Tribute to Erich Honecker.

Only 20 weeks of studying the fall of communism in Eastern Europe.

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Some are saying that Apollo lunar missions were fake, too.

Which has nothing to do with the subject, it's a fact that there is an ongoing debate about the impact of Marshall aid among scientist in economical history. If you want I can give you some literature tips to read.

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Almost no innocent civilians were shot. And don't forget that the majority of innocent civilians in DDR benefited of the wall, since intellectual elite were not fleeing from the country.

Almost no one? Is wrong to kill and I don't count 231 as almost no.

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You doubt, that's ok. But your feelings are not based on facts... So this doesn't add anything to the debate.

Well what I replied at didn't based the fact on some facts either so why should only I show references?

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And what would be your opinion if it was Mexico or Palestine that built these walls?

What was hard to understand in my post? I said that I thought it's wrong to build a wall, it doesn't matter what country construct it.

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The GDR had no say about the existence of that wall. Approval had to come from the top in Moscow and rightly so.

Yes the had to have green light from Moscow, but it was the leaders of DDR who asked permission to build it, they convinced Moscow.

What do you know of me not taking sides? I take side of whatever I find wrong that I find good I defend. Therefore I can say that some things in DDR was good and other bad, just as in USA or even Sweden. I believe that we shouldn't be satisfied with that is almost good. No I demand perfection, if you think it's easy to speak out against everything bad, try again. I get constantly mistaken for being a communist by rightwing people and a capitalist or something bad from the communist. In my opinion it's the easy way to choose a side, instead of learning what was good and bad in for example DDR you claim that everything was good. The world is not black and white, it is grey.

Apparently the 20 weeks were not enough to answer my simple question.

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Almost no one? Is wrong to kill and I don't count 231 as almost no.

American army killed 35000 innocent civilians in Iraq in 2006, directly or indirectly, and that's only one year by the way.

So 231 people in 30 years is almost no one, indeed.
And also, most of these 231 people were not innocent civilians, but members of organized crime.

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I said that I thought it's wrong to build a wall, it doesn't matter what country construct it.

Walls in USA and Israel are built to consolidate their imperialist power and their wealth.
Wall in GDR was a defensive wall, built to defend the population against their enemies. It was Cold War.

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The world is not black and white, it is grey.

I agree, that's what I am trying to tell you.
Of course walls are not a good thing. I would be very angry if my city was cut in half by a wall.
But even if it's bad, you need to understand that there were reasons behind the construction of the wall. These were good reasons.
You should not say blindly "Berlin Wall is bad", even if it is partly, and "that means that life in DDR was like in hell." because that's not true. It was even better than it is now.
The world is grey.

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Apparently the 20 weeks were not enough to answer my simple question

I left that for you to decide. Basically, it's the conclusion that our tutor promoted.

Right...

I asked if you had anything to back up the statement:

"the 'convergence' of DDR ideology to resemble something not too distant from the FDR's would have been damaging as it would not justify seperate states."

Which seems to imply two things:

-the DDR "ideology" (or do you mean the social system, to which "convergence" mainly refers to in the Cold War context?) was approaching that of the "FDR" (I assume you mean BRD instead of Roosevelt).

-the aforementioned was a deciding factor in delegitimising the division of Germany (which was never deemed legitimate in either side nor in either side's official ideology).

You answered my request for "back up" with "20 weeks of studying the fall of communism in Eastern Europe". That wasn't an answer but an appeal to besserwisserism. Doesn't substitute an argument.

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American army killed 35000 innocent civilians in Iraq in 2006, directly or indirectly, and that's only one year by the way.

So 231 people in 30 years is almost no one, indeed.
And also, most of these 231 people were not innocent civilians, but members of organized crime.

Still I don't think it's a few. Hitler decided that all Jews should be killed and managed to kill about six millions. According to you then what USA do in Iraq is not so bad because they just kill 35000 when Hitler killed 6000000. You can't put it only down to number.
Second, I don't agree that they were members of organised crimes, and even if they should be it not right to cold bloody shot them down.

