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North Korean war crimes

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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 07 Dec 2013, 14:24
Ideology: Democratic Socialism
Unperson
Post 21 Feb 2014, 16:13
Is that what socialists do? Threaten to bomb, main and kill other workers? NO!
Our war is waged on the ideological battlefield we are for peace and the capitalists are for war.
If you can only keep order through the gun then you don't deserve to be in power and you do not represent the workers.
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Soviet cogitations: 2293
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Aug 2010, 14:21
Party Bureaucrat
Post 21 Feb 2014, 16:23
Ahah, I think you are speaking about Jesus ans not communists. Communists are not "for peace", they are for war against the bourgeoisie.
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"Fishing is part of agriculture" Gred
"Loz, you are like me" Yami
"I am one of the better read Marxists on this site" Gred
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 14 Feb 2014, 12:33
Pioneer
Post 21 Feb 2014, 17:03
You do know there is a reason why Dennis Rodman, a friend of Kim Jong-un, describes KJU life as "7-star", and tells reporters he visited him in one of his palaces, right? If the people could, they would probably government, theres a reason why China is closing its borders to North Korea, so many people are voting with their feet - they can't change the system, sure, but they can leave it.

You're simplifying a great deal, claiming that the world is black-and-white, Marx would never support such a position. Its not good versus evil, as you like to think.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Aug 2010, 14:21
Party Bureaucrat
Post 21 Feb 2014, 17:16
After all the slanders about North Korea being a "monarchy", kim "killing his own people", being "racist" and building "palaces" you dare say that it is ME who claim that the world is black-and-white and simplify things? You are quite cheeky.
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"Fishing is part of agriculture" Gred
"Loz, you are like me" Yami
"I am one of the better read Marxists on this site" Gred
Soviet cogitations: 108
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 14 Feb 2014, 12:33
Pioneer
Post 21 Feb 2014, 18:00
How is North Korea not a monarchy? From 1994(i think, don't remember the year), Kim Jong-il was the only member of the Presidium (Politburo) of the WPK - what do you think that means? Does that signal party control, or Kim control? From 1993 until this day, only one Central Committee meeting has been convened, think last year. What you think that mean? The Secretariat was also dorment in this period. It means that, on the central-level, Kim ruled as a monarch. It doesn't help either that the last party congress was held in 1980, effectively making it impossible for lower-level party organizations to hold the WPK General Secretary to account. If North Korea is not a monarchy, Saudi Arabia is not a monarchy, Jordan is not a monarchy, and so on. You don't give power to 28 year old son, who is without any experience in politics, if you don't believe that family succession is ideal, and if family succession is ideal, well, then you have a monarchy. .. FEUDALISM
The Chinese should invade, and reestablish communist control, or turn it over to South Korea - anything would be better!
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Sep 2006, 22:05
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Philosophized
Post 21 Feb 2014, 22:12
Dude feudalism isn't family members succeeding each other and that's not monarchy either. Point to one place, in writing, where the Kims are the only ones who can rule Korea. Every monarchy on earth writes such things down.
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Soviet cogitations: 108
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 14 Feb 2014, 12:33
Pioneer
Post 21 Feb 2014, 23:27
They've amended the "Ten Principles for the Establishment of a Monolithic Ideological System" to state that the revolution will be "eternally" led by the "Baekedu bloodline" (that is, the Kim family).. .The Ten Principles is North Korea's most important ideological document, so yes, monarchy
... And no, you don't have to be a de jure monarchy for people to understand its a monarchy - its certainly not socialism when one-man rules the central party leadership, that is dictatorship and is completely at odds with the WPK's role as a vanguard party.

