Mao - Mass-Murderer??

you

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Did you know that the FIRST word children are taught at kindergarten is "mine" ? Smile

me

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Prove that is what they teach all kids first...because from what I'm aware of...kids can speak before Kindergarten (i'm sorry if you didn't).....and usually their first word is mommy or daddy.

you

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NO WAY!
I thought everyone learned to talk/walk/eat/shit/piss/drink/sleep at kindergarten!! (red herring)

me

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No actual response today Fontis?

you

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No, my point was that you're trying to impose some sort of stupid sarcasm onto what I posted.

Yea I understood that what you were saying was nonsense that you made up to try and sound right. But whatever...seclude yourself with that voice in your head again.

I'm now done with THIS thread as well.

Man you are so arrogant it's blatantly obvious.

I know for a fact that the first words my younger cousins and other siblings of my friends were taught were "mine". They were taught how important it was to make sure "you have your own things" other than to share them.

Anyhow, the point of all of this was that the bourgeois system isn't just a fancy word communists use in debates. It's so real and vast that even the most self-proclaimed communist might actually be very bourgeois in his actions without even knowing it himself.

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It's so real and vast that even the most self-proclaimed communist might actually be very bourgeois in his actions without even knowing it himself.

So I don't know who I am? lol...I'd be in a hospital if that was the case. Fontis, I gotta give you credit to that one. Arrogance, HAH! Do you know it's definition? Apparently only YOU know the true meaning of reality...since I don't even know what the hell I am. I forever bow to your Swedish wishes.

If you can proclaim that I'm not a Communist....then I can proclaim that you are a FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER! We both have the authority to make outrageous irrelevant claims because we're both stubborn dicks!

lol...grow up Fontis.

sigh, I wasn't referring to you, I was referring to people in general.

Being class-conscious doesn't mean that you "understand" how it looks, being class-conscious also means that you're able to analyse and value every choice you make carefully in a class-conscious way.

Even I have been scared by the "bourgeois tendencies" I've shown in moments where I've thought I "knew" more. One needs to remain humble and full of self-criticism

Anyhow, you're not going to change my opinion, so lets leave it here before either of us (or both) end up banned.

For someone who has Soviet in his name, you have absolute faith in the current system. Don't look to mainstream university professors as the absolute truth. Remember the majority of German professors easily took up and taught nazi doctrines in order to maintian their priviliged lives.

Remember the beourgeious ruling class owns the mass media, they will publish and promote the works of professors and researchers who agree with their view of the world. Whereas pro communist professors will never be heard. Professor Grover Furr of Montclair State University http://www.chss.montclair.edu/english/furr/ would be labeled a "Stalin apologists" by most, what major publishing company will publish his findings? He will get no funding, no speaking tours, will never appear on tv.

Let's look at the one of the biggest anti-stalinists, George Orwell. The mass media love Orwell because he supposedly criticizes communism from the left. His book Animal Farm, a criticims of totalitarian Stalism with farm animals, but Orwell actually wrote an introduction that warned it's not much different in "Free" England. That is the suppression of unpopular ideas can be suppressed without the State's involvement. Guess what? That introduction was never publsihed along with copies of Animal Farm. It was suppressed for 30 years! Read Chomsky's short interview on this:
http://www.chomsky.info/interviews/20051207.htm

I don't agree with Chomsky politically, but he knows how the mass media works.

Don't even believe there's academic freedom, just look at the witchhunt on Professor Ward Churchill.

Since the thread started becasue of a Wikkipedia article, wiki is heavily anticommunist. Wiki can be edited by anyone, but since the majority of ppl with internet access are from the 1st world, the majority are pro-capitalists. They can easiy cite sources because like I explained above, the mass media is heavily bias.

Merged into one post.

Merged into one post.

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THE PROFESSOR FEELS THAT TRADITIONAL NARRATIVES ARE BIASED SINCE THEY WERE FORGED PRIOR TO THE END OF THE CONFLICT. He thus feels the U.S. was the primary antagonist in the Cold War conflict. You telling me this is bastardizing history? I'm telling you its REWRITING HISTORY TO MAKE IT CORRECT.

I was not talking about who was the mass antagonist of the cold war conflict, but rather about the Western Academia's treatment on how individual Socialist systems worked domestically...

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What the hell makes you think these people were using common sense?? They were scared of their government!

What an easy answer.

So, the Iranians under the Shah, the Indians under the British, the Cubans under Bautista, the Afghans under the DRA and the infamous OSCARs (modeled after the Stasi) weren't scared of their respective governments?

I can tell you that in British India, if you had a decent looking daughter / wife / sister- you'd better be crap scared!! Especially if you lived under Reginald Dyer, Robert Clive etc. This went on till the early 40s. Yet- a significant # of people still picked up Arisaka rifle from Tokyo and went up against the establishment. This was done earlier at a mass level as early as 1857. Those are the hallmarks of brutality. People didn't revolt against the British because of their "ethnicity" (as most conventional sources claim) but rather against their ruling methods.