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Wall in GDR was a defensive wall, built to defend the population against their enemies. It was Cold War.

Interesting why did the people then tore it down? Let my guess, they were fooled to think that the would be rich and everything was going to be better. But then comes the next question, I thought DDR was a paradise, why do the want anything more?
Of course I don't believe this kind of crap.

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I agree, that's what I am trying to tell you.

Nice that we can agree on something, but I don't think it will be anything more. I have heard before that the wall was meant as a protection against imperialist, from East German propaganda. I have never believed that sorts of propaganda and never will. The construction of the wall was bad. Maybe some people miss some parts of the life in DDR, people tend to forget the bad things and only cherish the good. The humans are indeed stupid. I'm convinced that if DDR had been preserved, life would be even worse than it was when the wall was dismantled.
Finally if people are so dissatisfied the can use their democratically right to vote. But once again I assume that Germany is a democracy.

I'm bad with acronyms. Thought it could be FDR (some federal Deutsch republic or something).

The DDR always had a duel legitimacy problem: that of national legitimation (as they attempted to promote it as a seperate, historical state, which it wasn't), and also political legitimation, which it didn't have either. As the socialist system, with reform, would start to become more free markert (and thus 'converge' with the BDR's economical system), the basis for it's national legitimation would be gone as it would no longer be a nation based on socialism. At least, that's what I was taught.

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You answered my request for "back up" with "20 weeks of studying the fall of communism in Eastern Europe". That wasn't an answer but an appeal to besserwisserism. Doesn't substitute an argument.

I have never said that this is completely correct at all. It's a theory which my tutor put forward, to which I adhere. Somewhere in my piles of readings there might be an academic defence of this, but I can't really be arsed to trudge around for it.

Therefore that is why I said "only 20 weeks of studying": because that's all I have.

Okay...

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I have never said that this is completely correct at all. It's a theory which my tutor put forward, to which I adhere. Somewhere in my piles of readings there might be an academic defence of this, but I can't really be arsed to trudge around for it.

Therefore that is why I said "only 20 weeks of studying": because that's all I have.

Alright, it just sounded arrogant. But why would you adher to a theory you can't back up with atleast some basic arguments/facts without going through your "piles of academic reading"? I didn't expect you to remember details, just to point out the basis of the claims.

Now on the topic...

I really don't think the DDR (or German Democratic Republic) really had any more problem of legitimacy as a separate state than did the BRD (or Federal German Republic), especially as Germany was originally divided by the West (then united when it was again suitable for the imperialism).

About the 'convergence' it must be said that it was more than anything a theory developed for the ideological purposes of the West during the "Cold War". I'm not sure if you were told this in your lectures, but the 'convergence' theory didn't only suppose that GDR and other countries of the "Communist Bloc" was developing capitalist traits, but also that the capitalist West succesfully adopted bits of socialism thus eliminating class struggle. And that's what's in the core of the 'convergence' theory - promotion of the illusion of the possibility of a sustainable peace between antagonistic classes (capital and labour) and their respective systems (capitalism and socialism).

In my understanding the construction of socialism in GDR was halted much earlier but this doesn't make the 'convergence' theory any less an anti-communist tool of deception.

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even if they should be it not right to cold bloody shot them down.

Even here, in Canada, if criminals are attempting an evasion, guards are allowed to shoot them (during action) if they are not able to arrest them in any other way.
That's why prison guards have guns.
I think it's a good thing because it protects the population from the criminals.
Let me guess, according to your theory, we should say "Let the criminals go outside of the prison perimeter freely if they want, they will come back later"

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Interesting why did the people then tore it down? Let my guess, they were fooled to think that the would be rich and everything was going to be better.

Of course, everything was not perfect in GDR (remember that black/white/gray discussion), but things were mostly good.
But lawn seems always greener in your neighbor yard.
They thought that consumerism was a good thing and that it would solve all the little things they didn't like (as I said, everything was not perfect).
They forgot about all the advantages they got with their social system.

