Quote: ![]() "By what standard of morality can the violence used by a slave to break his chains be considered the same as the violence of a slave master?" - Walter Rodney
Admirable for Cuba to help out, the strongest expression of solidarity. Unlike a certain nation in the same conflict.
Thanks for the article RR. It's good to remember Cuban heroism here, and in other African struggles, including Mozambique, Ethiopia, and many other countries, which made it one of the strongest proponents of of global revolutionary socialism.
Red Commissar wrote: Who? China? Last edited by soviet78 on 24 Nov 2010, 05:15, edited 1 time in total.
"The thing about capitalism is that it sounds awful on paper and is horrendous in practice. Communism sounds wonderful on paper and when it was put into practice it was done pretty well for what they had to work with." -MiG
Soviet cogitations: 4779
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 12 May 2010, 07:43 Ideology: Other Leftist Politburo
Maybe that was a swipe at the USSR & the PRC for their lack of support, but then "in the same conflict" doesn't seem to make sense.
“Conservatism is the blind and fear-filled worship of dead radicals” - Mark Twain
But the USSR did support Angola tremendously as well. It provided the transport capacity to ferry the Cubans over to the country in the heady days of late 1975. It didn't have combat forces there but did provide military advisors, some of whom also died in the conflict. The USSR didn't play nearly as tremendous a role as Cuba -especially considering the latter's relative size, but it played an important role nonetheless. That's why I'm hoping RC didn't mean the USSR.
"The thing about capitalism is that it sounds awful on paper and is horrendous in practice. Communism sounds wonderful on paper and when it was put into practice it was done pretty well for what they had to work with." -MiG
I was referring to China's support for the UNITA and the NLFA, an example of what the Three Worlds Theory meant for revolutionaries in Africa if they got caught up in an area that China opposed the Soviets in.
I am from Namibia and I don't feel the same way about Cuban internationalism. The Cuban presence in Angola prolonged the war in Angola and it strengthened the resolve of the racist South African government to keep control of Namibia.
The Angolan civil war lasted until 2002, By then the Cubans were long gone. Interesting to note that some people think that the Cuban officers, that were mainly white were just as racist as the racist South Africans. Major Igor Zhdarkin fought in Angola as a Soviet adviser. He was at Cuito Cuenevale. He wrote a book, "We did not see it even in Afghanistan". A quote from his book : "I don’t want to say anything bad about the South Africans because they fought well and competently, because they were whites, because I myself am white and because South Africans related to us as whites to whites. Strangest of all, the white Cubans would say – «We, as they say, are ready to shake hands with the white South Africans». This could have been ascribed also to racism."
Soviet cogitations: 2408
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 01 Nov 2003, 13:17 Ideology: Other Forum Commissar
So SWAPO you do not appreciate Cuba's assistance to Angola?
Soviet cogitations: 2880
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 16 Nov 2005, 17:55 Party Bureaucrat
Ultimately, it's a matter of perspective.
True, Cuban presence prolonged the war in Angola. However, before Cuba had arrived in the picture in the form of troops on the ground, the apartheid South African government already had a presence in Angola pre-independence; Cuban involvement prevented the collapse of MPLA, and gave them a fighting chance, therefore prolonging the war and preventing a quick UNITA victory. I do agree that South Africa's presence in Namibia might have been prolonged as a result of the continuing war in Angola, because South Africa needed to use Namibia as a base of operations to preserve its dominance over Angolan affairs, which Cuba was sabotaging through their presence. Ultimately, the Cuban mission offered to withdraw in 1988-1991 contingent on Namibian independence, administered by SWAPO. I wouldn't expect Castro to settle for Namibia to become "independent" under a neo-colonial quisling who would continue American and South African intrigues. In both cases, Cuba's presence prevented Angola and Namibia from becoming puppet states of racist South Africa and the US (which made them supporters of true liberation and not just nominal liberation). Of course, as pointed out, Angola's civil war continued into 2002, precipitated by continuing US aid to UNITA insurgents and controversies over the first elections conducted after the 1991 peace accords and Cuban withdrawal. Of course, by that time Cuban internationalism had to take a backseat, as Cuba lost close to half its GDP during that period; you can't blame Cuba for not being able to counter the US in the 1990s, but at least earlier Cuban support gave dos Santos and the MPLA a stronger footing to able to handle the new phase of the civil war. ![]() "History is a set of lies agreed upon." --Napoleon Bonaparte
Marshal Konev has already eloquently explained virtually everything that I would have wanted to. I would only add that it is not the fault of the Cubans (or any other progressive forces fighting in Angola) that their opponents waged such a long, dirty and destructive campaign (planting landmines in croplands and bombing industry and infrastructure). As for South Africa's stability, the revolutions and wars throughout southern Africa only worked to destabilize the Apartheid Regime, and my own view is that if the USSR did not withdraw from conflicts around the world (and Cuba, East Germany, and others with her), it would only be a matter of time before the White regime was overthrown to be replaced by a leftist government.
