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Soviet cogitations: 30
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 15 Jan 2007, 20:57
Unperson
Post 15 Jan 2007, 21:12
Life in the former GDR was not perfect but after 17 years I have now come to the conclusion that it was a system based on common sense and humanity.
Sigmund Jähn, communist and first german in space.
Rem
[+-]
Soviet cogitations: 82
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 30 Nov 2006, 22:03
Pioneer
Post 16 Jan 2007, 16:27
Quote:
It was a worker's paradise as the working conditions in the GDR were extremely good compared to the conditions in capitalist countries.
People in the GDR could do their work in peace without having to worry about being fired or getting loan cuts, stay at home when they were ill without the chance of being fired, freely criticise the way the business was run and there was a state of comradeship between worker's instead of the competition there is in capitalist countries.


Quote:
Life in the former GDR was not perfect but after 17 years I have now come to the conclusion that it was a system based on common sense and humanity.


How can you be so ignorant about the history, if the country was such a paradise. Why did they constructed a wall and killed those trying to escape from the country. I don't count is as an act of humanity to kill innocent people. I'm very interested to know your definition of freely criticise the way business was run.
User avatar
Soviet cogitations: 368
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 26 Aug 2006, 13:32
Komsomol
Post 16 Jan 2007, 16:59
Quote:
killed those trying to escape from the country


Because by GDR law it was a crime.

Quote:
Why did they constructed


Because "they" lost millions when people like doctors fled from the country that gave them absolutely free education because they could earn more in the West.
Simple workers and peasants hardly ever fled from the GDR, it was only the greedy petit-bourgeois that did and thus betrayed the population of the GDR as their skills whose development was financed by the hard working people of the GDR were not available anymore.

Furthermore people were free to request departure anytime they wanted and it was usually allowed by the government if the person requesting departure wasn't needed.

Quote:
I'm very interested to know your definition of freely criticise the way business was run.


A worker in the GDR could go to his "boss" anytime he wanted to and tell him what he thinks is wrong with the way things go at the place he's working at, in a capitalist country a worker that does this will be fired.
If the Tiger does not stop fighting the Elephant, the Elephant will die of exhaustion.
User avatar
Soviet cogitations: 30
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 15 Jan 2007, 20:57
Unperson
Post 16 Jan 2007, 19:48
Quote:
.....if the country was such a paradise. Why did they constructed a wall and killed those trying to escape from the country. I don't count is as an act of humanity to kill innocent people.


The wall was built to prevent acts of sabotage in the GDR. The west-german regime terrorised the GDR the same way as the US did with Cuba. By building the wall all this came to an end. Despite the wall a few hundred east-german border guards were murdered while on duty by criminals from the west.

It was mainly a wall between two opposing world systems and not only between east and west-germany. In many aspects the east-germans had no say regarding that border. Ten times more people died in the Northern Ireland in the last 30 years than people did on the wall.
Last edited by Sigmund Jähn on 16 Jan 2007, 20:21, edited 1 time in total.
Sigmund Jähn, communist and first german in space.
[+-]
User avatar
Soviet cogitations: 3618
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 22 Oct 2004, 15:15
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Politburo
Post 16 Jan 2007, 20:09
Red Robespierre wrote:
Honecker nearly kicked the ass of German Communists from Ruhr that were flying French flags for betraying Germany. I guess they were Nazi too?

Any source for this? I've heard about it before, and it just sounds interesting.
User avatar
Soviet cogitations: 30
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 15 Jan 2007, 20:57
Unperson
Post 16 Jan 2007, 20:23
Are you talking about the east-german flag or the swastika flag?
Sigmund Jähn, communist and first german in space.
Rem
[+-]
Soviet cogitations: 82
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 30 Nov 2006, 22:03
Pioneer
Post 16 Jan 2007, 21:30
Quote:
The wall was built to prevent acts of sabotage in the GDR. The west-german regime terrorised the GDR the same way as the US did with Cuba. By building the wall all this came to an end. Despite the wall a few hundred east-german border guards were murdered while on duty by criminals from the west.

It was mainly a wall between two opposing world systems and not only between east and west-germany. In many aspects the east-germans had no say regarding that border. Ten times more people died in the Northern Ireland in the last 30 years than people did on the wall.


