Soviet-Empire.com U.S.S.R. and communism historical discussion.
[ Active ]
[ Login ]
Log-in to remove these advertisements.

Albania's Accomplishments

LOCKED
User avatar
Soviet cogitations: 3765
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 11 Nov 2009, 07:13
Ideology: Other Leftist
Politburo
Post 15 Nov 2011, 21:36
Excellent, good for Albania. I am still not clear about why it was "more socialist" than the GDR though. Debt doesn't make something "less socialist."
Image
User avatar
Soviet cogitations: 1001
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 08 Aug 2011, 22:59
Ideology: Other Leftist
Party Member
Post 15 Nov 2011, 21:58
proletarian wrote:
Excellent, good for Albania. I am still not clear about why it was "more socialist" than the GDR though. Debt doesn't make something "less socialist."


Comrade, there is no data for Albania's external debt for a number of years in the late 1980s, so non-existence of data does not mean "zero debt" (the same goes for their current 21st century GDP - the number can vary by 50% and cannot be really pinpointed more accurately, can you imagine that?).

It is true, though, that Albanians were proud by living in autarky. Probably, autarky is just another word for the terms "progress, accomplishments, development".
Soviet cogitations: 722
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 01 Mar 2011, 14:10
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Komsomol
Post 16 Nov 2011, 00:48
proletarian wrote:
A "welfare state" is not the definition of socialism. If the only way that Albania was more socialist than the GDR is because of a better "welfare state" than I have reason to believe neither was socialist.
Actually I was making the point that the GDR merely had a welfare state. It was not socialist. I assumed your question was more like "oh yeah the GDR may have been revisionist BUT LOOK HOW MUCH BETTER OFF IT WAS."

EdvardK wrote:
It is true, though, that Albanians were proud by living in autarky. Probably, autarky is just another word for the terms "progress, accomplishments, development".
Albania welcomed trade with all countries willing to deal with it on an equal basis. Its 1976 constitution did, however, bar foreign investment and the seeking of credits from abroad. International trade was conducted via barter. O'Donnell notes that Albania had very little, if any foreign debt in the late 80's. Hoxha explicitly stated that he had no intention of turning Albania into an autarkic state, only one which would be ensured of its independence and of not opening the doors to capitalist penetration.
User avatar
Soviet cogitations: 3765
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 11 Nov 2009, 07:13
Ideology: Other Leftist
Politburo
Post 16 Nov 2011, 02:18
Quote:
Actually I was making the point that the GDR merely had a welfare state. It was not socialist. I assumed your question was more like "oh yeah the GDR may have been revisionist BUT LOOK HOW MUCH BETTER OFF IT WAS."

So, comrade, will you answer my question of what made Albania socialist and the GDR not? I haven't gotten a straight answer out of anybody and it is quite frustrating ;_;
Image
Soviet cogitations: 722
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 01 Mar 2011, 14:10
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Komsomol
Post 16 Nov 2011, 02:30
proletarian wrote:
So, comrade, will you answer my question of what made Albania socialist and the GDR not? I haven't gotten a straight answer out of anybody and it is quite frustrating ;_;
I've already noted that the GDR was a state-capitalist economy. Most materials on it from an anti-revisionist perspective are, however, available only in German from old KPD/ML materials.

Here are a few: http://www.kpd-ml.org/doc/online.html#buecher
User avatar
Soviet cogitations: 3765
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 11 Nov 2009, 07:13
Ideology: Other Leftist
Politburo
Post 16 Nov 2011, 02:54
Ok, but what made Albania socialist in comparison and not simply state capitalist itself? Was it the type of goods produced, trade relations with other countries?
Image
Soviet cogitations: 722
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 01 Mar 2011, 14:10
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Komsomol
Post 16 Nov 2011, 05:14
proletarian wrote:
Ok, but what made Albania socialist in comparison and not simply state capitalist itself? Was it the type of goods produced, trade relations with other countries?
No, it was because Albania was led by the dictatorship of the proletariat, pursued a consistently socialist foreign policy, worked to oppose bourgeois norms in society, gave dominance and constant support to the socialist sector in industry and agriculture, and altogether represented the interests of the working-class.
User avatar
Soviet cogitations: 3765
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 11 Nov 2009, 07:13
Ideology: Other Leftist
Politburo
Post 16 Nov 2011, 05:55
Ismail wrote:
it was because Albania was led by the dictatorship of the proletariat

How was Albania specifically led by a dictatorship of the proletariat while the GDR wasn't? I would like a specific reason
Ismail wrote:
worked to oppose bourgeois norms in society,

What policies were enacted that specifically show this?
Ismail wrote:
gave dominance and constant support to the socialist sector in industry and agriculture,

How did the "state capitalism" of the GDR and "socialism" of Albania in agriculture and industry differ specifically?
Ismail wrote:
and altogether represented the interests of the working-class.