The same wasn't seen in the GDR. Race & ethnicity hardly play as issues here. Yugoslavia & Albania withdrew from the Warsaw Pact but wasn't attacked or mercilessly brutalized, so it's not like the Soviet Union or anybody else "controlled" the GDR either.

And speaking of Russia, it's not like the Czar's loyalists were handing over cotton candy to the Red Army or to peasents either...yet, people joined Lenin in droves. To a point of extending to soldiers themselves...and the Czar most certainly ruled using fear and a large band of enforcers...

Erich Honicker most certainly wasn't a paranoid Machavellian. And neither was he an isolationist. His economic & trading base was very diverse. And he pioneered many aspects of Socialism- all of which contributed towards the GDR having a much higher income than even many parts of W. Europe like Greece, Italy & France.

The FRG had a bigger revenue base, but they were donor members to white collar bandit collectives such as the IMF / WB. Whereas the GDR didn't earn revenue that way. Still- they beat blatantly commercialized capitalist locales in their own game- material standard of living & household income levels (do a 1970s study on UN archives) in the GDR were in the top 25.

That's the difference between a Socialist economy and a Socialist democracy. The way they collect, earn and multiply their their revenue. The latter doesn't hesitate to engage in blatantly capitalistic maneuvers globally (fleecing 3rd world economies & industries) for sake of self revenue generation. The former doesn't sink to such lows when dealing with economies not as "sophisticated" or as "industrialized" as theirs...that's what set the GDR & the FRG apart.

And the GDR was also the largest contributing partner to many vital industrialization progs of Socialist Republics like the DPRK & even West and S. Asia. The DPRK did cash business w/ the GDR. Neither encroached on one another or on others- unlike the capitalist "first world" economies of today...

But the maintenance of a non exploitative system at a global level meant that local East Germans had to endure more work. But for good living conditions, enough to be on the world's top 25. The wall was a solution to prevent lazy SOBs who benefitted from a solid PDS from emigrating just for the sake of petty personal gains. The PDS won't sustain itself & the DDR PDS had to perform if it was listed in the top 25 in the world according to the UN...(in terms of standard of living).

The Stasi was introduced into this issue because abandoning the PDS after benefiting from it amounted to PDS theft, which was a criminal issue as far as GDR laws went. Which was completely rational.

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Not true and you know it. Psh...what a bunch of hogwash. Why would people run towards guns?

You mean to say the East German army could gun down a million + folks and yet retain their legitimacy? That model was tried countlessly in the world in the 20th century and repeatedly failed.

Face it- if enough people are pissed at the establishment, it will overturn & collapse. It's just a matter of when, and this holds true especially in Socialist locales since social consience amongst folks is significantly greater in Socialist locales than their capitalist counterparts.

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The U.S. is doing an EXCELLENT job at it my friend.

I can see how Iraq & Afghanistan are shaping up...the U$ can't even extend its grip outside the "green zone" in Iraq and outside Karzai's presidential palace in Afghanistan. And I surely saw the fate of South Vietnam.

Standards of living showed a steady rise in the GDR till the 80s. You don't see rising living standards and a dissatisfied population coexisting side by side....as Iraq & Afghanistan shows...

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What the hell is a global institute?

An institute that has global research outreach to Universities all around the world. And an institute that has enough resources & connectivity to draw from a diverse talent pool worldwide...

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How many books did you check? Certainly not the hundreds of thousands written by hundreds of thousands of people with hundreds of thousands of opposing viewpoints....Please. You guys read one thing and think everyone agrees to it. Its you're nature...you're Socialists. I'm one to, but I'm smart enough to realize that we don't live in a socialist world.

Ok. Find me ONE publication, journal, or even ANY professor's notes, that thoroughly discusses the PDS, the PSU & the PSE. Or alternatively, find me ANY material written by a prof on how a PDS worked for ANY Socialist locale (I suggest Estonia SSR & SFRY since they're the most widely researched).

Why don't you ask ANY of YOUR profs to differentiate between a PSU & a PSE. It's the simplest way of avoiding a "is not, is too" argument, don't you think?

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because from what I'm aware of...kids can speak before Kindergarten

I think comrade Fontis was referring to the thought process and in shaping a child's thought process into a linear way- the academic institutions in the West (at least the U$) do a "terrific" job.

Look at all those stupid bullcrap DARE sessions. How much $$$ is spent on that crap and in what way do programmes like DARE improve a child's intellectual or physical or emotional or spiritual aptitude?