http://english.chosun.com/site/data/htm ... 01106.html
http://www.scmp.com/news/asia/article/1 ... principles
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Sep 2006, 22:05
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Philosophized
Post 21 Feb 2014, 23:35
A South Korean paper and a Hong Kong one eh? Cool story bro. I can't find any mention of this supposed "update" from any source other than right-wing papers and sites. Even Wiki's, with its clearly noted anti-DPRK sentiment, doesn't include this bullshit. When there are so many legitimate reasons to question the DPRK why do you feel the need parrot bullshit lies?
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Aug 2010, 14:21
Party Bureaucrat
Post 22 Feb 2014, 00:14
Monarchies have a complex system of inheritence and nobility, the eldest is the one who takes over. In North Korea Jong-Un wasn't the eldest, and even before that Jong-Il had some problems with his inheritence too, we were not sure at the time if he would inherit his father's position. So North Korea isn't a monarchy, only in a metaphorical sense. But when we see that a "democratic" country as the US managed to have two presidents from the same family, a father and his son, in only a few years, even though there are MILLIONS of americans citizens, such criticism can't be applied only to North Korea. Puppet Korea's president is Park Geun-hye, granddaughter of puppet dictator Park Chung-hee!


According to KCNA: "The revolutionary traditions of Mt. Paektu serve as an everlasting bloodline giving steady continuity to the Korean revolution and eternal treasure of Songun Korea."

So basically this "Paektu bloodline" represents "THE TRADITIONS", so nothing more than Kim Il Sung's political principles. It's not an actual "bloodline".
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"Fishing is part of agriculture" Gred
"Loz, you are like me" Yami
"I am one of the better read Marxists on this site" Gred
Soviet cogitations: 1128
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 30 Aug 2008, 18:12
Party Member
Post 22 Feb 2014, 14:14
You can still see that it is quite clearly a monarchy, if not in the classical sense. Are you just saying it's by pure chance that Kim Jong Il and Kim Jong Eun both succeeded their fathers as paramount leader? It doesn't need to be "written down" in order for it to actually be a monarchy. Not having it written down doesn't mean that it cannot materially exist. Marx talks about this when he analyses bourgeois society. On the face of it (i.e. on paper) bourgeois society is perfectly equal because everyone has the same inalienable rights. But of course private property and the subsequent classes mean that materially it is far from equal.

Plus I can't find any instance of Kim Jong Un actually being elected in a general election. Therefore he has literally inherited power.

Quote:
According to KCNA: "The revolutionary traditions of Mt. Paektu serve as an everlasting bloodline giving steady continuity to the Korean revolution and eternal treasure of Songun Korea."

So basically this "Paektu bloodline" represents "THE TRADITIONS", so nothing more than Kim Il Sung's political principles. It's not an actual "bloodline".


I think that quote can be interpreted in multiple ways, but the use of the word "bloodline" is pretty strong. If they meant "political principles", why didn't they say it?

Quote:
The Brazilian Communist Party posted on its internet website the detailed gist of "Children of Revolutionary Martyrs Should Become Dependable Backbone of Songun Revolution That Gives Steady Continuity to Bloodline of Mangyongdae, Bloodline of Mt. Paektu", a letter the dear respected Kim Jong Un sent to the teachers and students of Mangyongdae Revolutionary School and Kang Pan Sok Revolutionary School on Oct. 15 on the occasion of their 65th anniversary.

The letter published on October 12, 2012 says the schools are Kim Il Sung-Kim Jong Il revolutionary schools which were founded and developed under the care of the great persons of Mt. Paektu and centers for training the backbone of the Songun revolution.


http://www.kcna.co.jp/index-e.htm

Pretty clear they're talking about the actual family rather than "political principles".
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Aug 2010, 14:21
Party Bureaucrat
Post 22 Feb 2014, 14:36
"The revolutionary traditions of Mt. Paektu serve as an everlasting bloodline"

Do you know what a TRADITION is?

How is "bloodline" stronger than "tradition"?

If your slanders were true Kim Jong Un's uncled couldn't have been killed because he also had the "bloodline", as much, if not more, than his nephew, for he was the SON of Kim Il Sung, thus having a purest "bloodline".

Unless you are unable to understand proper English, there is nothing in your quotation that allows you to say: "Pretty clear they're talking about the actual family." Nothing! On the very contrary, the article is speaking about students (and not Kim Jong Un's children) who will become "the pillars and backbone forces of the Songun revolution who will give steady continuity to the bloodline of Mangyongdae, the bloodline of Mt. Paektu."

