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Stasi

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Soviet cogitations: 303
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 18 Jul 2005, 00:40
Komsomol
Post 27 Jul 2005, 10:58
What do you guys think of the East German 'Stasi' or Secret Police? East Germany had the highest rates of people being spied on EVER but then again it was a pretty much 98% crime free place, so I think it was pretty good. People if suspected should be watched and spied on, A secret police force is an excellent idea.
"What they have to discover, what all the efforts of capitalism's enemies are frantically aimed at hiding, is the fact that capitalism is not merely the 'practical,' but the only moral system in history."
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Soviet cogitations: 4510
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 07 Oct 2004, 22:04
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Resident Soviet
Post 28 Jul 2005, 03:31
What would you say to your anticommunist government spying on you for your political beliefs?

As a socialist, I wouldn't mind because I have nothing to hide, but consider people who had differing beliefs in that time and were persecuted because of it.
"The thing about capitalism is that it sounds awful on paper and is horrendous in practice. Communism sounds wonderful on paper and when it was put into practice it was done pretty well for what they had to work with." -MiG
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Soviet cogitations: 303
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 18 Jul 2005, 00:40
Komsomol
Post 28 Jul 2005, 03:35
... East Germany was probably the most Socialist state ever...
but the stasi were excellent and most people had nothing to hide, but it was just a safety messure to ensure the solidarity of the people.
"What they have to discover, what all the efforts of capitalism's enemies are frantically aimed at hiding, is the fact that capitalism is not merely the 'practical,' but the only moral system in history."
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Soviet cogitations: 4510
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 07 Oct 2004, 22:04
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Resident Soviet
Post 28 Jul 2005, 04:00
I am saying that if you live in a Western government (which I assume you do), would you mind your government spying on you for your 'leftist affiliations'?

I doubt people felt safer or happier with the Stasi around; a secret police force would make me feel unsecure and cautious, even if I had nothing to hide. But nevertheless for their time in history I guess they were necessary.
"The thing about capitalism is that it sounds awful on paper and is horrendous in practice. Communism sounds wonderful on paper and when it was put into practice it was done pretty well for what they had to work with." -MiG
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Soviet cogitations: 303
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 18 Jul 2005, 00:40
Komsomol
Post 28 Jul 2005, 07:03
Hmm, We have alot of survalance of people right now, due to terrorism and whatnot, I really wouldn't give a crap... it insures the safety of the people.
"What they have to discover, what all the efforts of capitalism's enemies are frantically aimed at hiding, is the fact that capitalism is not merely the 'practical,' but the only moral system in history."
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Soviet cogitations: 4510
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 07 Oct 2004, 22:04
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Resident Soviet
Post 29 Jul 2005, 02:42
If terrorists wanted to hit the US, the government wouldn't be able to stop them. The problem with terrorism is that it is spontaneous, it is quick, and it is accomplished by a very small group of people. If there were as many sleeper cells in the US as some government officials say (up to 1000), the US would have a terrorist attack every day.

I feel a lot of money has been wasted, both by the government and the average citizens, to try to prevent something that doesn't exist/or exists on a fraction of the scale of what people in power are trying to make you think.

Fear runs the world, and the US especially these days with this whole terrorism thing. The leaders know it, and are milking the "opportunity" well. Those 9/11 highjackers were idiots. All they did was give the Bush administration excuses for the various imperialist/anti-democratic acts they've committed.
"The thing about capitalism is that it sounds awful on paper and is horrendous in practice. Communism sounds wonderful on paper and when it was put into practice it was done pretty well for what they had to work with." -MiG
Soviet cogitations: 1103
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 26 Jul 2006, 10:21
Party Member
Post 23 Apr 2007, 22:45
Quote:
What do you guys think of the East German 'Stasi' or Secret Police? East Germany had the highest rates of people being spied on EVER but then again it was a pretty much 98% crime free place, so I think it was pretty good. People if suspected should be watched and spied on, A secret police force is an excellent idea.