Of course, they were fooled. In recent surveys, a majority of ex-GDR citizens are thinking that way.
Now unemployment in East-Germany is over 20%, inequality increased by many times, burnout rate skyrocked, they all lose their social and work security, and people are mostly unhappy and overstressed.

But, I could make a concession, of course GDR wasn't perfect (no country ever was) and many things were bad (but not as bad as today).
So maybe if you don't like the term "workers paradise", I could maybe say "model society". Happy?

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Of course I don't believe this kind of crap.

If you prefer CNN propaganda, it's up to you. But of course, I don't believe this kind of crap.

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I have never believed that sorts of propaganda and never will.

Again, it's up to you to be in obscurity. But don't try to convince me without arguments by saying "that's east german propaganda"

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I'm convinced that if DDR had been preserved, life would be even worse than it was when the wall was dismantled.

I do not agree. As I said before, more things are worse today. The best would be if West Germany became socialist

Now we have high unemployment, crime, Aids, prostitution, high suicide rate, homelessness, obesity, general degradation of peoples health, neo-nazis, crap education system etc etc etc.

Can anybody tell me what is better in Germany today?

You can eat banana's?...
I seriously don't know what is better, I spend a lot of time in (East) Germany. Most people I speak to prefer the DDR.

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Most people I speak to prefer the DDR.

Yes, this is not unique to the DDR, but the peoples of the former Soviet Union also express preference for their former Union rather than their current situations. Polls throughout Russia have particularly shown (especially outside of Moscow and St. Petersburg) that the dissolution of the Soviet Union was a serious mistake, and have even indicated positive feelings towards Stalin and Lenin.

But Hekken you know... They can bury Lenin and Stalin a thousand times, but never get rid of them.

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Even here, in Canada, if criminals are attempting an evasion, guards are allowed to shoot them (during action) if they are not able to arrest them in any other way.
That's why prison guards have guns.
I think it's a good thing because it protects the population from the criminals.
Let me guess, according to your theory, we should say "Let the criminals go outside of the prison perimeter freely if they want, they will come back later

Thank you I'm know why prison guards have gun. And no I don't think prisoners should walk around freely, lock the most serious up and try to reintegrate the others in the society. It's funny that a presumed socialist country had criminals, in a try socialist country there is no need for prisons since there are no criminals.
Since I don't believe that they were criminals the whole debate is pointless. Even if they were it would be wrong to use so much force.

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So maybe if you don't like the term "workers paradise", I could maybe say "model society". Happy?

No I don't like to label DDR as a model country. This survey you are talking about, where can I find it? I know that people look back, but my experience with Russia show that it not that easy to say a simple answer like they wont it all back.Instead it's more complex, the people disslike the current situation but donät want the old times back, instead the wont things to improve. The fact that they show affectness to Stalin and Lenin is also missleading, this kind of poolls are always comparing. If you compare Stalin with for example Yeltsin, you will surely find something which Stalin did better than Yeltsin.

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If you prefer CNN propaganda, it's up to you. But of course, I don't believe this kind of crap.

Now you are black and white again, just because I don't agree with you then I according to you have to be the very opposite. Besides I have never looked at CNN.

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Again, it's up to you to be in obscurity. But don't try to convince me without arguments by saying "that's east german propaganda"

Why would I? If you look at the world around a majority of people agree with me that DDR neither was socialist or democratically. Therefore it's up to you to proof, besides I can give you a lot of titles to read but you will only say that they are biased and.

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I do not agree. As I said before, more things are worse today. The best would be if West Germany became socialist

Well yes if that meant true socialism, not the form of perverted socialism which have existed in the world until today. But this is never going to happen because the human nature won't allow it. She is greedy, egoistic, stupid and short sighted.