Your hatred of Korea has apparently greatly deteriorated your ability to understand English. Anticommunism doesn't make people smarter.
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"Fishing is part of agriculture" Gred
"Loz, you are like me" Yami
"I am one of the better read Marxists on this site" Gred
Soviet cogitations: 1128
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 30 Aug 2008, 18:12
Party Member
Post 22 Feb 2014, 15:07
Helpful tip: it's not a good idea to go around criticising native speakers of English when you yourself are clearly not a native speaker.

Quote:
"The revolutionary traditions of Mt. Paektu serve as an everlasting bloodline"

Do you know what a TRADITION is?


This implies the traditions are preserved in the form of a bloodline.

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If your slanders were true Kim Jong Un's uncled couldn't have been killed because he also had the "bloodline", as much, if not more, than his nephew, for he was the SON of Kim Il Sung, thus having a purest "bloodline".


Wrong. Jang Song Thaek was only Kim Jong Un's uncle by marriage (he married Kim Jong Il's sister). Thus he is not of the family bloodline. Another helpful tip: if he had been the son of Kim Il Sung then he would have been called Kim Song Thaek.

Quote:
On the very contrary, the article is speaking about students (and not Kim Jong Un's children) who will become "the pillars and backbone forces of the Songun revolution who will give steady continuity to the bloodline of Mangyongdae, the bloodline of Mt. Paektu."


The quote implies the students will be the pillars and backbone of the revolution who will support the bloodline of the Kim dynasty. Mangyongdae is the house where Kim Il Sung was born and Mount Paektu is where Kim Jong Il was supposedly born. You can't claim that this refers to all students in North Korea since they are not of the Kim bloodline. Also note that in this quote there is absolutely no mention of traditions.

Quote:
Your hatred of Korea has apparently greatly deteriorated your ability to understand English. Anticommunism doesn't make people smarter.


Well since I've actually been to North Korea and am a fluent speaker of English I'm going to trust my interpretation over you and your crass insults.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Aug 2010, 14:21
Party Bureaucrat
Post 22 Feb 2014, 16:05
Quote:
Helpful tip: it's not a good idea to go around criticising native speakers of English when you yourself are clearly not a native speaker.

No but I'm a Frenchman.


Quote:
This implies the traditions are preserved in the form of a bloodline.

No it implies that the traditions "serve" and not "are preserved" as a bloodline. Why are you trying to deform the text?

Quote:
The quote implies the students will be the pillars and backbone of the revolution who will support the bloodline of the Kim dynasty. Mangyongdae is the house where Kim Il Sung was born and Mount Paektu is where Kim Jong Il was supposedly born. You can't claim that this refers to all students in North Korea since they are not of the Kim bloodline. Also note that in this quote there is absolutely no mention of traditions.

The mention of traditions is contained inside: " who grew up under the care of the three commanders of Mt. Paektu", thus implying that it isn't blood but tradition and education that are relevant. In this quotation, students will GIVE steady continuity to the bloodline and not defend or ensure this continuity. Thus I can say that this idea of bloodline is mostly metaphorical OR badly translated.

As Kim Jong Un says:

It is not that the children of a revolutionary grow up to be revolutionaries simply because they have inherited the lineage of their parent. As the great generalissimos said, man’s blood may be inherited, but not his ideology.

This is from Kim Jong Un's work referred in your article. Is it possible to be clearer?

Now if we look further , those students must "[befit] the sons and daughters of Mangyongdae and Mt. Paektu who grew up under the care of the three commanders of Mt. Paektu." What you say about Mangyongdae is right, but you forget that Mangyongdae is also the revolutionary school in question. There, "the care of the three commanders" can be understood as the education received by Kim 3 from Kim 2 and probably kim 1. But you can also understand it as "the care" given by those commanders to the Mangyongdae school. Or as Kim Jong Un says:

Having implanted in the minds of the students of Mangyongdae Revolutionary School the faith with which to trust and follow only the leader while studying with them, Generalissimo Kim Jong Il spared nothing to build up the school and Kang Pan Sok Revolutionary School as bases for the training of the backbone of our revolution and as comfortable homes of their students.