What specific policies did Hoxha and the Albanian Party of Labor enact that would suggest that it represented the interests of the working class and policies that the GDR passed that would suggest the opposite?

I'm not even necessarily disagreeing with you here, the problem is that Hoxhaists get so wrapped up in M-L jargon that they don't actually say anything concrete. If I could get any concrete examples, I would be more on board. It always reverts to a couple of Hoxha quotes and a jargon tirade turned into a polemic, can you help me understand your point of view better?
Image
Soviet cogitations: 722
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 01 Mar 2011, 14:10
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Komsomol
Post 16 Nov 2011, 07:03
proletarian wrote:
How was Albania specifically led by a dictatorship of the proletariat while the GDR wasn't? I would like a specific reason
In the first place the Party of Labour of Albania was a party untainted by revisionism, and which recognized the necessity of the dictatorship of the proletariat, whereas the USSR and the rest of the Eastern Bloc declared it "unnecessary" after 1956. The policies of the Party coincided with the interests of the working-class and had as its aim the goal of raising the consciousness of the workers.

Quote:
What policies were enacted that specifically show this?
As noted, the GDR's "Consumer Socialism" promoted the active imitation of Western capitalist norms, as well as promoting a spirit of constant competitiveness amongst enterprises in order to attain "socialist profit." Albania did not engage in the former and did not encourage "profitability" as the qualification of an enterprises' effectiveness.

Quote:
How did the "state capitalism" of the GDR and "socialism" of Albania in agriculture and industry differ specifically
The collectives the GDR had lacked the machine and tractors stations of Albania, which were in turn based on the Soviet stations which Stalin explicitly warned against dismantling in his work Economic Problems of Socialism in the U.S.S.R., and which of course Khrushchev denounced and disbanded in the USSR. I don't have details on industry in the GDR, but Bill Bland's commentary on Soviet state-capitalism is worth reading and probably largely acceptable to the GDR post-60's as well: http://www.mltranslations.org/Britain/SovietBB.htm

Quote:
What specific policies did Hoxha and the Albanian Party of Labor enact that would suggest that it represented the interests of the working class and policies that the GDR passed that would suggest the opposite?
The Cultural and Ideological Revolution instituted a number of concrete anti-bureaucratic measures. There was also, of course, the promotion of aforementioned egalitarian wage structures, the consistent implementation of Marxist-Leninist policies, etc. This, of course, is done in conjunction with the correct positions taken by the Party to promote proletarian revolutions abroad as well. Unlike in, say, the 1960's-80's USSR where the CPSU was a den of competing interest groups (notably the Army) and the influence of the working-class, by then quite slight, suffered greatly as a result.
User avatar
Soviet cogitations: 3765
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 11 Nov 2009, 07:13
Ideology: Other Leftist
Politburo
Post 16 Nov 2011, 07:08
That was much clearer for me, thank you.
Ismail wrote:
In the first place the Party of Labour of Albania was a party untainted by revisionism, and which recognized the necessity of the dictatorship of the proletariat, whereas the USSR and the rest of the Eastern Bloc declared it "unnecessary" after 1956.

Why was Albania not tainted with revisionism, and what USSR official document or speech declared the dictatorship of the proletariat "unnecessary"
Image
User avatar
Soviet cogitations: 1001
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 08 Aug 2011, 22:59
Ideology: Other Leftist
Party Member
Post 16 Nov 2011, 09:22
proletarian wrote:
the problem is that Hoxhaists get so wrapped up in M-L jargon that they don't actually say anything concrete.


proletarian wrote:
ismail *blah blah blah*
So, comrade, will you answer my question of what made Albania socialist and the GDR not? I haven't gotten a straight answer out of anybody and it is quite frustrating ;_;


Comrade, your two quotes show exactly why everyone thinks i'm poking fun out of pro-Albanians when I challenge them/him on the thread's title.
Soviet cogitations: 722
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 01 Mar 2011, 14:10
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Komsomol
Post 16 Nov 2011, 22:06
proletarian wrote:
Why was Albania not tainted with revisionism, and what USSR official document or speech declared the dictatorship of the proletariat "unnecessary"
At the 22nd Congress of the CPSU Khrushchev declared that, "In our country, for the first time in history, a State has taken shape which is not a dictatorship of any one class, but an instrument of society as a whole, of the entire people... The dictatorship of the proletariat is no longer necessary." At this same time Khrushchev announced with confidence that "socialism has finally won complete victory in the Soviet Union" and that the construction of Communism was to begin in earnest, and would be completed circa 1980. Hoxha noted that the construction of socialism in the USSR was not completed, therefore one could not discuss constructing communism, even under Stalin. Thus from the 1960's onwards Soviet sources constantly spoke of the USSR as a "state of the whole people," a state which "transcended" classes.