El gobierno has my full blessings to use up its resources to spy on dudes seriously intending to blow s#$t up. But I can do without los puercos conducting surveillence on what clothing I wear, who I'm talking to, what I'm smoking etc.
Soviet cogitations: 152
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 12 Feb 2007, 10:41
Unperson
Post 25 Apr 2007, 13:37
There is a secret police in the DPR. It does the same thing
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 07 Oct 2004, 22:04
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Resident Soviet
Post 25 Apr 2007, 15:14
Please disregard everything I have said in this thread.
-soviet78
"The thing about capitalism is that it sounds awful on paper and is horrendous in practice. Communism sounds wonderful on paper and when it was put into practice it was done pretty well for what they had to work with." -MiG
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Soviet cogitations: 3508
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 07 Jun 2005, 23:39
Politburo
Post 29 Apr 2007, 02:37
Quote:
Please disregard everything I have said in this thread.
-soviet78

New views?
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'Soviet-Empire. 500% more methods than other leading brands.'
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Soviet cogitations: 4510
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 07 Oct 2004, 22:04
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Resident Soviet
Post 29 Apr 2007, 04:10
I just feel that socialist states did and do need organizations like the Stasi while capitalist agents and internal dissent (from those that seek to establish a new order in their interests, and the sheep that follow them) threatens to destroy the gains of socialism. Basically my position has moved away from one of idealism and toward realism.
"The thing about capitalism is that it sounds awful on paper and is horrendous in practice. Communism sounds wonderful on paper and when it was put into practice it was done pretty well for what they had to work with." -MiG
Soviet cogitations: 1103
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 26 Jul 2006, 10:21
Party Member
Post 22 May 2007, 21:15
Quote:
I just feel that socialist states did and do need organizations like the Stasi while capitalist agents and internal dissent (from those that seek to establish a new order in their interests, and the sheep that follow them) threatens to destroy the gains of socialism. Basically my position has moved away from one of idealism and toward realism.


Yet, the Stasi couldn't save the GDR. At some points, I get really confused as to what their designated duties actually were...

Internal dissent is a blatant byproduct of public dissatisfaction & only gains fruit if the system you're ruling over is unable to fulfill the aspirations of the common folk. Which is why, for example- in my very own South Asia, for instance, you saw much less dissent in comrade Nehru's time & much more dissent in modern times, eventhough we have a truckload more "anti terrorism laws" & "anti terror special police" units these days.

As far as the GDR went, I don't think the Stasi did anything other than give the top shotcallers some sort of a false security blanket. If the Stasi was truly a guarantor of the existence of the East German state, we would still have a GDR today. An armed outfit should NEVER be tied into the everyday workings of the state & the people and should only be summoned in dire circumstances (NATO attack, zombie plague etc., etc)

Secret police forces can't be used to solve social problems. If the concern was a large outflow of people from the GDR into the FRG perhaps Honicker should've given them something like Western Hezegovina or Termez rather than surprise visits from el uber puerco


I could see the Stasi as a necessity during perhaps the early post WWII years- but in the 60s, 70s and 80s
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Sep 2006, 22:05
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Philosophized
Post 22 May 2007, 21:26
Quote:
Yet, the Stasi couldn't save the GDR.


Exactly. A proactive secret police force does nothing but drive dissent underground. And there is something about a movement being driven underground that makes it grow like crazy. The Tzar's cossaks attempted to remove Bolshevik dissent and look how that worked out for the Tzar.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 17 Jan 2005, 07:15
Unperson
Post 22 May 2007, 21:53
Why bother with a secret police to channel out traitors?
Just have their motives publicly exposed and line them up for firing squads. People are way more faithful and understanding when they realize the danger these bourgeois-elements impose.
banistansig2
Soviet cogitations: 1103
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 26 Jul 2006, 10:21
Party Member
Post 22 May 2007, 21:55
Quote:
Exactly. A proactive secret police force does nothing but drive dissent underground. And there is something about a movement being driven underground that makes it grow like crazy. The Tzar's cossaks attempted to remove Bolshevik dissent and look how that worked out for the Tzar.


I don't see why many governments simply can't get a clue that before "capitalism", "socialism" or any other "ism"- the first and foremost is "leave me the f#$k alone-ism."

Once you start monitoring / interrogating folks on a regular basis, and start involving the state apparatus in the functioning of public life, people aren't going to be too happy about it, no matter where they're from.

