Soviet-Empire.com U.S.S.R. and communism historical discussion.
[ Active ]
[ Login ]
Log-in to remove these advertisements.

North Korean war crimes

POST REPLY
Soviet cogitations: 1128
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 30 Aug 2008, 18:12
Party Member
Post 23 Feb 2014, 19:46
Yes but even unaccountable dictators have to dress up their decisions in some sort of rationale. Playing to traditional Confucian attitudes was always going to be an easy card to play.
User avatar
Soviet cogitations: 2293
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Aug 2010, 14:21
Party Bureaucrat
Post 23 Feb 2014, 20:32
Quote:
I'll criticse it how I like.

No you won't criticize it how you like, do that on your own forum if you want but this is a discussion board, not a place for slanders. I don't believe you actually think that North Korea is a monarchy, you are only doing that because you hate North Korea. But I was saying that especially since you came there to support leftguy who took sources from South Korea. So I assume that you are endorsing his positions.

Quote:
but why mention Mangyongdae? It's just a village near Pyongyang.

As I said Mangyongdae is the place where the revolutionary school was built. Nowadays it's a district of Pyongyang.

Quote:
g. The only significance it has is because it is where Kim Il Sung was born.

No, it's also the location of the revolutionary school.

Quote:
Yet you assume that when they simply say "Mangyongdae" they are referring to the school.

They are refering to a place that is indeed the birthplace of Kim Il Sung, but also the revolutionary school. Since this speech is made at the revolutionary school, it's obvious that they are talking about the school. But there is no contradiction with the fact that the notion of Mangyongdae can contain more than that since it's the birthplace of Kim Il Sung. That's why I said: "Mt Paektu and Mangyongdae represent a spirit". I insisted on the word spirit. I wasn't trying to discuss your idea that if they wanted to use "revolutionary school of Mangyongdae" instead "Mangyongdae" they would have done so. It might be true, but we can't be sure. For example when we Frenchmen talk about the French military school Sain- Cyr, we can call it "Military school of Saint-Cyr" but we usually say "Saint-Cyr".

The problem is that you don't understand why they are also talking about the traditions of Mt. Paektu even thought it's just a mountain. But it's not. In the Korean ideology, Mt Paektu is the place where Kim Il Sung organized the resistance to the Japanese invaders, so there is indeed a "tradition" of Mt Paektu. Moreover, according to Jong Un in his speech, Kim Il Sung came directly from Paektu to Mangyongdae to build his school, so there is a clear continuation between the two "traditions".

Anyway, that's not relevant as long as we agree that they are not talking about Kim Jong Un and Kim Il Sung and their family bloodline, but about revolutionary activities, which is quite obvious in this speech.

Quote:
I counter this with a quote from KCNA on the topic of Park Geun Hye (daughter of Park Chung Hee) becoming president.

One cannot tell a lie about blood vein and bloodline, therefore, can never change. With no veil of "change" and "revamping" can Park Geun Hye ever cover up her inveterate nature bequeathed to her by her father.

KCNA, April 5th 2012 (KCNA Commentary Terms Revival of "Yusin" Dictatorship Perfidy to History)

This shows that they do believe ideology is inherited through bloodline. They say that Park Geun Hye's nature has been bequeathed to her from her father via their bloodline.

This is ambiguous but if they really mean it you should write to KCNA and ask why they disagree with Kim Jong Un. The author of this might be sent to a camp for reeducation.

Actually I will ask them directly, we will see what they answer.


Quote:
And yet my above quote about Park Geun Hye shows use of the words "blood", "vein" and "bloodline" in the same context and sentence. Plus you cannot say the Koreans don't mean what they say. We can only go by what the official Korean translators have said (and I'm assuming their Korean is a lot better than ours), and if they have chosen to use the word bloodline then we can only assume that this is what they meant. As I've said before, bloodline has a very specific meaning in English (it is not a "poetic" word used to denote traditions), therefore if the Korean-English translators wanted to convey a different meaning, they would have used a different word

Their Korean is better of course, but their understanding of English can't be perfect especially since we have a totally different culture and language, unlike French and English. But your quote is about a totally different matter since it focuses on a relation between a father and his child, while in Kim Jong Un's speech and KCNA's summary, it's about the relation between a revolutionary spirit and the successors of this spirit.