And about the other commander:

"Kim Jong Suk, the anti-Japanese heroine, was the benevolent mother of the students of the revolutionary school and a great teacher; she took maternal care of them in their living and led the sons and daughters of revolutionary martyrs step by step to bring them up to be the successors to the revolution."

So yes your English is better than mine, and you might have been in North Korea (or not). But your understanding isn't because it is blinded by your anticommunism and rabid hatred against North Korea.
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"Fishing is part of agriculture" Gred
"Loz, you are like me" Yami
"I am one of the better read Marxists on this site" Gred
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Sep 2006, 22:05
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Philosophized
Post 22 Feb 2014, 20:10
"Guys it's a monarchy because a father was succeeded by his sons!"
But that happens in presidential republics too, a lot.
"Yeah but it's a monarchy"
Why?
"Their leaders are related!"

Yeah when you come up with anything stronger than this we'll seriously talk about the whole monarchy nonsense (which for a communist should be pretty low on the list of legitimate issues facing the DPRK).

Oh and gRed is apparently refusing to accept that there are such a thing as cultural difference and that the application of "bloodline" is apparently poetic. Much like every other thing the DPRK says. I hear it's a Korean thing from Koreans.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 30 Aug 2008, 18:12
Party Member
Post 23 Feb 2014, 00:59
Quote:
No it implies that the traditions "serve" and not "are preserved" as a bloodline. Why are you trying to deform the text?


If they simply want to preserve traditions then why do they need to even mention "bloodline" at all? Bloodline is a very specific word and I doubt they would have used it without having very specific connotations in mind.

Quote:
The mention of traditions is contained inside: " who grew up under the care of the three commanders of Mt. Paektu", thus implying that it isn't blood but tradition and education that are relevant. In this quotation, students will GIVE steady continuity to the bloodline and not defend or ensure this continuity. Thus I can say that this idea of bloodline is mostly metaphorical OR badly translated.


Or you could say that students "giving continuity" implies that they should support the continuity of this bloodline. Again if they merely meant the "traditions" of Mangyondae and Mt Paektu then why did they use the word bloodline?

Quote:
As Kim Jong Un says:

It is not that the children of a revolutionary grow up to be revolutionaries simply because they have inherited the lineage of their parent. As the great generalissimos said, man’s blood may be inherited, but not his ideology.

This is from Kim Jong Un's work referred in your article. Is it possible to be clearer?


The bit I was quoting was from the article dated October 13 2012 (Kim Jong Un Calls upon Children of Revolutionary Martyrs to Become Reliable Backbone of Songun Revolution) on the KCNA website. Your quote is not in that article. Even so it is quite possible that the Kims themselves don't publicly support the notion of bloodline, even though the rest of the North Korean government does. Stalin always said he was opposed to his cult of personality but he never did anything to stop it!

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Now if we look further , those students must "[befit] the sons and daughters of Mangyongdae and Mt. Paektu who grew up under the care of the three commanders of Mt. Paektu." What you say about Mangyongdae is right, but you forget that Mangyongdae is also the revolutionary school in question. There, "the care of the three commanders" can be understood as the education received by Kim 3 from Kim 2 and probably kim 1. But you can also understand it as "the care" given by those commanders to the Mangyongdae school. Or as Kim Jong Un says:

Having implanted in the minds of the students of Mangyongdae Revolutionary School the faith with which to trust and follow only the leader while studying with them, Generalissimo Kim Jong Il spared nothing to build up the school and Kang Pan Sok Revolutionary School as bases for the training of the backbone of our revolution and as comfortable homes of their students.


Again if they were referring to the Mangyongdae revolutionary school they would have said so (they have shown they are quite capable of referring to it in that way)! Also you make no attempt to counter their references to the "commanders of Mt Paektu."