To compare the Stasi to modern democratic police forces though- Stasi & the East German government had archived access to 33% of their citizens' total population. In the US, the DEA, the LAPD or any other government auxiliary has archived access to 90%+ through the social security number
PrarieCommie
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Post 23 May 2007, 01:38
Well to be fair, West Germany and the United States really focussed on the DDR sabatoge and espionage wise. In that regard, twithout a doubt the Stasi were quite helpful. Also you can guaruntee there were no school shootings or other crime sprees like that with the Stasi around. However, as far as I know, they took the surveillence of people for thier political beliefs to an unexceptable extreme.
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Soviet cogitations: 3508
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 07 Jun 2005, 23:39
Politburo
Post 23 May 2007, 14:00
Quote:
Why bother with a secret police to channel out traitors?
Just have their motives publicly exposed and line them up for firing squads. People are way more faithful and understanding when they realize the danger these bourgeois-elements impose.

Well one needs a secret police to discover the motives...

And in terms of the execution, it would depend on the offense.
If it was for say merely attempting to cross the wall, the only understanding that would result from the people would be the understanding that to leave is to get a bullet in the head. No faithfulness, just alienation.

And I fully agree with Arif's conclusion.
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'Soviet-Empire. 500% more methods than other leading brands.'
Soviet cogitations: 1103
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 26 Jul 2006, 10:21
Party Member
Post 23 May 2007, 14:36
Quote:
Well to be fair, West Germany and the United States really focussed on the DDR sabatoge and espionage wise.


Which is why you need military intelligence and counter-espionage units, not secret police that go around prowling behind what people do.
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Soviet cogitations: 1785
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 17 Jan 2005, 07:15
Unperson
Post 23 May 2007, 15:03
First of all, my point was that there is no real need for a secret police to begin with. If the society is built upon the model that we're talking about, why the f*ck would anyone want to keep what they think to themselves? We're talking about the dictatorship of the proletariat. Obviously, bourgeois elements will exist and they will be fought, but all in all - there is no need for a secret police.

I'd rather invest the time and effort into building up counter-espionage units and continue to expand the military, both intelligence-wise and in terms of military capacity. War with the "imperialists" is inevitable.
banistansig2
Soviet cogitations: 1103
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 26 Jul 2006, 10:21
Party Member
Post 23 May 2007, 16:06
Quote:
First of all, my point was that there is no real need for a secret police to begin with. If the society is built upon the model that we're talking about, why the f*ck would anyone want to keep what they think to themselves? We're talking about the dictatorship of the proletariat. Obviously, bourgeois elements will exist and they will be fought, but all in all - there is no need for a secret police.

I'd rather invest the time and effort into building up counter-espionage units and continue to expand the military, both intelligence-wise and in terms of military capacity. War with the "imperialists" is inevitable.


I agree.

Another problem w/ "secret police" units is that as time progresses, counter espionage often leads to more active policing on the citizenry. And people don't being policed.

From my somewhat limited knowledge of the Stasi, their initial mission seemed to be filtering out NATO intelligence elements & saboteurs out of the GDR. It spilled to the extent of mass policing, as emigrating to the FRG became associated w/ being a punishable crime.

If lots of people are leaving your borders, giving them a Western Hezegovina, or a Termez is far more beneficial & result yielding & cheaper for the State than having them monitored to the brim actively by special police.

Secret police units are practically useless. As you said, I'd rather put that money into the armed forces apparatus.

If GDR & Socialist countries w/ strong interior police forces- spent more of their military & defense budget on say- bailing out Nasser- instead of putting all the $$ into some saddistically clownish interior police units, there's a greater chance Socialism would've still been preserved today.

Secret police units are required to do very minute & detailed chores. Most certainly the Stasi was. By massively funding them, the emphasis is lost on the larger scheme of things- such as inivetable conflict w/ imperialists. Such as 1967 Egypt & the oil crisis that hit the Socialist world after Nasser's defeats & deaths.

Those "ultra uber" Stasi agents should've been doing things like distrupting NATO reinforcements in Tel Aviv & sabotauging IDF's logistics, instead of snooping on what fellow citizens are talking about in the privacy of their own homes.
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