Quote:
So now you're saying it's poetic in order that you agree with Dagoth

I used the word metaphorical previously, so "poetic" also corresponds to this idea. I wanted to stress that there is no contradiction between what Dagoth said and what I said.

Quote:
Therefore the reference to the bloodline of Mangyongdae and Mt Paektu is pretty self-explanatory!

I clearly proved that Kim Jong Un is speaking about the "bloodline" of Mangyongdae even though there is no ablood relation between the first students of Mongyongdae and Kim Il Sung. Yet he is described as their spiritual father, and those new students who have no blood relation with the first students also continue this "bloodline". So obviously it's not self-explanatory, it's only your ideological bias that tends to self-explain everything. That's a problem.

Quote:
Do you honestly think that the hereditary succession in North Korea has happened purely by chance?

It happened for political reasons, it's a pity, but we can't conclude that something like that will continue after Kim Jong Un.
Image

"Fishing is part of agriculture" Gred
"Loz, you are like me" Yami
"I am one of the better read Marxists on this site" Gred
Soviet cogitations: 108
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 14 Feb 2014, 12:33
Pioneer
Post 23 Feb 2014, 22:35
Quote:
It happened for political reasons, it's a pity, but we can't conclude that something like that will continue after Kim Jong Un.

And those political reasons where?
Soviet cogitations: 1128
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 30 Aug 2008, 18:12
Party Member
Post 23 Feb 2014, 22:55
Quote:
No you won't criticize it how you like, do that on your own forum if you want but this is a discussion board, not a place for slanders. I don't believe you actually think that North Korea is a monarchy, you are only doing that because you hate North Korea. But I was saying that especially since you came there to support leftguy who took sources from South Korea. So I assume that you are endorsing his positions.


Since when did you become a mod? I haven't violated the forum rules, it is perfectly possible for me to criticise the North Korean government on this forum by calling it a monarchy. I don't care about "slander". Also I don't hate North Korea, I just don't see it as a viable example of a Marxist society. Finally I never said I joined this thread in order to support anyone. I joined it because I can.

Quote:
As I said Mangyongdae is the place where the revolutionary school was built. Nowadays it's a district of Pyongyang.


They named the school after the place it was built, just like the did with the children's palace and the funfair. They did this because they wanted these things to be associated with the place where Kim Il Sung was born.

Quote:
They are refering to a place that is indeed the birthplace of Kim Il Sung, but also the revolutionary school. Since this speech is made at the revolutionary school, it's obvious that they are talking about the school. But there is no contradiction with the fact that the notion of Mangyongdae can contain more than that since it's the birthplace of Kim Il Sung. That's why I said: "Mt Paektu and Mangyongdae represent a spirit". I insisted on the word spirit.


So it's just a huge coincidence that these two "spirits" happen to stem from the birthplaces of Kim Il Sung and Kim Jong Il?

Quote:
For example when we Frenchmen talk about the French military school Sain- Cyr, we can call it "Military school of Saint-Cyr" but we usually say "Saint-Cyr".


I don't know much about that but it sounds like they say Saint-Cyr because there isn't much it can be confused with. With Mangyongdae I've already pointed out that there are loads of things named after it.

Quote:
The problem is that you don't understand why they are also talking about the traditions of Mt. Paektu even thought it's just a mountain. But it's not. In the Korean ideology, Mt Paektu is the place where Kim Il Sung organized the resistance to the Japanese invaders, so there is indeed a "tradition" of Mt Paektu. Moreover, according to Jong Un in his speech, Kim Il Sung came directly from Paektu to Mangyongdae to build his school, so there is a clear continuation between the two "traditions".


First you say it is a spirit, now you say it is a tradition. You can't make your own mind up! You are just trying to read anything into it so long as it is not hereditary monarchy.

Quote:
This is ambiguous but if they really mean it you should write to KCNA and ask why they disagree with Kim Jong Un. The author of this might be sent to a camp for reeducation.

