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Why did Enver Hoxha

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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 19 Aug 2006, 17:42
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
R.I.P.
Post 26 Jan 2008, 13:10
Quote:
Comrade Bourgeois Jobbyman sums it up the best


haha,, that was written when jobbyman was still Comrade jobbyman.. those were the days.. Jobby went seemingly one day from reading Mao to reading Ayn Rand.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 27 Sep 2007, 23:24
Pioneer
Post 26 Jan 2008, 16:34
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Bacause of the crimes religious leaders (and their followers) had commited against humanity. Religions, all of them, are against humanity and are responsible for millions if not billios of murders.

I am against religion but this statement is wrong.

It is the people who use the concept of religion, to further their own ends, who are the real ones against humanity and responsible for the deaths of millions.

Blaming religion, for every bad thing that was done in its name by people with an agenda, would be historical simplism of the highest degree.
Last edited by Albion on 27 Jan 2008, 00:54, edited 2 times in total.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 15 Jan 2008, 17:55
Pioneer
Post 26 Jan 2008, 23:31
I have much to say on the relations of Communism and religion, prepare for a nice long post.

Religion is counter-revolutionary, because it is fundamentally superstitious, and, because, it is fundamentally hierarchical. If we do not suppress religion and all of its tendencies in the days after a working class revolution has become successful, the superstitious and hierarchical nature of religion, and, its institutions, would be nothing more than a lightning rod for counter-revolutionary and reactionary forces that oppose the working class revolution and the gains that it will grant to humanity. Moreover, it will drag normal people who were working class before the working class revolution and that are supportive of the working class revolution, to the side of counter-revolution and reaction, simply because of the fact that religion and its institutions have this magnificent clout that would not be disturbed by a successful working class revolution, due to the fact that this revolution has not been willing to suppress it. I can say this with absolute certainty, because I understand that religion is contradictory with both science and Communism as they truly are, and it will always be so.

Okay, so most would dismiss this because it violates with their fanciful idea of free speech. But every Communist must realize at some point, that "free speech" has not ever existed and can not ever exist. True, in a real Communist society, there may be a higher degree of speech freedoms,but, it will never be totally based on the concept of "free speech", because, certain types of speech are psychologically harmful to the existence of a successful working class revolution, and may result in such physical harm that it would be able to prevent the working class revolution that has been successful from perpetuating itself.

Though this is a basic reality for Communists, all must understand that free speech is not our enemy. Counterrevolutionary forces and all of those who are detrimental to the liberation of workers must at some point be suppressed.

This is the entire purpose of the dictatorship of the proletariat; the proletariat must seize power and establish Socialism before establishing any kind of Communism. See, complete Communism will only work without counterrevolution always a looming possibility. Bourgeois interests, institutions, and forces must therefore be suppressed while the proletariat is in a position where this suppression does not have to be one of rebellion: rather, the proletariat is in perfect position to dominate over these interests, institutions, and forces. Do you think the transitional State was theorized for the lulz? 'Course not.

Now, my beef with Hoxha and banning religion is this: suppression and blatant infringement of liberties of the people are two different things. Ol' Enver seems to have ignored completely there is such a thing as a Theistic proletarian, I may even be as radical to say most of the proletariat holds to some faith or another. So, while the proletariat is in power, there must be precise suppression and not complete bans: Marx has told us what to do with Theistic proletarians.

Karl Marx has told us from most of his work on religion and adversely materialism that religion is ultimately a product of alienated material conditions, much like the sub-class the lumpenproletariat and many other things. We have all realized Capitalism cannot fix the problems it creates. Marx suggests to us the alteration of social conditions created by Socialism will slowly lift Theistic moral crutches from the workers and instill in them working class culture. Just as Engels says the state apparatus will wither away as the workers culture and social condition allows it to, the Church will go with it.

Hoxha's decision to keep even proletarians from religion shows clearly he has not grasped materialism and the practice of this philosophy very well. All this will do is alienate the people from Communism. While we insist on the primacy of science over ideology, it is our task to win the battle of democracy.

Communists can be thought of as Anti-Theists, but I personally would rather be known as a materialist who's analysis of society (based on Marx's) has put my goals and religion directly at odds.

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Bacause of the crimes religious leaders (and their followers) had commited against humanity. Religions, all of them, are against humanity and are responsible for millions if not billios of murders.


Oh shut up, you've absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Religion is a social and economic alienation, not a genocidal institution. Please proceed to stop posting in this thread, if not this board, you are an immediate threat to the achievement of Communism; if the workers see nutters like you representing us, we will be forever doomed and the burden will be upon your shoulders for it was completely your fault.