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And about the other commander:

"Kim Jong Suk, the anti-Japanese heroine, was the benevolent mother of the students of the revolutionary school and a great teacher; she took maternal care of them in their living and led the sons and daughters of revolutionary martyrs step by step to bring them up to be the successors to the revolution."


The fact that she is even mentioned at all considering she died a year after the DPRK was founded indicates North Korea's fascination with bloodline. She is glorified because of she was the mother of Kim Jong Il. Plenty of people fought against the Japanese; why does she get such special treatment?

Quote:
So yes your English is better than mine, and you might have been in North Korea (or not). But your understanding isn't because it is blinded by your anticommunism and rabid hatred against North Korea.


It's not anticommunism or hatred against North Korea (btw North Korea recently removed all mention of communism from its constitution and took down the portraits of Lenin and Marx in Pyongyang), it's being objectively critical and realistic. North Korea is a very damaging representative of Marxism worldwide. It does our movement no favours whatsoever.


Dagoth Ur wrote:
Yeah when you come up with anything stronger than this we'll seriously talk about the whole monarchy nonsense (which for a communist should be pretty low on the list of legitimate issues facing the DPRK).


Yeah because who cares that a so-called "people's democracy" is actually under the rule of a defacto absolute monarch?
What a brilliant advert for Marxism worldwide!

Dagoth Ur wrote:
Oh and gRed is apparently refusing to accept that there are such a thing as cultural difference and that the application of "bloodline" is apparently poetic. Much like every other thing the DPRK says. I hear it's a Korean thing from Koreans.


So you're basically just desperately trying to read enough into it to excuse it. Provide evidence saying that their reference to bloodline doesn't actually mean what everyone else thinks of when they see the word bloodline. You're saying it's just "poetic"; OP Bagration is saying it means "traditions". You can't even agree amongst yourselves what it means! You're just clutching at anything so long as it doesn't imply what it actually says: defacto hereditary monarchy!
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Aug 2010, 14:21
Party Bureaucrat
Post 23 Feb 2014, 02:42
Quote:
It's not anticommunism or hatred against North Korea (btw North Korea recently removed all mention of communism from its constitution and took down the portraits of Lenin and Marx in Pyongyang), it's being objectively critical and realistic. North Korea is a very damaging representative of Marxism worldwide. It does our movement no favours whatsoever.

There is a difference between criticism and slander. You can criticize the cult of the great leader without calling it a "monarchy". That's usual bourgeois propaganda actually. Even if you don't like North Korea, you can nonetheless understand its particular history and situation and criticize intelligently. Is it fait criticism to quote stupid interpretations from South Korean medias?

Quote:
The fact that she is even mentioned at all considering she died a year after the DPRK was founded indicates North Korea's fascination with bloodline. She is glorified because of she was the mother of Kim Jong Il. Plenty of people fought against the Japanese; why does she get such special treatment?

The fact that she was Kim Il Sung's wife is probably more important than the fact that she gave birth to Kim Il Sung, who was added to the mythology much later. Moreover she was the teacher at Mangyongdae, a representation of the revolutionary "mother".

Quote:
Again if they were referring to the Mangyongdae revolutionary school they would have said so (they have shown they are quite capable of referring to it in that way)! Also you make no attempt to counter their references to the "commanders of Mt Paektu."

They are speaking about the "commanders of Mt Paektu" because Mt Paektu has a special place in North Korea's culture. As you said yourself, Kim Il Sung wasn't born at Mt Paektu, so it's not Kim Il Sung who gave its importance to Mt Paektu but Mt Paektu who gave his importance to Kim Il Sung, in a philosophical point of view of course. Mt Paekty and Mangyongdae represent a spirit, or revolutionary principles, and not a person, not a bloodline.

You say that they are "quite capable of referring to [Mongyongdae revolutionary school] in that way" but when they say "Mt Paektu" or "Mongyongdae" you understand "Kim Il sung" and "Kim Jong Il". Are they unable to refer to them with their names? You have to make a choice.