Actually I will ask them directly, we will see what they answer.


It would be interesting to hear but I doubt you will get an answer.

Quote:
Their Korean is better of course, but their understanding of English can't be perfect especially since we have a totally different culture and language, unlike French and English. But your quote is about a totally different matter since it focuses on a relation between a father and his child, while in Kim Jong Un's speech and KCNA's summary, it's about the relation between a revolutionary spirit and the successors of this spirit.


Well since they are presumably employed as official translators for the regime I assume they have to be of a pretty high standard. And my quote is talking about bloodline and how it shows the North Koreans do stress that ideology is passed down from parent to sibling. Since the North Korean propaganda uses bloodline in other articles I can only assume it refers to a similar meaning as the one stressed in this article.

Quote:
I used the word metaphorical previously, so "poetic" also corresponds to this idea. I wanted to stress that there is no contradiction between what Dagoth said and what I said.


But this assumption that the word is used metaphorically is only based on your own opinion. If I see the word bloodline, I assume they mean bloodline. Why would I think they are using a metaphor? Based on your logic, how do I know that when you use the word "metaphor", you aren't actually using it as a metaphor for something else!?

Quote:
I clearly proved that Kim Jong Un is speaking about the "bloodline" of Mangyongdae even though there is no ablood relation between the first students of Mongyongdae and Kim Il Sung. Yet he is described as their spiritual father, and those new students who have no blood relation with the first students also continue this "bloodline". So obviously it's not self-explanatory, it's only your ideological bias that tends to self-explain everything. That's a problem.


But you have no proof they are talking about the school! I have shown in other articles (such as the one I quoted: Meetings Adopt Letters of Loyalty for Kim Jong Un) that Mangyongdae is used without any reference to the school (or theme park, or children's palace etc.) One can only assume from this that they are talking about Kim Il Sung because to refer to the village itself would be pointless. When they have referred to the school they specifically mention it as Mangyongdae Revolutionary School.

Quote:
It happened for political reasons, it's a pity, but we can't conclude that something like that will continue after Kim Jong Un.


And it is a worrying trend. Plus you have to agree that it is not a good advert for a so-called "people's democracy". Anyway, I'm bored of picking apart the semantics of KCNA propaganda.
User avatar
Soviet cogitations: 2293
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Aug 2010, 14:21
Party Bureaucrat
Post 23 Feb 2014, 23:41
Quote:
Since when did you become a mod? I haven't violated the forum rules, it is perfectly possible for me to criticise the North Korean government on this forum by calling it a monarchy. I don't care about "slander". Also I don't hate North Korea, I just don't see it as a viable example of a Marxist society. Finally I never said I joined this thread in order to support anyone.

Yes it's possible, you are allowed to do that. But if you want to do "what you like", then I will also do what I like.


Quote:
They named the school after the place it was built, just like the did with the children's palace and the funfair. They did this because they wanted these things to be associated with the place where Kim Il Sung was born.

No, this school was built in Mangyongdae. The school is called like that because it was built in Mangyongdae, this isn't subject to discussion. So the rest of your argumentation is wrong. Kim Jong Un is making a speech in Mangyongdae in the revolutionary school of Mangyongdae, you can't confuse it with anything else. It's like if the mayor of Bordeaux was making a speech in the town hall of Bordeaux and that you said: maybe he is speaking about the wine!

Quote:
So it's just a huge coincidence that these two "spirits" happen to stem from the birthplaces of Kim Il Sung and Kim Jong Il?

No, there is no coincidence. Kim Jong Il was born where his father was organizing the resistance against Japan. Quite natural. Kim Il Sung was born in Mangyongdae, so when he returned to Pyongyang he went to Mangyongdae and created his revolutionary school there. Do you really think that he created a revolutionary school at his own birthplace just to organize the cult of his own birth?


Quote:
First you say it is a spirit, now you say it is a tradition. You can't make your own mind up! You are just trying to read anything into it so long as it is not hereditary monarchy.