The Party of Labour of Albania did have attempts throughout its existence to pursue revisionist lines. First there was the pro-Yugoslav group led by Koçi Xoxe in the 1940's, then throughout the 1950's individuals like Tuk Jakova and Bedri Spahiu who wanted to liberalize the Party, then in 1960 and 1961 individuals such as Liri Belishova (who is still alive and is an anti-communist today) and Koço Tashko who adopted an openly pro-Soviet position in the Central Committee, then in the 1970's there were efforts by military bureaucrats (Beqir Balluku among them) and right-wing economists (Abdyl Këllezi, Koço Theodhosi, etc.) to overturn the situation in the Party, to accept the Chinese line that Soviet social-imperialism was a "bigger threat" than American imperialism, etc. Finally in 1981 Mehmet Shehu advocated a right-wing line in foreign and domestic policies, and hoped to succeed Hoxha (as he was poised to do) in order to implement these policies.
User avatar
Soviet cogitations: 3765
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 11 Nov 2009, 07:13
Ideology: Other Leftist
Politburo
Post 16 Nov 2011, 22:19
Thank you for that detailed post. I understand more adequately why you believe that the GDR was revisionist and Albania was not.
Image
[+-]
Soviet cogitations: 8
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 06 Sep 2012, 21:44
New Comrade (Say hi & be nice to me!)
Post 06 Sep 2012, 21:54
Albanian socialism was developmentalist on the Third World model. Seen in this light, the creation and distribution of an electric bulb is socialist. A Peoples' Republic + electrification = socialiam. How many class-conscious workers it takes to screw it in lies in the general structural planning.
User avatar
Soviet cogitations: 1001
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 08 Aug 2011, 22:59
Ideology: Other Leftist
Party Member
Post 02 Jan 2013, 16:48
The only thing the Albanians could really accomplish (ie win) on their own was winning the Albanian Cup in football.
[+-]
User avatar
Soviet cogitations: 71
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 22 Jun 2012, 09:46
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Pioneer
Post 02 Jan 2013, 17:06
as i greek i have to mention the help that greek communists partizans of the DSE (Democratic Army of Greece) received from socialist albania during 1946-49 and albania's help to the political refugges from greece
Soviet cogitations: 722
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 01 Mar 2011, 14:10
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Komsomol
Post 11 Jan 2013, 12:11
EdvardK wrote:
The only thing the Albanians could really accomplish (ie win) on their own was winning the Albanian Cup in football.
I don't see why you keep on randomly crapping on Albania. Yugoslavia's standards of living were paid for by exorbitant Western loans and, when it was time to pay back, the Yugoslavs resorted to austerity measures. When they still couldn't pay them back the republics began bickering amongst each other and this played a major role in the Federation's breaking up.
User avatar
Soviet cogitations: 1001
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 08 Aug 2011, 22:59
Ideology: Other Leftist
Party Member
Post 15 Jan 2013, 23:14
Ismail wrote:
I don't see why you keep on randomly crapping on Albania.

Comrade, I'm not *randomly* crapping. This thread is about five greatest accomplishments of Albania during 1945-1990. And I'm still waiting...
Quote:
Yugoslavia's standards of living were ...bla bla blah

I thought we have specific threads in order we can discuss specific topics. What you're trying to do by mentioning other countries is diverting attention away from the glorious Albania. Please, stay on topic and post five greatest accomplishments of Albania during 1945-1990. Thank you.
Loz
[+-]
User avatar
Soviet cogitations: 11879
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 06 Dec 2009, 23:17
Philosophized
Post 15 Jan 2013, 23:29
How was Albania any worse than Bulgaria ( which was the USSR's most loyal satellite in E. Europe )? Even though Albania was put under economical blockade by both the USSR and its satellites and the US ( even though trade with W. Europe was eventually renewed ). For quite a while their only ally was China, on the other side of the world. Can you name five accomplishment of PR of Bulgaria? Of course you can as these are the same as with any other people's democracy, so don't pretend people didn't state facts about Albania earlier in this thread.
Of course that Hoxha's Albania was shitty, but no worse than AP Kosovo which besides got massive federal aid.
User avatar
Soviet cogitations: 1201
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 09 May 2008, 14:59
Ideology: Other Leftist
Forum Commissar
Post 16 Jan 2013, 00:13
Yeah, I don't see this being any kind of productive. Seeing as this is a year old thread that was revived for no good reason other than to bag on Albania, I'm locking it down.
Image


Forum Rules

Red_Son: Bob Avakian is the Glenn Beck of communism.
"Le prolétariat; c'est moi." - King Indigo XIV
Alternative Display:
Mobile view
More Forums: The History Forum. The UK Politics Forum.
© 2000- Soviet-Empire.com. Privacy.
cron