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North Korean war crimes

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Soviet cogitations: 589
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 07 Dec 2013, 14:24
Ideology: Democratic Socialism
Unperson
Post 18 Feb 2014, 11:00
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/uk-wo ... ad-3157044

Trouble is how do the get the chubby faced dictator to court so he can stand trial for his evil crimes?
The list of crimes is truly shocking and assuming they are not revisionist lies(!) you have to wonder, the guards in these camps must have strong stomachs or be scared witless that if they don’t carry out these appalling acts they will be in the firing line. But even then you’d think some of them would say no, I can’t cross that line.
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Soviet cogitations: 2293
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Aug 2010, 14:21
Party Bureaucrat
Post 18 Feb 2014, 11:48
Have they killed millions of persons in extermination camps just because of their religion? No! Those bastards should think long and hard before telling such nonsense.
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"Fishing is part of agriculture" Gred
"Loz, you are like me" Yami
"I am one of the better read Marxists on this site" Gred
[+-]
Soviet cogitations: 589
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 07 Dec 2013, 14:24
Ideology: Democratic Socialism
Unperson
Post 18 Feb 2014, 12:04
Millions of North Koreans have died in famines and no one who cares for his fellow man would treat them in such a way. A ghastly regime ruled by a ghastly elite.
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Soviet cogitations: 2293
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Aug 2010, 14:21
Party Bureaucrat
Post 18 Feb 2014, 13:23
Yes, that's very bad. Bad Koreans, worse than the Jews in Masada. But when will the UN condemn their own crimes in Korea? That's the big question.
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"Fishing is part of agriculture" Gred
"Loz, you are like me" Yami
"I am one of the better read Marxists on this site" Gred
Soviet cogitations: 108
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 14 Feb 2014, 12:33
Pioneer
Post 18 Feb 2014, 13:38
That they died in famine was not on purpose (just bad economics as usual), when they have an estimated 100,000-120,000 people in labour camps/concentration camps, we are talking oppression... Secondly, the UN invasion was as much the US mistake as Stalin's - Stalin, contrary to the Politburo's advice, did not even send a representative to stop the invasion. If he had sent the Soviet Representative to the UN, no invasion, and because of that, Kim Il-sung would probably have been ditched. At last, the Korean War does not act as an excuse to kill you're own people. I mean, seriously, South Korea doesn't have concentration camps, but the North has (and they are in the same war).. And secondly, North Korea has China - there is no chance in hell that the US will invade NK now (unless the Chinese begin using their head and change their position on North Korea).. I hate monarchies.
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Soviet cogitations: 2293
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Aug 2010, 14:21
Party Bureaucrat
Post 19 Feb 2014, 01:08
They are on the same war but not on the same side. How many strategic bombers is there in North Korea? You miss the point totally because China might be a deterrent, but most attacks and invasions are preceded by political maneuvering, games of influence and destabilization (look at Ukraine, a traditional Russian backyard!). There is no concentration camp in South Korea, but they jail those who go in the North to promote peace between the two entities. There had been a dictatorship in South Korea for decades, supported by the US, until the country was safe enough to open itself. But North Korea isn't safe. South Korea profited from the fall of the USSR, North Korea didn't.

It's not surprising to see that you have integrated the idioms of the bourgeoisie when you say that they "kill [their] own people". That's the kind of things that can be heared on CNN about Bachar or the Ukrainian government, that was heared about Gaddafi, that will be heared against Maduro. Class struggle and politics are reduced to a simple relation between a government and its people. As if North Korean leaders were not also part of the people. Of course this is absurd, who would want to kill "his people"? Nero? Caligula? Those who speak like that are suspects, this is the typical approach of the bourgeoisie. A bourgeois can say: "they are killing their people", that's bourgeois ideology. But they can't explain the truth about class and economic relations.
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"Fishing is part of agriculture" Gred
"Loz, you are like me" Yami
"I am one of the better read Marxists on this site" Gred
Soviet cogitations: 304
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 05 Feb 2014, 00:36
Komsomol
Post 19 Feb 2014, 01:33
Yeah, I got one sarcastic reply whenever leftists debate this:

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C'mon people. The country's a shithole anyway you look at it. And not just because of the Western political machine, it's how they proudly present themselves and behave. When coaches claim that the football team lost because they were all struck by lightning... c'mon, guys. C'mon.
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Soviet cogitations: 2293
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Aug 2010, 14:21
Party Bureaucrat
Post 19 Feb 2014, 01:45
South Korea IS a shithole, they don't have Kim, but they have Samsung and the other chaebols. They may have wealth, but they have no independance and no national pride and culture.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZpWz7Os8OJo

Long live best Korea!
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"Fishing is part of agriculture" Gred
"Loz, you are like me" Yami
"I am one of the better read Marxists on this site" Gred
[+-]
Soviet cogitations: 589
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 07 Dec 2013, 14:24
Ideology: Democratic Socialism
Unperson
Post 19 Feb 2014, 12:45
OP-Bagration wrote:
South Korea IS a shithole, they don't have Kim, but they have Samsung and the other chaebols. They may have wealth, but they have no independance and no national pride and culture.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZpWz7Os8OJo

Long live best Korea!


SK maybe a shithole but if NK opened it's gates and allowed free movement between the two, we really would be saying

"Would the last person to leave North Korea please swith the lights off...oh they are already off"
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Soviet cogitations: 2293
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Aug 2010, 14:21
Party Bureaucrat
Post 19 Feb 2014, 12:59
If they allowed that there would be in a few days thousands of companies entering the country, trying to grab their manpower and natural resources.
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"Fishing is part of agriculture" Gred
"Loz, you are like me" Yami
"I am one of the better read Marxists on this site" Gred
[+-]
Soviet cogitations: 589
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 07 Dec 2013, 14:24
Ideology: Democratic Socialism
Unperson
Post 19 Feb 2014, 14:31
OP-Bagration wrote:
If they allowed that there would be in a few days thousands of companies entering the country, trying to grab their manpower and natural resources.


No different to selling their labour power to the state. At least you can bargain with companies. The state is a terrible employer, you do what it says or else!
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Soviet cogitations: 143
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 14 Jun 2013, 09:08
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Pioneer
Post 19 Feb 2014, 16:38
Yami wrote:

No different to selling their labour power to the state. At least you can bargain with companies. The state is a terrible employer, you do what it says or else!


Is that the case , Yami? Employment in Philippines is harsh and with globalization, privatization on the agenda we shall see. The opening up of borders oft prettified by some on the left, is being fought tooth and nail here. Sovereignty is the watchword. Bring on the big guns....not all are as easily impressed, Yami:


http://www.tribune.net.ph/commentary/he ... ndescended
The world is riven by class — not race, gender, age or disability. There is only one human race, and any ideas that promote divisions between us do the work of capitalism.
Soviet cogitations: 1128
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 30 Aug 2008, 18:12
Party Member
Post 19 Feb 2014, 22:56
I wish people would realise that working for the state in a productive industry does not equate with some amazing and benevolent role with no exploitation, especially in a capitalist country. You are still exploited for your surplus labour-time and the state is the one who profits. The state will then use this surplus-value to expand the means of production (which if it invests in modern technology will often mean putting people out of work in the long run).

Quote:
Sovereignty is the watchword. Bring on the big guns....not all are as easily impressed


Sovereignty is a bullshit concept which originated in feudal times. Why do socialists fetishise it? Even in the freest of bourgeois states the vast majority of people have no real sovereignty because they are wage-slaves. The same goes for the North Koreans who equally have no say in how their country is run.

Quote:
If they allowed that there would be in a few days thousands of companies entering the country, trying to grab their manpower and natural resources.