I wasn't taking the word "spirit" as an entity but rather using this meaning :

The loyalty and feeling of inclusion in the social history or collective essence of an institution or group, such as in school spirit or esprit de corps.
A closely related meaning refers to the worldview of a person, place, or time, as in "The Declaration of Independence was written in the spirit of John Locke and his notions of liberty", or the term zeitgeist, meaning "spirit of the age".
(Wikipedia)

Thus there is no contradiction between spirit and tradition. What's the difference between "revolutionary spirit" and "revolutionary tradition"? Poetry?

Quote:
But you have no proof they are talking about the school!

I don't see how this is relevant. The school was created by Kim Il Sung, so anyway this is the same. If you talk about the school you talk about Kim Il Sung. But you also talk about his wife. If you talk about the town you talk about Kim Il Sung's birthplace and about the school. I think this was problematic because you thought that the school wasn't in Mangyongdae, but now that you agree that the school is in Mangyongdae, you also agree that this isn't relevant. Mangyongdae in general can be understood as the tradition or revolutionary spirit that was left by Kim Il Sung to the Korean people.
Image

"Fishing is part of agriculture" Gred
"Loz, you are like me" Yami
"I am one of the better read Marxists on this site" Gred
Soviet cogitations: 1128
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 30 Aug 2008, 18:12
Party Member
Post 24 Feb 2014, 00:22
Quote:
Yes it's possible, you are allowed to do that. But if you want to do "what you like", then I will also do what I like.


I never said you couldn't


Quote:
No, this school was built in Mangyongdae. The school is called like that because it was built in Mangyongdae, this isn't subject to discussion. So the rest of your argumentation is wrong. Kim Jong Un is making a speech in Mangyongdae in the revolutionary school of Mangyongdae, you can't confuse it with anything else. It's like if the mayor of Bordeaux was making a speech in the town hall of Bordeaux and that you said: maybe he is speaking about the wine!


But they built it there because of it is where Kim Il Sung was born. They could have built it anywhere but they chose a small village outside Pyongyang...

As for the rest I've already shown how KCNA refers to Mangyongdae without referring to the school. What are they referring to there?

Quote:
Do you really think that he created a revolutionary school at his own birthplace just to organize the cult of his own birth?


Yes! His birthplace is considered to be very important so it's an apt place to put one of the top schools in North Korea.

Quote:
I wasn't taking the word "spirit" as an entity but rather using this meaning :

The loyalty and feeling of inclusion in the social history or collective essence of an institution or group, such as in school spirit or esprit de corps.
A closely related meaning refers to the worldview of a person, place, or time, as in "The Declaration of Independence was written in the spirit of John Locke and his notions of liberty", or the term zeitgeist, meaning "spirit of the age".
(Wikipedia)

Thus there is no contradiction between spirit and tradition. What's the difference between "revolutionary spirit" and "revolutionary tradition"? Poetry?


You're just digging yourself into a deeper and deeper hole. They have repeatedly used the word "bloodline" and yet, while any speaker of English would instantly know what this refers to, you start seeing "spirit", "tradition", "poetry" and other metaphors! Are there any other words in these articles for which you substitute their meaning? How do I know that when you see the word "revolution" you don't see it as a metaphor for the word "chocolate"?

Quote:
I don't see how this is relevant. The school was created by Kim Il Sung, so anyway this is the same. If you talk about the school you talk about Kim Il Sung. But you also talk about his wife. If you talk about the town you talk about Kim Il Sung's birthplace and about the school. I think this was problematic because you thought that the school wasn't in Mangyongdae, but now that you agree that the school is in Mangyongdae, you also agree that this isn't relevant. Mangyongdae in general can be understood as the tradition or revolutionary spirit that was left by Kim Il Sung to the Korean people.


I knew it was in Mangyongdae and I agree with the last part that Mangyongdae refers to Kim Il Sung and his ideology. However when it specifically mentioned the bloodline of Mangyongdae and the bloodline of Mt Paektu (references to Kim Il Sung and Kim Jong Il respectively) one cannot say that it is not referring to actual hereditary descent, especially considering all the North Korean leaders have descended from one another.
User avatar
Soviet cogitations: 2293
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Aug 2010, 14:21
Party Bureaucrat
Post 24 Feb 2014, 01:11
Quote:
I never said you couldn't

No, but you complained.