As for Mr. Zhdarkin, I've taken a look at his Russian language memoirs, and my translation of the Russian version of the memoirs goes like this: "I do not want to say anything bad about the South African soldiers, because they fought well and competently, they were white, and we were treated by them as whites to whites (I had already talked about the ultimatum). The funny thing is that the white Cubans said "we, as the saying goes, are ready to shake hands with the white South Africans." Maybe this is racism. But even the blacks from both sides treated each other the same way. Among other things, we were soldiers and were all carrying out our duties." That is a direct translation (I don't know who carried out the English-language one). As you can see this version changes the meaning of the passage somewhat. However, even if it does indicate some racism on the part of Zhdarkin or some white Cubans, it was the action of progressive nations, not the views of a few perhaps foolish individuals, which ultimately counted. The Soviets and the Cubans fought on the side of black liberation struggle against racist and imperialist injustice -this is a historical fact. "The thing about capitalism is that it sounds awful on paper and is horrendous in practice. Communism sounds wonderful on paper and when it was put into practice it was done pretty well for what they had to work with." -MiG
Quote: I don't fully agree with this statement. Cuban presence would never have prevented South Africa from retaining close ties with South Africa. Large groups of both countries' population share a common history and culture (to some extent). Not even 20 years of SWAPO rule could change that. I stand firm to say that it only hardened Pretoria's resolve to keep control of Namibia. The only reason why the Apartheid government remained in power for so long, was the white minorities fear of socialism. Unlike popular believe, the US never really had much influence over Namibian and South African politics or way of thinking. (Their poisonous cultural influence through mass media is another matter.) Quote: How much of Cuban internationalism is not really aimed at countering American Imperialism ? This to me is a reactive rather than a proactive gesture, which lacks sincerity. I would also like to have Cuba's presence in Ethiopia in the 60's explained to me. I have to point this very ironic fact out. The MPLA's later successes against UNITA can be ascribed, to a lesser extent, to the presence of ex-SADF mercenaries that fought on the side of the MPLA against UNITA. After the fall of Apartheid there was no place fore some of the SADF veterans in the new SADF. I am of the opinion that 1) Africans must solve Africa's problems. Foreign involvement in Africa did more harm than good. Why is it that foreign assistance always comes in the form of military hardware and advise ? 2) Victory could only be achieved by the political will of the people, not through military might. Yet it is always the useless military actions that are glorified. Southern Africa (Namibia and South Africa) gained their independence and freedom through peacful means, not through war. soviet78 wrote: This is true. Soviet advisers were actively involved in the FAPLA campaign of 1987. Quote: I do not agree with this. I am of the opinion that it served the interest of the Apartheid Government to have wars in their neighbouring countries. Unstable neighbours enabled Pretoria to strike at guerilla bases without much hindrance. There are numeroud reports of South African Agents that attacked guerilla bases in Lesotho, Botswana, Mozambique, Zimbabwe. This would not have been possible if these countries had not been tavaged by civil wars. It gave them an excuse to maintain a strong military and "justified" some of their oppresive laws. The Apartheid system isolated the regime from the Western world. The presence of Cuba and the USSR in Angola (as example) allowed them limited support in the rest of the World, otherwise sanctions would have forced them to their knees. Quote: I thank you for giving the correct translation. In my defence I was not responsible for the translation. It was done for my by a friend that knows a bit of Russian. I do apologise on his behalf for getting this wrong. I still feel that this points to some racism, that still places some question marks on the Cuba's internationalism claim. I do have to point out that most of the PLAN fighters speak with fondness of their Cuban comrades, most did find it strange that most of the Cuban oficers were white, while the soldiers were black. Please forgive my harsh opinions, but this is Africa. Each country has numerous tribes and cultures. Most of the logic, politics and arguements will be influenced by this.