Nice try.
You still don't answer the question. Why prevent the workers leaving if the country was such a paradise? Do you have any source of your statement that a few hundred border guards were murdered?
Even if it has died more people in Northern Ireland, that doesn't make the East geramn crime less. DDR was anything than humanistic, they killed there own citizens who only wanted to emigrate from the country, and when this wasn't possible the did it illegal.
The fact is that to many east german left for the "bad" western state. This was a serious probölem for DDR, talk about western terrorism is only old Eastern german propaganda.
In case you want to broaden you view here you can read about an Easdt German terrorist http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_Wollweber
User avatar
Soviet cogitations: 30
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 15 Jan 2007, 20:57
Unperson
Post 17 Jan 2007, 00:29
Quote:
Nice try.
You still don't answer the question. Why prevent the workers leaving if the country was such a paradise? Do you have any source of your statement that a few hundred border guards were murdered?
Even if it has died more people in Northern Ireland, that doesn't make the East geramn crime less. DDR was anything than humanistic, they killed there own citizens who only wanted to emigrate from the country, and when this wasn't possible the did it illegal.
The fact is that to many east german left for the "bad" western state. This was a serious probölem for DDR, talk about western terrorism is only old Eastern german propaganda.
In case you want to broaden you view here you can read about an Easdt German terrorist http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_Wollweber


What east german crime? It was the law of the country and everyone knew that crossing this border was a suicide mission.The question as to why people left is very easy to answer. Its no secret that the americans invested lots of money into west-germany to make it an attractive magnet for east-germans and to destabilise the east block. The purpose is gone and so is the american financial support. It comes as no surprise that half of east-germany wants the wall up again because the west is deteriorating and did not follow through with its promises. Most east-germans did not leave because of political freedom but because of materialism. Only now people find out that DVD players, bananas, Volkswagen cars etc can't replace the feeling of true freedom that of social security. So take your western prooaganda elsewhere. The perfect society you claim to represent will never exist but the GDR was a step closer to it than capitalist west-germany.
Sigmund Jähn, communist and first german in space.
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Soviet cogitations: 829
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 28 Nov 2006, 20:19
Komsomol
Post 17 Jan 2007, 00:58
@ MattHijs and Sigmund Jaehn: A book I recall that from is Jonathan Steele's Socialism With a German Face. It was in 1950's Budapest at a WFDY gathering. West Germans were flying the French flag for some idiotic reason to 'protest' the BRD.

--

Quote:
Nice try.


The BRD's television and radio penetrated all but the most isolated areas of the GDR. The population was under a constant temptation for instant gratification never experienced by any nation in history as this was a unique situation of a nation divided by American imperialism. Through American aid the West German economy was artificially elevated. this made it an attractive destination for highly skilled workers. The construction of the anti-Fascist wall of Berlin was an economical move and humanitarian necessity needed only until the early-60's by the time the GDR had their Wirtschaftswunder. The wall could have been taken down from an economic standpoint but this would have been ignoring the NATO forces - which were shamelessly modeled on the SS. The fascist threat was such that the anti-Fascist wall had to remain and was given new importance as a bulwark against a BRD government riddled with Hitlerites that claimed not only the GDR territory but most of Poland as its own.

See post #3 for how the west forced the construction of the wall politically: http://www.soviet-empire.com/ussr/viewt ... p?p=621148

See this thread for for information on BRD-SS cooperation to terrorize East Germans: http://www.soviet-empire.com/ussr/viewt ... p?p=621146
Solidarity with the Janjaweed, Musa Hilal and Omar al-Bashir.
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[There is] a new channel by which treachery and espionage penetrate into the Communist Party. It is Zionism. - Klement Gottwald
User avatar
Soviet cogitations: 30
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 15 Jan 2007, 20:57
Unperson
Post 17 Jan 2007, 01:22
The east-german socialists (SED) were advocating a united germany until 1960. The russians and the SED wanted a united germany along the lines of Austria. Neutral and democratic. Its was Konrad Adenauer who prefered half Germany communist free rather than a strong SED party in the parliament of a united Germany. Therefore the FRG was founded before the GDR and so was the introduction of a new currency in the western zones of occupation. Its very obvious that the division of Germany was forced by the americans. Until 1960 the east-german anthem included the words Germany united Fatherland.After the wall was build the anthem was just instrumental and the text forbidden to sing.
Sigmund Jähn, communist and first german in space.
User avatar
Soviet cogitations: 865
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 07 Jan 2007, 06:42
Komsomol
Post 17 Jan 2007, 01:32
Quote:
If life was so great, why did they overthrow the government in the end?

Not only is this idiotic, but it's begging the question. The government was never "overthrown," it merely dissolved for a myriad of reasons, none of which indicative of the inherent "failures" of Marxism-Leninism. This is as foolish as those who credit the fall of socialism in the U.S.S.R. with the sternness of Margaret Thatcher and Ronald Reagan.