Quote:
But they built it there because of it is where Kim Il Sung was born.

Maybe, or maybe not. This village was close to Pyongyang, most universities are built outside of the cities. He could have decided to put the school there because he knew the town.

Quote:
Yes! His birthplace is considered to be very important so it's an apt place to put one of the top schools in North Korea.

We would need to be sure of the date for that. If that was in the 1940's I think it's unlikely.

Quote:
You're just digging yourself into a deeper and deeper hole. They have repeatedly used the word "bloodline" and yet, while any speaker of English would instantly know what this refers to, you start seeing "spirit", "tradition", "poetry" and other metaphors! Are there any other words in these articles for which you substitute their meaning? How do I know that when you see the word "revolution" you don't see it as a metaphor for the word "chocolate"?

As I said already the word lineage is also used instead of bloodline and actually in Kim Jong Un's speech it is used much more than "bloodline". So what is a lineage if it isn't a tradition? When we speak about "Lenin's lineage", what are we speaking about? Facts are there, clear, evident, and you keep denying them.



Quote:
However when it specifically mentioned the bloodline of Mangyongdae and the bloodline of Mt Paektu

= Lineage of Mangyongdae, the Lineage of Paektu. Paektu is a reference to the whole family and the revolutionary activites of Kim Il Sung and his wife, and not a reference to Kim Jong Il. There is 3 commanders of Mt Paektu, not one. On KCNA "Lineage of Mangyondae, lineage of Paektu" is used much more than "bloodline of Mangyongdae...".

Quote:
one cannot say that it is not referring to actual hereditary descent, especially considering all the North Korean leaders have descended from one another.

No we can. You are the only one seeing the birthplace as predominant (with the South Korean propagandists), and this is especially ridiculous when we are analyzing a speech in which the birth of Kim Il Sung is mentioned nowhere while his revolutionary and educational activities in Mangyongdae AND Mt Paektu are specifically mentioned. Mangyongdae is Kim Il Sung's birthplace above all, but Mt Paektu is much more than Kim Jong Il's birthplace. It's a reference to the family members, Kim 1 & 2 and Mother Kim and their struggle, and also to the activity of the party at Mt Paektu and Mangyondae (because of course, when a whole generation has been educated at the same place, you can't say that it's just the birthplace of Kim 1). It's all of that at the same time. We can't forget also that Mother Kim had an important revolutionary activity at Mangyongdae. But the word bloodline/lineage doesn't necessarily imply an actual bloodline. I think, and Kim Jong Un's speech looks clear about that, that any Korean is part of this "bloodline/lineage" as long as he defends the revolutionary spirit of Mangyongdae and Mt Paektu.
Last edited by OP-Bagration on 24 Feb 2014, 02:10, edited 3 times in total.
Image

"Fishing is part of agriculture" Gred
"Loz, you are like me" Yami
"I am one of the better read Marxists on this site" Gred
Soviet cogitations: 12389
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 18 Apr 2010, 04:44
Ideology: None
Philosophized
Post 24 Feb 2014, 01:57
I think we should all take a step back for a moment, and let it sink in that a thread concerning one of the world's last "Communist" nations has degenerated into a discussion concerning "blood lines" and a "sacred mountain". Seriously, what fragging century are we in here? And what kind of "Communist" country even gives rise to such discussions?
Miss Strangelove: "You feed giants laxatives so goblins can mine their poop before the gnomes get to it."
User avatar
Soviet cogitations: 2293
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Aug 2010, 14:21
Party Bureaucrat
Post 24 Feb 2014, 01:59
Well, this is Best Korea. Ridiculous, but still...
Image

"Fishing is part of agriculture" Gred
"Loz, you are like me" Yami
"I am one of the better read Marxists on this site" Gred
[+-]
User avatar
Soviet cogitations: 9187
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 19 Mar 2005, 20:08
Embalmed
Post 24 Feb 2014, 03:34
It should be noted that Mt. Paektu carries special significance in Korean culture as a whole, not just DPRK ideological mythology, as it is considered the birthplace of the Korean people as a whole (think Mt. Fuji for the Japanese in terms of importance). That's why Kim Jong Il, who was most likely born in the USSR, is said to have been born there by DPRK sources, as this allows him to be portrayed as the ultimate Korean or something. Because of this, evoking imagery of Mt. Paektu is generally done in a nationalist manner, and in this case probably represents the Korean people, not just Kim Jong Il, as awesome and manly he could have been.
Image