Welcome to SE, SWAPO! Your posts are very interesting but I'll have to ask you to avoid double posting. Try putting everything in one post so we can avoid having too many posts in one topic. No problem however, you're new here, keep up the good work!
![]() Jugoslavija je bleda slika premrzlega partizana zato je njeno ljudstvo navajeno trpeti zato je njeno ljudstvo pripravljeno umreti. -Via Ofenziva Forum Rules
Thanks for the welcome. I will try to stop the double posting.
I would like to emphasise that I respect the opinion of others. The fact that I disagree and share alternate views should not be seen as disrespect.
have no fear, i wont be deleting your posts because you disagree with others. i'm only here to ensure civil debate, not censoring others opinions. however, if i may, i would politely ask you to make a post in introduction forum. i'm sure many people would like to know more about you since we dont get many people from africa. of course this is not necessary, but it is recommended. that is all, have fun and enjoy!
![]() Jugoslavija je bleda slika premrzlega partizana zato je njeno ljudstvo navajeno trpeti zato je njeno ljudstvo pripravljeno umreti. -Via Ofenziva Forum Rules
Soviet cogitations: 2880
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 16 Nov 2005, 17:55 Party Bureaucrat Quote: I would consider "resistance to imperialism" a component of internationalism and solidarity; Cuba was helping Angola preserve its hard-won, fragile independence against a desperate attempt by South Africa and the United States to retain real neo-colonial control over Angolan affairs following Portugal's departure. After all, that has been the modus operandi of the dominant western powers in Africa, as Kwame Nkrumah had identified in 1965. Generally, most countries act out of self-interest, but in spite of that, I tend to think there was some degree of sincerity in Cuba's actions. If we are talking about the US, USSR, South Africa, or any other regional or global power getting involved in Angola, then economic self-interest would be an obvious motive. However, for Cuba, a small country of limited resources that was regionally isolated, to reach out to the MPLA the way it did and not demand or gain much in return suggests to me an honest effort to help a friend (Agostinho Neto, in this case), while temporarily earning some extra good will around the world. Quote: I did not say that. What I was saying was that Cuba prevented Angola and Namibia from being puppet states of South Africa. Obviously, those nations would have close ties, but it's the nature of these ties that was in consideration. Quote: Not necessarily true because 1. Without Cuban and USSR support in Angola and other parts of Africa, you would have most Western puppets doing business with South Africa (such as Angola) out of practicality. 2. Countries like the US and Britain only nominally supported these sanctions. In reality, there were several US and British companies in South Africa with lucrative mining contracts (like Anglo American PLC, for example), sponsored by a business-friendly, albeit apartheid, government. Regardless of Cold War geopolitics, the economic interest that the powerful mining sector had in South Africa would have been enough to render these sanctions useless. ![]() "History is a set of lies agreed upon." --Napoleon Bonaparte
Has any of you called Marxists know the suffering, hunger, blood, and missery that the cuban people had to endure in order for Castro to gain a leader recognition in the world? Does any of you know the billions of dollars invested in Castro's image that could so well have been used in taking Cuba out of the ridiculous economic and social situation in which it stands today?
Soviet cogitations: 2880
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 16 Nov 2005, 17:55 Party Bureaucrat
If you have objective details and statistics, it would be interesting to know further.
![]() "History is a set of lies agreed upon." --Napoleon Bonaparte |
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