Mongyongdae isn't a reference to Kim Jong Il but to the school that was built there by Kim Il Sung to raise the children of those who died for the revolution. The "sons and daughters of Mangyongdae and Mt. Paektu" are not Kim Jong Il and Kim Jong Un! He's speaking about the sons and daughters of the martyrs!

Our people and service personnel will never forget the legendary tales of the affection and benevolence the fatherly leader bestowed on the sons and daughters of revolutionary martyrs from the days when he had the children, who had been wandering about with nobody to support them, located one by one with much effort and provided them with the shelter of a revolutionary school to the last days of his great career.

Kim Jong Suk, the anti-Japanese heroine, was the benevolent mother of the students of the revolutionary school and a great teacher; she took maternal care of them in their living and led the sons and daughters of revolutionary martyrs step by step to bring them up to be the successors to the revolution. The bronze statue of Generalissimo Kim Il Sung at Mangyongdae Revolutionary School built for the first time in our country and the uniform of the school are associated with the indescribable pains she took to bring up its students to be the pillars of the revolution, who cherished loyalty to the leader as their life and soul.


Althoug Kim uses the word "bloodline/lineage", he states clearly that "man’s blood may be inherited, but not his ideology." So it's clear that you can't interpret the word "bloodline" as an actual bloodline. The words bloodline and lineage are used to underline the idea of succession. But there in this speech, it's not the succession of Kim Jong Un, but the succession of those students who have to "be the successors to the revolution."

In Kim's speech the words "lineage" and "lifeline" are also used as an equivalent of "bloodline". There is probably no reference to "blood" in the actual Korean word. In French too we don't have a specific equivalent of "bloodline", why would the Koreans do?

So basically bloodline is a poetic word used to explain that those students should continue the traditions of those who died during the revolution (Mangyongdae) and of the commanders of Mt Paektu.

Now we understand clearly the meaning of the formula: "The revolutionary traditions of Mt. Paektu serve as an everlasting bloodline giving steady continuity to the Korean revolution and eternal treasure of Songun Korea." Those students, by learning the traditions, continuing the traditions, CONTINUE A BLOODLINE, they are PART OF THIS BLOODLINE although they are not from Kim Il Sung's actual bloodline.

Those anticommunist bastards have seen the word "bloodline" in English and decided to use it to "prove" that the bloodline of the Kim family became an official concept in North Korea while it is PRECISELY THE CONTRARY.
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"Fishing is part of agriculture" Gred
"Loz, you are like me" Yami
"I am one of the better read Marxists on this site" Gred
Soviet cogitations: 1128
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 30 Aug 2008, 18:12
Party Member
Post 23 Feb 2014, 18:23
Quote:
There is a difference between criticism and slander. You can criticize the cult of the great leader without calling it a "monarchy". That's usual bourgeois propaganda actually. Even if you don't like North Korea, you can nonetheless understand its particular history and situation and criticize intelligently.


I'll criticse it how I like. If I think it represents a monarchy then I'll say so. I've already said that North Korea does absolutely no favours to the image of Marxism worldwide. As to the particular history of North Korea, yes I understand the importance places on the hereditary descent of rulers (stems from its Confucian history).

Quote:
Even if you don't like North Korea, you can nonetheless understand its particular history and situation and criticize intelligently. Is it fait criticism to quote stupid interpretations from South Korean medias?


Where have I quoted South Korean media? All I've quoted is KCNA reports.

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They are speaking about the "commanders of Mt Paektu" because Mt Paektu has a special place in North Korea's culture. As you said yourself, Kim Il Sung wasn't born at Mt Paektu, so it's not Kim Il Sung who gave its importance to Mt Paektu but Mt Paektu who gave his importance to Kim Il Sung, in a philosophical point of view of course. Mt Paekty and Mangyongdae represent a spirit, or revolutionary principles, and not a person, not a bloodline.


Yes Mount Paektu is historically a holy mountain for all Koreans (hence the North Koreans say Kim Jong Il was born there - although I've heard the Soviet archives disprove this), but why mention Mangyongdae? It's just a village near Pyongyang. The only significance it has is because it is where Kim Il Sung was born. Thus the link between both places is simply due to their being the birthplaces if Kim Jong Il and Kim Il Sung. Therefore it is quite easy to see that by referencing the two in this manner is referring to these two people.

