrary to the official ideology have historically been the two most generally restricted 'rights'; both directly affect the common economic health and ideological security. Labour - the source of all wealth - is a vital national resource. If a substantial portion of a country's population, or a substantial proportion of those with specific vital skills, were to leave a country, its overall economic situation would be substantially weakened. Since the purpose of any state is to advance the welfare of that class which controls the wealth of any country, it thus follows logically that no state will allow the exit of any substantial portion of its population, unless the economic and political costs of maintaining it within the national boundaries exceed the costs of allowing to leave." (pp. 23-24.)

He notes that the most important rights are those within the country itself: right to a job, right to national equality, etc. The "right to emigration" is not only a concept contained within capitalist ideology, but is also cynically used by its ideologists, for whom emigration from their own countries, as centers of imperialism, is of no consequence, though they have (and continue to) imposed travel restrictions on various countries.
And this is ignoring that many of those who leave Cuba are either reactionaries, are enticed by promises of wealth and opportunity, or have family in the USA.
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