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Religion of any kind sucks, it only brought war and suffering through history. People slaughtering eachother just because they believed in some other god. If you think about it it's really insane..


It sucks? That's you're great analysis? I can't believe I'm actually debating Leftists over this. I would think you Marxists read some freaking Marx.

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Because he was an Ultra-leftist.


This thread is absolutely full of fruitloops, I'll tell ya. Admins need to take a stricter stance on deleting posts that supply to the thread absolutely nothing.

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This topic is on the banning of religion in albania but i have anthor qustion why were cars banned for the avrege citizen.


Start another thread, don't contribute to the pile of one-liners in this one.

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Religion is only an issue because socialism is an issue; socialism drew attention to religion, which, as Comrade Jobbyman said, was already dying anyway. But people saw Albania was Communist and were like, "Oh no! Communism is killing religion!" And that's why it's an issue.


What the hell are you talking about?

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the leader of the religion institutions during WW2 collaborated with Nazis and Italian fascists.The most of the traitors were the catholics.


This justifies only suppression of bourgeois institutions promoting religious fundamentalism. Capitalism feeds off of the alienation of people, and as I have pointed out religion is alienation. Thus, the bourgeoisie has naturally implemented a strategy that makes religion an organ of class rule.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 28 Feb 2007, 03:32
Komsomol
Post 28 Jan 2008, 01:56
Quote:
Religion is counter-revolutionary, because it is fundamentally superstitious, and, because, it is fundamentally hierarchical. If we do not suppress religion and all of its tendencies in the days after a working class revolution has become successful, the superstitious and hierarchical nature of religion, and, its institutions, would be nothing more than a lightning rod for counter-revolutionary and reactionary forces that oppose the working class revolution and the gains that it will grant to humanity. Moreover, it will drag normal people who were working class before the working class revolution and that are supportive of the working class revolution, to the side of counter-revolution and reaction, simply because of the fact that religion and its institutions have this magnificent clout that would not be disturbed by a successful working class revolution, due to the fact that this revolution has not been willing to suppress it. I can say this with absolute certainty, because I understand that religion is contradictory with both science and Communism as they truly are, and it will always be so.


I more or less agree with this statement, however, I feel that Religion at times can be a progressive force. Sometimes Religion will motivate people to make the world around them better. However, this is only a short term thing, something that Revolutionaries may or may not seek to play off of in a fashion similiar to nationalism.

These issues, in my view, are double edged swords, in that they ARE capable of in the short term brining about progressive change, but they almost always will find themselves content at a certain point(one usually directly benificial to themselves) and become reactionary. At this point, it will be necessary to begin the process of suppressing these attitudes, in a way so as to not upset the proletariat, as you stated.

Oh, and most of thses people probably won't be replying back to you, it looks as if they got out of dodge long ago.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 27 Sep 2007, 23:24
Pioneer
Post 28 Jan 2008, 15:22
I think that it is very stupid on a leftists part to go around saying "Religion is reactionary and we are going to destroy it when we get into power hahaha!", because the last time i looked, over half this world (According to statistics) held religious beliefs.

So any attempt at Socialism, with this anti-religion stance, would be doomed to failure, as we would be alienating the vast majority of people in the world due to our anti-religion stance.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 28 Feb 2007, 03:32
Komsomol
Post 29 Jan 2008, 01:19
Agreed. I'm not so much against the idea of religion as I am the institutions that develop around it (i.e. Churches).
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 15 Jan 2008, 17:55
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Post 29 Jan 2008, 02:18
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think that it is very stupid on a leftists part to go around saying "Religion is reactionary and we are going to destroy it when we get into power Haha!"


We won't destroy it, it will dissolve and its institutions will be suppressed due to the fact that they will certainly resist revolution. You obviously claim to no knowledge of what the nature of religion is, and accordingly have never read Marx's materialist works. Don't speak on that which you are not learned.

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because the last time i looked, over half this world (According to statistics) held religious beliefs.


Because the world is Capitalist. Did you read my post at all?

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So any attempt at Socialism, with this anti-religion stance, would be doomed to failure, as we would be alienating the vast majority of people in the world due to our anti-religion stance.


It's not an anti-religion stance, it is the recognition of religion as a counterrevolutionary force having its origins in the oppression of the working class. Of course, blatant or militant anti-theism would alienate Communism from the people, but you're missing the point completely.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 27 Sep 2007, 23:24
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Post 29 Jan 2008, 15:13
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Agreed. I'm not so much against the idea of religion as I am the institutions that develop around it (i.e. Churches).