"Bleh, i don't even know what i'm arguing for. What a stupid rant. Disregard what i wrote." - Loz
"Every time is gyros time" - Stalinista
[+-]
Soviet cogitations: 589
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 07 Dec 2013, 14:24
Ideology: Democratic Socialism
Unperson
Post 24 Feb 2014, 10:31
What century are we in? Well, when it comes to North Korea, going by their farming methods and their feudal outlook I’d say roughly the 17th century.

If this is the best Korea then I would hate to see what goes on in the South. If it’s worse in the South maybe that explains why the defectors don’t come back. As one the cross into the South they are not allowed to leave!

North Korea is a huge prison camp, which would not be so bad as you get 3 meals a day in prison. Except you are lucky to be fed one meal a day in prisons. But even on the outside you get, at best 2 meals a day.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_righ ... orth_Korea

But on a serious note, try reading this without welling up.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-17767626

One day you have to hope he will be united with his family, what a cruel ideology that separates families.
User avatar
Soviet cogitations: 2293
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Aug 2010, 14:21
Party Bureaucrat
Post 24 Feb 2014, 13:25
A few years ago a priest was sentenced to 5 years in prison because he went to the North to promote peace. In 2001 Dongguk University suspended Kang Jeong Koo: "The school likely determined that Kang's comments that the Korean War was a "war of reunification" and that division of the Korean peninsula and war was forced on Korea by the United States damaged the school's reputation."
Image

"Fishing is part of agriculture" Gred
"Loz, you are like me" Yami
"I am one of the better read Marxists on this site" Gred
Soviet cogitations: 1128
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 30 Aug 2008, 18:12
Party Member
Post 24 Feb 2014, 20:23
Quote:
No, but you complained.


No I didn't. You started going on trying to say what I can and cannot say on this forum (typical of you who cannot tolerate the slightest differences of opinion). I merely pointed out I can say whatever I like so long as it does not violate the forum rules.

Quote:
Maybe, or maybe not. This village was close to Pyongyang, most universities are built outside of the cities. He could have decided to put the school there because he knew the town.


So we're back in coincidence land


Of all the places he chose to build the most important revolutionary school in the the DPRK, he had just happened to choose his home village. Why would he put it there because he knew the town? It's not like he was spending all his time lecturing there!

Quote:
As I said already the word lineage is also used instead of bloodline and actually in Kim Jong Un's speech it is used much more than "bloodline".


I notice that you only quote Kim Jong Un's speech. I've provided KCNA articles which talk about bloodline without mentioning the school or any speeches at the school yet you never even try to counter those. You are stuck on one (inconclusive) speech from Kim Jong Un.

KCNA, April 5th 2012 (KCNA Commentary Terms Revival of "Yusin" Dictatorship Perfidy to History)

The centenary of the birth of Kim Il Sung is a major, important occasion for displaying the might of Korea, which is advancing bravely towards the world standards, and a grand revolutionary festival, which will demonstrate the steadfast continuity of the revolution in Korea, which stoutly carries forward one ideology and one bloodline.

KCNA, January 1 2012 (DPRK Leading Newspapers Publish Joint New Year Editorial)

No mention of a school here. Any reference to your supposed traditions are encapsulated in the reference to "one ideology."

Quote:
When we speak about "Lenin's lineage", what are we speaking about? Facts are there, clear, evident, and you keep denying them.


Different person, different language, different time, different culture, different word.

Quote:
= Lineage of Mangyongdae, the Lineage of Paektu. Paektu is a reference to the whole family and the revolutionary activites of Kim Il Sung and his wife, and not a reference to Kim Jong Il. There is 3 commanders of Mt Paektu, not one. On KCNA "Lineage of Mangyondae, lineage of Paektu" is used much more than "bloodline of Mangyongdae...".