Quote:
The east-german socialists (SED) were advocating a united germany until 1960. The russians and the SED wanted a united germany along the lines of Austria. Neutral and democratic. Its was Konrad Adenauer who prefered half Germany communist free rather than a strong SED party in the parliament of a united Germany. Therefore the FRG was founded before the GDR and so was the introduction of a new currency in the western zones of occupation. Its very obvious that the division of Germany was forced by the americans.


Yes, and the Americans wanted nothing more than a divided Germany, as part of their policy of containment. Ultimately, the Soviets should've pushed through to Western Germany, which would've resulted in a better fait than providing the imperialists with a propaganda-state. As Red Robespierre stated, the Americans artificially stimulated the BDR's economy, counter to the alleged natural superiority of the market system
. America used the BDR as a means of employing their safeguard against the "communist threat" throughout Europe. Unfortunately, it was effective on several levels. Shamelessly looking at the most baseless lies serves absolutely nobody. In almost every record there lies an objective truth, and you have to look much deeper than face value in order to arrive at it. Saying that workers were simply leaving the DDR because it wasn't an apparent "paradise" is drawing a hasty generalization without even recognizing the most fundamental explanations behind it.
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User avatar
Soviet cogitations: 30
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 15 Jan 2007, 20:57
Unperson
Post 17 Jan 2007, 01:52
Quote:
Ultimately, the Soviets should've pushed through to Western Germany, which would've resulted in a better fait than providing the imperialists with a propaganda-state.


They should have done so at the time but then the americans would probably have used their new A-bomb.

I never understood as to why the russians gave in and left West-berlin to the americans the british and the french. After all the sacrifies they made to take that city. I know there were some swaps regarding territories of occupation prior to the Berlin crisis and airlift.

West-berlin was like a cancer in the middle of the GDR territory.One big massive spying outpost and starting base for acts of sabotage.
Sigmund Jähn, communist and first german in space.
User avatar
Soviet cogitations: 865
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 07 Jan 2007, 06:42
Komsomol
Post 17 Jan 2007, 02:09
Quote:
They should have done so at the time but then the americans would probably have used their new A-bomb.


This certainly would've been a possible explanation for the Soviets to not push further, but in hindsight, I do not beleive the Americans would've used the atomic bomb on the Soviets. They would have, however, engaged them for West Berlin. I've read numerous sources that Americans were at any minute expecting the Soviets to push westward, and that nobody would've been surprised if a war between the Soviets and Americans had broken out, but there were serious reservations about using the atomic bomb in general, despite the ravings of those like General Macarthur.
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User avatar
Soviet cogitations: 1038
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 11 Jun 2006, 07:25
Party Member
Post 17 Jan 2007, 03:19
Quote:
Nice try.
You still don't answer the question.

OK, so here is the answer you wanted:

Why does USA is building a wall between their territory and Mexico?
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Homer: "You guys are commies? Then why am I seeing free markets?"
Rem
[+-]
Soviet cogitations: 82
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 30 Nov 2006, 22:03
Pioneer
Post 17 Jan 2007, 17:47
Quote:
What east german crime? It was the law of the country and everyone knew that crossing this border was a suicide mission.


I can imagine your reaction if USA stated that it is a crime to leave USA, an outcry. I mean that it is crime to shot innocent civilians. Especially when the law isn't passed democratically. You of course believe that DDR was democratic.


Quote:
The question as to why people left is very easy to answer. Its no secret that the americans invested lots of money into west-germany to make it an attractive magnet for east-germans and to destabilise the east block.


Only part of the answer, the economical recovery of West German was large thanks to them selves too. Some mean that the Marshallplan played a very insignificant role in the post-world war economical recovery of Western Europe.

Quote:
It comes as no surprise that half of east-germany wants the wall up again because the west is deteriorating and did not follow through with its promises.


I doubt that they want the wall again, maybe a large part of the population miss some things but the wall is not one of those things.

Quote:
Most east-germans did not leave because of political freedom but because of materialism. Only now people find out that DVD players, bananas, Volkswagen cars etc can't replace the feeling of true freedom that of social security.


The left for both.

Quote:
So take your western prooaganda elsewhere.


You recently requested more debate, well we are debating. Debate involve per definition two or more opinions.


cmoibenlepro wrote:
Why does USA is building a wall between their territory and Mexico?


What has this to do with it? I think it's terrible, I also think that the wall Israel is building is terrible. Any government who build a wall and shot at the citizens is a bad state. There is a tendency at the forum that paint everytrhing in black and white. Everything USA did or does is bad and therefore everything Soviet Union did is good. It's more complex than that. Luckily not everyone here hold this black and white view.
User avatar
Soviet cogitations: 1038
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 11 Jun 2006, 07:25
Party Member
Post 17 Jan 2007, 18:34
Quote:
I mean that it is crime to shot innocent civilians.