Yeah i am the same.
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We won't destroy it, it will dissolve and its institutions will be suppressed due to the fact that they will certainly resist revolution. You obviously claim to no knowledge of what the nature of religion is, and accordingly have never read Marx's materialist works. Don't speak on that which you are not learned.

Sorry for being an unread Prole, my learned elitist superior.
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Because the world is Capitalist. Did you read my post at all?

Religion was around way before Capitalism, so that doesnt explain why people hold religious beliefs.
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It's not an anti-religion stance, it is the recognition of religion as a counterrevolutionary force having its origins in the oppression of the working class.

How can religion be anti-working class, when it was around way before Capitalism and the development of an urban industrialized working class?

I agree that even before Capitalism, religion has always been used by those high up to keep those at the bottom content and more accepting of their authoritary.

But to call all religions oppressive is unfair, because it is the hierarchies in religion that are the oppressive force.

Lets not forget the time period that most religions developed in (Which was much different from what we see as normal nowadays).

Out of intrest, have you ever heard of Liberation Theology?
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 15 Jan 2008, 17:55
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Post 29 Jan 2008, 23:23
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Sorry for being an unread Prole, my learned elitist superior.


Like a Marxist who has read Marx, even as a proletarian, is totally a contradiction... and either way, ya can get em all for free at marxists.org. No wage slavery, eh, unread Prole?

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Religion was around way before Capitalism, so that doesnt explain why people hold religious beliefs.


We are speaking of religion as:
1. Contemporary religion
2. An organ of class rule

Moreover, primitive religion is merely tribal societies attempting to explain things they do not understand, and, for instance in the Aryan, Maurya, and Gupta periods of India, used to instill fear within the masses and keep them in line (see caste system). Religion is and always has been an organ of exploitation and counterrevolutionary characteristics. It is superstitious and inherently hierarchal and thus an enemy of all classless thoughts.

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How can religion be anti-working class, when it was around way before Capitalism and the development of an urban industrialized working class?


Just because there wasn't an advanced urban proletariat doesn't mean there weren't workers or monetary economy. Trust me, ancient people needed to eat too.

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But to call all religions oppressive is unfair, because it is the hierarchies in religion that are the oppressive force.


And the hierarchy is utilized to be the oppressive force, and moreover this hierarchy (the realization of an uncreated God) is at the center of all Theisms.

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Out of intrest, have you ever heard of Liberation Theology?


Yeah, and I thoroughly disagree with it.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Sep 2006, 22:05
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Philosophized
Post 29 Jan 2008, 23:44
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Yeah, and I thoroughly disagree with it.


Regardless of whether you disagree with it many South American Marxists follow Liberation Theology and I see no reason to stop them. It will be infinitely easier to win the revolution with religion on our side rather than against us.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 15 Jan 2008, 17:55
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Post 30 Jan 2008, 14:17
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Regardless of whether you disagree with it many South American Marxists follow Liberation Theology and I see no reason to stop them. It will be infinitely easier to win the revolution with religion on our side rather than against us.


You guys have to understand what I'm (and Marx is) proposing here. The theistic proletariat will exist throughout revolutionary praxis, but during the existence of a proletarian State religion will be in a phase in which it is dissolving; its institutions will be under suppression as they will most definitely resist Communist revolution, and its followers over time will become a Secular population as alienation and class rule no longer exists (just as how the State itself dissolves when the spoils of Capitalism are clean from society). Marx proposed this just as I do now. Liberation Theology can exist all it wants, and bring Socialism successfully, but it is rather unnecessary as they make no note of what Communism means for the fate of religion.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 15 May 2005, 17:11
Komsomol
Post 30 Jan 2008, 15:34
I think religion has no future, all over the world there have been signs of religions fading, in some places faster than in others. I think that if people achieve a certain welfare in society a lot of people automatically lose their interest in religion. In Western Europe for example and especially in The Netherlands where I live (which was a very religious country in the first half of the 20th century) religion and the influence it has on society started fading in the sixties when the Dutch economy started to strengthen and a lot of people could afford a much better life. Why is it that the most fanatical religious people live in poor country's? Just because poor people tend to need something to guide them through harsh times and something they can hold on to, but once they get a higher income and an easier life they easily lose their faith.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 19 Aug 2006, 17:42
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Post 30 Jan 2008, 15:47
Quote:
all over the world there have been signs of religions fading


the sign I see of this is as such: there used to be black and white. now there is a lot of grey areas..
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Sep 2006, 22:05
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Post 30 Jan 2008, 16:01
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I think religion has no future, all over the world there have been signs of religions fading


Have you looked at the middle east or the central US lately? That's not what I call fading.