Links to these articles?

Any anyway, I said that bloodline is only a recently added word in KCNA propaganda. Why so?

And yet despite all this arguing over the semantics of KCNA, you acknowledge the DPRK is a defacto hereditary successor state!

Quote:
It happened for political reasons, it's a pity, but we can't conclude that something like that will continue after Kim Jong Un.


No we can't predict what will happen after Kim Jong Un but then we can't predict what might happen with future kings and queens of any official hereditary monarchies. How do we know for sure what will happen once the Queen of England or the King of Bhutan dies? We can guess but that doesn't mean it will happen for sure. The fact that all North Korean leaders have so far been direct father-son successors (they even have cults around Kim Il Sung's parents and grandparents!) and the recent addition of the word "bloodline" to their propaganda lexicon implies that this is very much a defacto hereditary monarchy. So while we can't be sure what will happen after Jong Un, there is a fairly good chance it will be a future son of his who takes over.




Comrade Gulper wrote:
I think we should all take a step back for a moment, and let it sink in that a thread concerning one of the world's last "Communist" nations has degenerated into a discussion concerning "blood lines" and a "sacred mountain". Seriously, what fragging century are we in here? And what kind of "Communist" country even gives rise to such discussions?


Exactly. This is why I criticise North Korea (apart from the horrific treatment of its people): it is a terrible advert for Marxism (not that what I believe is practised there is Marxism). The hereditary leadership (putting the D in DPRK
) just adds insult to injury. Anyway, KCNA is mind-numbingly boring at the best of times. Analysing the language of its articles is even worse. Done with.
Soviet cogitations: 12389
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 18 Apr 2010, 04:44
Ideology: None
Philosophized
Post 24 Feb 2014, 20:35
GredB wrote:
So while we can't be sure what will happen after Jong Un, there is a fairly good chance it will be a future son of his who takes over.

But...suppose Kim #4 is late in coming, or is even rejected as a successor in favor of some other, more capable (but less blood worthy) figure? Can we imagine a sort of Sunni vs. Shia rift developing in Best Korea, where the Kim-fappers face off against the Succession-Disrupters? It might well be the only fitting end to the whole tragedy.
Miss Strangelove: "You feed giants laxatives so goblins can mine their poop before the gnomes get to it."
Soviet cogitations: 304
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 05 Feb 2014, 00:36
Komsomol
Post 24 Feb 2014, 22:05
Comrade Gulper wrote:
But...suppose Kim #4 is late in coming, or is even rejected as a successor in favor of some other, more capable (but less blood worthy) figure? Can we imagine a sort of Sunni vs. Shia rift developing in Best Korea, where the Kim-fappers face off against the Succession-Disrupters? It might well be the only fitting end to the whole tragedy.


As it stands, several NK experts have stated their beliefs that the whole Cult of Personality took off after Kim Il-Sung's death to solidify one power clique backing Kim Jong-Il while others exist. The thing about Best Korea is we don't actually know anything about them, or the power factions (which we know exist as his uncle's recent execution displays). Indeed in the late 1990's scattered reports of unauthorized KPA movements (a possible coup?) came out but again we just don't have enough information to determine this.

Clearly I think this narrative makes sense: the majority of the political elite sees the cult of personality and heavy repression as the only way to keep the country under control, therefore their job is to extend its current existence while upgrading Pyongyang (the elite's home) with more nice stuff while the countryside remains on its barter-based black market system. This means that if they can't get a Kim #4, they'll make one, though Jong-Un's position is far from guaranteed. He's still young and hasn't weathered a major crisis yet, so give him...10 years? 20? Maybe we'll see another coup attempt, this time successful. Again, what the motivations of these other currents are I can't state but who knows what would happen? I think anything short of total collapse will mean there's a need for stability, and a whole part of that culture is the worship of the Great Leader so even if Kim Jurk-Oph gets power (despite being of no actual family relation) he'll keep the cult of personality and totalitarian state measures in place.
Alternative Display:
Mobile view
More Forums: The History Forum. The UK Politics Forum.
© 2000- Soviet-Empire.com. Privacy.