What's the point of a natural resource if it can't be sold? What's the point of labour if it cannot be used?

Quote:
South Korea IS a shithole, they don't have Kim, but they have Samsung and the other chaebols. They may have wealth, but they have no independance and no national pride and culture.


Define independence? North Korea is dependent on UN food handouts and Chinese assistance. South Koreans also have plenty of national pride (though as a socialist I don't know why you think this is a good thing) and culture (how can any group of people not have a culture?). Plus people prefer wealth to metaphysical things such as independence, sovereignty and ideology. You can't eat Juche.
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Soviet cogitations: 2293
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Aug 2010, 14:21
Party Bureaucrat
Post 20 Feb 2014, 01:03
It can be sold. But you can also make missiles with those resources ! Have you not seen the news ? North Korea is thought to have 2/3 of world rare earths reseves! I can't tell all the implications. DPRK could be threatened more than it is today, or it could become a much better place to live.

You can't eat Juche, that's true. I don't like Juche that much. But when you go through such a horrible war, I can understand that Juche became the Korean equivalent of "la liberté ou la mort". Independance as a sovereign country who isn't a colony, who can use its missiles to scare imperialsts and obtain food. DPRK has proven that it can live in autarcy and total independance. I don't like all the implications, but I admire that.

About culture it's well-known that Korean language and traditions have been much more preserved in the North. Korean in the north is slightly different and regarded as more pure.
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"Fishing is part of agriculture" Gred
"Loz, you are like me" Yami
"I am one of the better read Marxists on this site" Gred
Soviet cogitations: 108
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 14 Feb 2014, 12:33
Pioneer
Post 20 Feb 2014, 19:13
When did killing your own people become an idiom? Are you demented? Everyone understands this; why do you think the Vietnamese invaded Cambodia? To end the Khmer Rouge killing of its own people. This has nothing to do with "bourgeoisie" or proletarian - if you'd talk with a proletarian with a class conciousness he would still not condone regime killing..... You do understand, right, that bodies of victims, killed by both Gaddafi and Bashar have beeen found?? Are you literally defending Gadaffi, the man who used million dollars a year on making new clothes for himself? You don't get to use the term class struggle, you don't seem to understand the point of the whole.

"Those who speak like that are suspects, this is the typical approach of the bourgeoisie. A bourgeois can say: "they are killing their people", that's bourgeois ideology. But they can't explain the truth about class and economic relations." ... What, you do now that the elite in the Workers' Party of Korea (WPK) is led by a family, which acts as it owns the country (yes, like a monarchy...)... You do now that people are appointed to high offices based on the caste system (feudalism), you do now that people don't have any democratic rights (because of the Great Leader theory; the Great Leader is not responsible to any laws, but everyone in NK is loyal to him)... How is the WPK socialist?; from 1994 until 2011 Kim Jong-il was the only member of the Presidium.. Literally, the party hasn't convened a congress since 1980, they convened a conference (but a conference can not hold the central WPK leadership accountable...)

What is bourgeoisie ideology? Do you even know? Are you literally so stupid to assume that everyone who accuses regimes of mass killings is an adherence, conscious or not, of bourgeoisie ideology... That doesn't make any sense..
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Soviet cogitations: 2293
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Aug 2010, 14:21
Party Bureaucrat
Post 20 Feb 2014, 23:03
Killing isn't an idiom. The idiom is: "They are killing their own people". Definition of idiom:
a. A specialized vocabulary used by a group of people; jargon: legal idiom.
b. A style or manner of expression peculiar to a given people.
Pol pot never "killed his own people", he only killed a part of the people, not his friends. Vietnam attacked because Vietnam was pro-soviet while Pol Pot was backed by China and the CIA.
Yesterday I was reading a bourgeois article from a famous newspaper about Ukraine. It was called "Look at what they are doing to our people". Two lies contained in this bourgeois idiom:
- "We (the nazis) are the people. No! You are not, only a minority of it.
- "They" are not part of the people. No, they are.
So of course when the same bourgeois idioms are used on SE to support arguments against ME, on this communist board, I'm quite surprised.