Rem,

I understand the point you trying to make about people wanting change without reversing into the past. I am afraid there are only the two options between the real exisisting socialism and capitalism (black&white). You can't have a bit of capitalism here and a bit of socialism there. At the end the ruthless economic laws of capitalism will always be dominant. Socialdemocracy is also a failed project as one cannot contain the capitalist beast. We are back to square one and I think an improved version of the socialism we had is the only real alternative. The state of the planet is dire such that only a rational, social and planned economy can resolve. I think you are a left socialdemocrat (maybe Im wrong) as there are lots in sweden. In all fairness sweden is propably the only country that has come closest to harmonising social ideals with the beast. But looking at the forces of globilization the swedish model is a lost one too.

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This survey you are talking about, where can I find it?

You are not even able to read this thread from the start?!

I wrote:

Of course, search on google it's very easy to find...

For example, this one come from CNN (and it's a capitalist media...)

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more than 40 percent said they were happier under the communist regime. A majority said they were unhappy with the economic changes.

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a sentiment that has brought renewed success to the former Communist Party, which posted strong gains in recent state elections. The ex-communists took 40 percent of the vote in the former East Berlin.

http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/europe/9911/09/wall.nostalgia/

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If you look at the world around a majority of people agree with me that DDR neither was socialist or democratically.

Based on what? Most people around the world never live in DDR, you didn't and I didn't.
But people who were living there at that time are saying that life is much worse now than before.

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Therefore it's up to you to proof, besides I can give you a lot of titles to read but you will only say that they are biased

I could do the same thing and you will say that they are biased and that the DDR was an hell because of the Berlin Wall, and that it was undemocratic
I'm starting to think that this "debate" is sterile, since you don't even listen to our arguments. For example, what do you think about that:

Ossi wrote:

Now we have high unemployment, crime, Aids, prostitution, high suicide rate, homelessness, obesity, general degradation of peoples health, neo-nazis, crap education system etc etc etc.

Can anybody tell me what is better in Germany today?

Yes I haven't read the whole thread. Do I have to take part in the discussion?

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Based on what? Most people around the world never live in DDR, you didn't and I didn't.
But people who were living there at that time are saying that life is much worse now than before.

I wasn't takin about if it was better or worse in DDR, I was taking about socialism and democratic. Besides you don't have to live in the country in order to say if it was better or worse. There are other ways of investigate that fact. The survey only show that a majority thinks that it was better before.
If you don't believe me that a majority thinks that DDR was neither democratic or socialist, go to your local library and borrow some books, the will surely talk agree with me more than you.

Do you have the link to the original survey? CNN only talks about a recent survey, I'm truly intersted in reading the whole survey.

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I'm starting to think that this "debate" is sterile, since you don't even listen to our arguments. For example, what do you think about that:

When haven't I answered what you have asked or written? That you quoted, I read it but don't agree with it. Aids existed before, the education system wasn't really high standard, unemployment also existed but all this is pointless. Even if everything was first class one very basal thing was missing, a healthy economy. The Soviet bloc collapsed because the economy was fallin apart. The system needed reform and when that wasn't possible, the system collapsed. So even if so 99,9% or even 110% of the people would want DDR back, you have to ask yourselves, is it possible? A look on the economy shows that this wasn't possible.

I also wait for a couple of answers from you that you don't seems to be willing to answer.

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At the end the ruthless economic laws of capitalism will always be dominant

I mean that people are stronger than economic laws, if we want we can change the world according to our needs. We don't have to choose between capitalism or socialism, we can take the parts we like best from each system. Thats the only way we can construct a better world, learn form misstake from both ways of constructing the world.

Rem,

The education system in the GDR was one of the best in the world, why else has Finland the Pisa study winner coppied theirs from former east-germany. Can you explain that to me?

As an east-german I learned dialectical thinking in school what I can't say about my western fellow countrymen. We learned not only english in school but also russian. I had about 15 subjects in school including astronomy. Never heared of in the west.

The GDR was still among the top 10 industrial nations at the time. Without Marshall plan and the exploitation of the third world.

I don't think that people can rationally and with good will control the forces of capitalism. Its all or nothing. Well. that's my personal view point.

Just to add, the DDR also was for a long period in the top 10 of fastest growing economies andhad the most effective recycling system in the world. Thank you.