Quote:
You say that they are "quite capable of referring to [Mongyongdae revolutionary school] in that way" but when they say "Mt Paektu" or "Mongyongdae" you understand "Kim Il sung" and "Kim Jong Il". Are they unable to refer to them with their names? You have to make a choice.


If we are going to refer to them literally then we are to refer to them as a small village and an inactive volcano on the Chinese border. Does that make sense in the context they are mentioned? No.

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Mongyongdae isn't a reference to Kim Jong Il but to the school that was built there by Kim Il Sung to raise the children of those who died for the revolution. The "sons and daughters of Mangyongdae and Mt. Paektu" are not Kim Jong Il and Kim Jong Un! He's speaking about the sons and daughters of the martyrs!


Mangyongdae is a village, a school, a children's palace, a funfair and probably many other things. Yet you assume that when they simply say "Mangyongdae" they are referring to the school. The origin of naming things after Mangyongdae is because it was where Kim Il Sung was born. Therefore when they say "Mangyongdae" on its own it is safe to say they are referring to the village, or rather Kim Il Sung since the village on its own doesn't contribute anything.

A party can defend its revolutionary character as the party of the leader and fulfill its mission before history only when it firmly ensures the unity and cohesion centered on one idea and leadership. This is an iron truth proven by nearly seven decade-long history of the WPK, they stressed, adding it is the tradition of Mangyongdae and Mt. Paektu that can never change no matter how much water may flow under the bridge and how many generations are replaced by the others.

KCNA, 20th December 2013 (Meetings Adopt Letters of Loyalty for Kim Jong Un)

Notice how there is no reference here to Mangyongdae Revolutionary School. Mangyongdae is also referenced in the same context as Mt Paektu and there is no Mt Paektu school which I am aware of, therefore they cannot be talking about schools. They can't be talking about these objects literally because otherwise they would be stressing the traditions of a small village and a volcano (which obviously cannot carry traditions). Thus the only conclusion we can draw is that these are referring to Kim Il Sung and Kim Jong Il.

Quote:
Althoug Kim uses the word "bloodline/lineage", he states clearly that "man’s blood may be inherited, but not his ideology." So it's clear that you can't interpret the word "bloodline" as an actual bloodline. The words bloodline and lineage are used to underline the idea of succession. But there in this speech, it's not the succession of Kim Jong Un, but the succession of those students who have to "be the successors to the revolution."


I counter this with a quote from KCNA on the topic of Park Geun Hye (daughter of Park Chung Hee) becoming president.

One cannot tell a lie about blood vein and bloodline, therefore, can never change. With no veil of "change" and "revamping" can Park Geun Hye ever cover up her inveterate nature bequeathed to her by her father.

KCNA, April 5th 2012 (KCNA Commentary Terms Revival of "Yusin" Dictatorship Perfidy to History)

This shows that they do believe ideology is inherited through bloodline. They say that Park Geun Hye's nature has been bequeathed to her from her father via their bloodline.

Quote:
Althoug Kim uses the word "bloodline/lineage", he states clearly that "man’s blood may be inherited, but not his ideology." So it's clear that you can't interpret the word "bloodline" as an actual bloodline. The words bloodline and lineage are used to underline the idea of succession. But there in this speech, it's not the succession of Kim Jong Un, but the succession of those students who have to "be the successors to the revolution."

In Kim's speech the words "lineage" and "lifeline" are also used as an equivalent of "bloodline". There is probably no reference to "blood" in the actual Korean word. In French too we don't have a specific equivalent of "bloodline", why would the Koreans do?


And yet my above quote about Park Geun Hye shows use of the words "blood", "vein" and "bloodline" in the same context and sentence. Plus you cannot say the Koreans don't mean what they say. We can only go by what the official Korean translators have said (and I'm assuming their Korean is a lot better than ours), and if they have chosen to use the word bloodline then we can only assume that this is what they meant. As I've said before, bloodline has a very specific meaning in English (it is not a "poetic" word used to denote traditions), therefore if the Korean-English translators wanted to convey a different meaning, they would have used a different word.