@Dr. Sex: I think that is idealism. Religion is as old as humankind. Even in the caves we were worshiping gods. I see it losing its power over society but I don't think it will ever disappear. People will always wonder what happens when they die. We can't escape that.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 27 Sep 2007, 23:24
Pioneer
Post 31 Jan 2008, 00:52
As a Socialist, i believe in the "withering away of religion" theory.

Now if a revolution breaks out, and we all start going nuts suppressing religion, then the religious people will naturally feel under attack and band together, which has the result of strengthening their faith in their religion and making them our enemies (When they could have been useful allies or at least hard working neutral citizens).

Now seeing how in some areas of the world, religion has a deep impact on peoples lives, we would do well not to go around and start persecuting these people.

If we want religion to wither away in a Socialist society, then the only solution is to leave it completely alone (Though bring in laws that would require no more religious education or schools etc, unless it is to teach reading and writing only) and it will soon become a small minority in society, due to former believers realising that it doesnt really do anything for them after all.

But like i said before, persecuting religion and religious people would be the worst mistake that revolutionaries could make, as it would drive them into the camp of the enemy.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 15 Jan 2008, 17:55
Pioneer
Post 31 Jan 2008, 00:58
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As a Socialist, i believe in the "withering away of religion" theory.


As do I, why are you debating me?

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But like i said before, persecuting religion and religious people would be the worst mistake that revolutionaries could make, as it would drive them into the camp of the enemy.


It's not persecution of religious people, it is the precise suppression of counterrevolutionary religious institutions so as to make sure religious institutions cannot hold a seat of power, as they are directly at odds with Communist revolution and will resist. Institutions will be suppressed because they will suppress us, the religion it follows will disappear from society as Marx has told us.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 15 May 2005, 17:11
Komsomol
Post 12 Feb 2008, 23:13
Quote:
If we want religion to wither away in a Socialist society, then the only solution is to leave it completely alone (Though bring in laws that would require no more religious education or schools etc, unless it is to teach reading and writing only) and it will soon become a small minority in society, due to former believers realising that it doesnt really do anything for them after all.


I agree with you on that. Prosecution of religious people would be a huge mistake. It would only give them more strength and a cause to fight for. They could easily rally a lot of people to fight for their religious freedom. Leaving religion be is the best way to let it fade away.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 17 Jul 2006, 00:10
Ideology: Other Leftist
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Post 13 Feb 2008, 01:07
you want to get rid of religion? then build more universities. scandinavia is a nice example.
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zato je njeno ljudstvo pripravljeno umreti.

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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 16 Feb 2008, 22:27
New Comrade (Say hi & be nice to me!)
Post 21 Feb 2008, 07:03
Enver Hoxha more or less used "Religion" as the main focus of his battle against "Revisionism" within Albania. Hence, while there were no Priests or Imams, people like Ramiz Alia climbed higher in the ranks with their intentions to restore Capitalism.

Religion can play a largely progressive or reactionary role based upon which class it represents. Marx was largely incorrect in my eyes on religion, the proof for this is the modern day, when many of the Anti-Imperialist people's wars use religion as a key element. Sure, there is a Bourgeois use of religion which focuses on saying "just accept exploitation and things will be better in heaven.", but there is also a Proletarian outlook and the Proletarian religious views, which often involve social-justice, Anti-Imperialism and play a very progressive role. Many of these so-called Marxists who simply tell people to abolish religion and cling to their own personal dogmatism, they are the same ones who support men like Fatah over Hamas, the Zionists over Hizb'Allah and Imperialism over Resistance. They use religion as a pretext to abandon Anti-Imperialism and to discard the Anti-Imperialist movements of which religion is an expression of the people's movement.

On the other hand, many in Albania were keen on eliminating religion, and few, not even Enver Hoxha, dared to move against the Bourgeoisie within the Party of Labour of Albania. The Cultural Revolution of Albania was at best simply an attempt to create "proletarian spiritual outlooks" and at worst a mere distraction from the real struggle against Revisionism and the Bourgeoisie emerging to restore Capitalism. Seeing that Capitalism was restored with incredible ease by the hand-picked successor of Enver Hoxha and the Party of Labour, I think the latter.
Forward along the road of Marxism-Leninism-Maoism.

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