Moreover it looks like according to you as soon as you have a "dictator", there is no more class struggle but a struggle between "they" and "their own people." I'm sorry but this isn't marxist.

If by socialist you mean someone who wants to establish a society in which the property of the means of production is collective, then undoubtedly the party is socialist. But if you mean marxist or communist that's an other problem, they are revisionists. Kim 2 books are obviously revisionist.
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"Fishing is part of agriculture" Gred
"Loz, you are like me" Yami
"I am one of the better read Marxists on this site" Gred
Soviet cogitations: 108
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 14 Feb 2014, 12:33
Pioneer
Post 21 Feb 2014, 09:41
Dictatorship leads to the establishment of a new ruling class, a class which more often than not, take advantage of their position to exploit everyone from the economic elite to the masses.. While they are not an economic class in the Marxist sense of the word, such as capitalist or proletariat, they can be best defined as a nobility, an exclusive club. A group who controls because of social status.. Gaddafi definitely became an exploiter (by using the states money on buying football clubs, creating new cloths for him, etc etc etc), and the Kim's are literally using people's money on building palaces for themselves (how is that not exploitation)..
Soviet cogitations: 108
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 14 Feb 2014, 12:33
Pioneer
Post 21 Feb 2014, 09:52
At last, North Korea is not revisionists, its not socialist. In the 1960s people were killed for having a positive view of other socialist states. Today, people are killed because they are racially impure. They've even established a prostitution ring for the elite, what the frag. Its a shit country, and its oppressing its own people.
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Soviet cogitations: 589
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 07 Dec 2013, 14:24
Ideology: Democratic Socialism
Unperson
Post 21 Feb 2014, 10:39
Of course it’s not a socialist regime. A socialist regime has no need for leaders, money, state, gulags, censorship, armies etc.
Apparently they have a currency over in North Korea, but I doubt it will traded on the international market soon
As for scaring the imperialist powers, be fair to them what is wrong with being afraid of nuclear weapons? Why should they not be wary of N. Korea launching a devastating attack on South Korea and why would a socialist think that is impressive?
As for imperialism, North Korea has imperialist ambitions of its own, well it would have if it were not run by such a tin-pot regime. They can’t even feed the population yet they spend 23% of their budget on the military. As for patriotism and nationalism, the regime tells is people it is their patriotic duty to feed the army and only eat 2 meals a day!
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Soviet cogitations: 2293
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Aug 2010, 14:21
Party Bureaucrat
Post 21 Feb 2014, 13:36
Quote:
Dictatorship leads to the establishment of a new ruling class, a class which more often than not, take advantage of their position to exploit everyone from the economic elite to the masses..

Once again your ideology is idealistic, thus bourgeois. A dictatorship is ALWAYS the dictatorship of a class. It's not the dictatorship of a MAN which transforms itself into the dictatorship of a CLASS. Moreover the rule of a class is ALWAYS a dictatorship. Your assumption is especially ridiculous because life is no much better for the rulers of North Korea, yet those fanatics are still there struggling against imperialism even though they would be rich right now if they had decided to betray and surrender. Palaces? What palaces? Where? It reminds me of when someone dare tell me that the FARC are no more communists and that they do that for money. Those guys are living in the JUNGLE and you have stupid people telling slanders like that.

Those things about North Koea being racist are lies. Alejandro Cao de Benos is racially impure? When they attend and give a lot of money to the World festival of Democratic Youth and Students they do that with impure people? Dennis Rodman is impure?

I'm really sad when I read you Yami. The US have alwys been affraid because even without nuclear bombs all the artillery around Seoul could turn it into hell in a few minutes.
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"Fishing is part of agriculture" Gred
"Loz, you are like me" Yami
"I am one of the better read Marxists on this site" Gred
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