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So basically bloodline is a poetic word used to explain that those students should continue the traditions of those who died during the revolution (Mangyongdae) and of the commanders of Mt Paektu.


So now you're saying it's poetic in order that you agree with Dagoth


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Those anticommunist bastards have seen the word "bloodline" in English and decided to use it to "prove" that the bloodline of the Kim family became an official concept in North Korea while it is PRECISELY THE CONTRARY.


If this is such a poetic use of the word, how come it has only started cropping up recently in North Korean propaganda? (i.e. since Kim Jong Un began being groomed for succession?)
Let's look at the facts:
Mangyongdae on its own refers to Kim Il Sung (unless they are specifically talking about the village).
Mt Paektu on its own refers to Kim Jong Il (unless they are specifically talking about the mountain).
Since Kim Jong Un has come to power the propaganda has started to mention the word "bloodline" in English translations.
"Bloodline" is a very specific word in English. If the translators didn't people to assume its connotations, they wouldn't have used this word.
Therefore the reference to the bloodline of Mangyongdae and Mt Paektu is pretty self-explanatory!

Do you honestly think that the hereditary succession in North Korea has happened purely by chance?
Soviet cogitations: 108
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 14 Feb 2014, 12:33
Pioneer
Post 23 Feb 2014, 18:44
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I'll criticse it how I like. If I think it represents a monarchy then I'll say so. I've already said that North Korea does absolutely no favours to the image of Marxism worldwide. As to the particular history of North Korea, yes I understand the importance places on the hereditary descent of rulers (stems from its Confucian history).

Its not hereditary because of Confucian traditions, then Chinese Communist Party rule would be hereditary, and so would South Korea. Its hereditary because the Kim family has complete control over everything.
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Do you honestly think that the hereditary succession in North Korea has happened purely by chance?

Honestly, its not difficult to understand why most communist parties are small and insignificant, it has become a movement which sees what it wants and defends crimes against humanity...

At last, North Korea is hereditary, comparing it to the United States and South Korea are false analogies, why? Because George Bush senior, Bill Clinton and then George W. Bush, and they were elected. Same goes with South Korea, there were leaders in between. At last, North Korea has been ruled by only one family, and the leaders are not elected, as the Great Leader theory makes it very clear that the party organization is under the control of the Great Leader, not that the party holds the Great Leader accountable... Accountability does not exist in North Korea, there is no party, there is a bureaucracy which simply follows orders. Saying otherwise is idealistic, stupid, ignorant and at last, proof that the editor does not know crap about Korea.
Soviet cogitations: 1128
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 30 Aug 2008, 18:12
Party Member
Post 23 Feb 2014, 18:48
Quote:
Its not hereditary because of Confucian traditions, then Chinese Communist Party rule would be hereditary, and so would South Korea. Its hereditary because the Kim family has complete control over everything.


North Korea has seemingly reverted back to embrace much of its Confucian heritage far more than other historically Confucian countries (including South Korea). This is part of their rampant nationalism as well as adhering to a system which played to the traditions of Korean society. Countries like South Korea and China are much less Confucian as capitalism has inevitably resulted in an erosion of these old ideals (and China was much less Confucian than Korea even before 1911).
Soviet cogitations: 108
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 14 Feb 2014, 12:33
Pioneer
Post 23 Feb 2014, 18:59
North Korea is akeen to Taiwan, Iraq (the son was Saddam's chosen successor), Romania (were Ceaușescu had appointed his son as successor), and present-day Syria... Remember, the emphasize on Confucianism came under Kim Jong-il, not under Kim Il-sung... You don't have to be a genius to see that when dictators stop being held accountable, the choice of successor doesn't have anything to do about culture, but rather, who can I trust and who will continue with my work. The last was probably the rationale of Kim Il-sung, having seen both Stalin's and Mao's denunciations by his successor - he didn't want the same to happen to him.
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