Almost no innocent civilians were shot. And don't forget that the majority of innocent civilians in DDR benefited of the wall, since intellectual elite were not fleeing from the country.

Quote:
You of course believe that DDR was democratic.

It was democratic.


Quote:
Some mean that the Marshallplan played a very insignificant role in the post-world war economical recovery of Western Europe.

Some are saying that Apollo lunar missions were fake, too.

Quote:
I doubt that they want the wall again, maybe a large part of the population miss some things but the wall is not one of those things.

You doubt, that's ok. But your feelings are not based on facts... So this doesn't add anything to the debate.

Quote:
The left for both.

But they were wrong when they believed western propaganda.
Now they lose their social security. And a majority think that life was better during communist times.

Quote:
What has this to do with it? I think it's terrible, I also think that the wall Israel is building is terrible.

And what would be your opinion if it was Mexico or Palestine that built these walls?
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Homer: "You guys are commies? Then why am I seeing free markets?"
User avatar
Soviet cogitations: 30
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 15 Jan 2007, 20:57
Unperson
Post 17 Jan 2007, 19:31
Rem,

The wall was primarily a military border between two opposing blocks NATO and the Warsaw Pact. The GDR had no say about the existence of that wall. Approval had to come from the top in Moscow and rightly so.

Sometimes in life things are just black and white and people have to take sites. You on the other hand do not take any site and choose the easy option out, just critizing everybody without having your own construct of a society. The rest of us live in the real world. Taking into account the almost 30 years the Berlin wall existed not that many were actually killed. As I said before 10 times more people were murdered during the troubles in Northern Ireland during the same time period. Half of them at the hands of the british security forces. The GDR was not perfect but still miles ahead in achieving paradise in comparison to their relatives in the west.
Last edited by Sigmund Jähn on 17 Jan 2007, 21:47, edited 1 time in total.
Sigmund Jähn, communist and first german in space.
User avatar
Soviet cogitations: 1038
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 11 Jun 2006, 07:25
Party Member
Post 17 Jan 2007, 21:09
Quote:
The GDR was not perfect but still miles ahead in achieving paradise as their relatives in the west.

QFT
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Homer: "You guys are commies? Then why am I seeing free markets?"
Soviet cogitations: 214
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 16 Dec 2005, 14:24
Pioneer
Post 18 Jan 2007, 17:26
Quote:
Not only is this idiotic, but it's begging the question. The government was never "overthrown," it merely dissolved for a myriad of reasons, none of which indicative of the inherent "failures" of Marxism-Leninism. This is as foolish as those who credit the fall of socialism in the U.S.S.R. with the sternness of Margaret Thatcher and Ronald Reagan.


Basically, Honecker was scared of Gorbachev's reforms. The East German state was based of the ideology of state socialism, and the 'convergence' of DDR ideology to resemble something not too distant from the FDR's would have been damaging as it would not justify seperate states. Perhaps Honecker's distate of reforms could have meant the survival of the DDR if Hungary hadn't sanctioned the opening of the border with Austria. As a result, thousands of east Germans went to Austria, so Honecker closed the border with Czechoslovakia, thus stopping the route through. However, this culminated in demostrations, most notably in Leipzig, where people demanded a reform of the leadership, in tune with the rest of the Soviet bloc. The leadership dumped Honecker, replacing him with Krenz, attempting reforms that the public did not see as credible. Unintentionally, they opened the borders on the 9th of Novemember, thereby practically signifying the death of the DDR.

One of the most interesting happenings of the end of the DDR was when Gorbachev was in Berlin for the 40th anniversary of the country. Gorbachev announced to "carry on with changes" or something similar, but it's never been sure whether this was aimed at the Party or at the people. Whoever it was aimed at, Honecker's opponents (especially in the New Forum: the main opposition movement) saw this as Gorbachev undermining Honecker, which provided them with a catalyst for change.

Basically, the people might not have overthrown it themselves, but they put enough pressure on the government to dissolve itself which, rightly or wrongly, was what most of the population wanted.
Speak not of revolution until you are willing to eat rats to survive- The Last Poets
J.
[+-]
User avatar
Soviet cogitations: 605
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 27 Apr 2003, 22:15
Komsomol
Post 18 Jan 2007, 17:52
Quote:
Basically, Honecker was scared of Gorbachev's reforms.

This appears to be true.
Quote:
and the 'convergence' of DDR ideology to resemble something not too distant from the FDR's would have been damaging as it would not justify seperate states.

This appears to be speculation. Anything to back that up with?
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