Those DARE sessions are only intended to mould the youth into a pattern of thinking- that there's some invisible devil from hell preying on the innocence of all those poor young boys and girls...and that the local police is there as a true protector of citizens' from this invisible evil from hell

And DARE is integrated into EVERY single American schooling programme...and some DARE lectures encourage young children to RAT OUT THEIR PARENTS. The only other system where kids were encouraged to do the same was in Saloth Sar's (Pol Pot) Cambodia. WHAT a colossal waste of money for institutional stupification...

You can have the kids learn a martial art, in that time, for all I care...

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Don't look to mainstream university professors as the absolute truth. Remember the majority of German professors easily took up and taught nazi doctrines in order to maintian their priviliged lives.

Lol...ok kid. I'm not in Germany to begin with. Professors don't live very privileged lives either. I hope to be one, one day....and they don't make a great living. I want to do it because I love education.

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Remember the beourgeious ruling class owns the mass media,

But not the education system. Everyone on this forum thinks Western Media = Western Education. Thats about as dumb as believing the Western media.

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I was not talking about who was the mass antagonist of the cold war conflict

Oh shut up, you were asking for a "neutral objective" view which....though you may not realize it...means a SUBJECTIVE VIEW THAT AGREES WITH YOUR OPINION. Everyone seems to think that their personal opinion is objective and thus right. Grow up.

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What an easy answer.

What a simple truth.

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So, the Iranians under the Shah, the Indians under the British, the Cubans under Bautista, the Afghans under the DRA and the infamous OSCARs (modeled after the Stasi) weren't scared of their respective governments?

They were scared too! Why does someone HAVE to be under capitalism to be scared? Why is it absurd for you if people are scared of a socialist system? Because you don't understand why? Thats a stupid fragging reason to justify your theory.

Authoritarianism can come in many forms, INCLUDING SOCIALISM. Bitch about how I'm an idiot on this all you want, doesn't change the fact that people in the Eastern Bloc feared their government.

This is not the same in Cuba though!

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You mean to say the East German army could gun down a million + folks and yet retain their legitimacy?

The reasons why they didn't overrun the wall is the same reason Americans don't unite and rise up against the capitalists. First, no one is going to have the balls to start it....second, it requires someone to abandon their life...which is a huge decision...and most people would rather live scared then take a walk into the unknown.

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Face it- if enough people are pissed at the establishment, it will overturn & collapse.

No you face it....the system was totalitarian and frightful.

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I can see how Iraq & Afghanistan are shaping up

Nice red herring.

Here was your original statement:

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Superpowers & the military can't sustain systems without popular support.

The United States is sustaining it's system without popular support. The electoral college destroys any real power for the masses and thus makes the 'elected' government illegitimate. So my statement is correct. The US is sustaining their system despite popular support. I said nothing about the stupid f-ing war.

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Find me ONE publication, journal, or even ANY professor's notes, that thoroughly discusses the PDS, the PSU & the PSE

I gave you one. Raymond Stokes' Constructing Socialism.

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Look at all those stupid bullcrap DARE sessions.

Dare actually is good for keeping kids away from hard drugs like heroin and meth...I don't see whats wrong with it. And they never taught me about some devil preying upon innocence. Where the hell are you guys from? Move to california.

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The United States is sustaining it's system without popular support. The electoral college destroys any real power for the masses and thus makes the 'elected' government illegitimate. So my statement is correct. The US is sustaining their system despite popular support. I said nothing about the stupid f-ing war.

The US is SUSTAINING Iraq & Afghanistan? Hardly. Either ways, you most certainly NEVER saw anything close to the kind of the public animosity against the ruling establishment in the GDR until the mid / late 80s collapse.

And standards of living are dwindling in US run Afghanistan & Iraq to a point where infant mortality shot up 130% in the latter after the occupation years. Standards of living has declined drastically in US run Iraq & Afghanistan.

Whereas in GDR- even after the construction of the wall- you saw the contrary. Rising living standards & public animosity against the system are contradictions. If there's public animosity, there's dwindling living standards (because the population is being fleeced to profit X, Y Z...). If there's rising living standards, there's no animosity against the system.

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The United States is sustaining it's system without popular support.

That's because there's no real alternative to the system visible in the North / Central American continent that could impact domestic opinions in the U$. Be it Canada or Mexico. The same wasn't true in East Germany- where you had the West Germany (a drastically diff. system) sitting pretty next door. And the East German state still endured and surged till the late 80s, whether you like it or not.

The wall was never designed to withstand the collective desires of the East German nation but was merely designed to prevent a few PDS thieves from emigrating for petty gains. I don't think even the dumbest East German would bank his / her hope on nation building on a piece of concrete lol.

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I gave you one. Raymond Stokes' Constructing Socialism.

Can you give me quotations from select phrases that discusses the PDS, PSU and PSE? If it's not too much trouble...

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No you face it....the system was totalitarian and frightful.

Communism is often referred to the dictatorship of the proletariat so obviously it isin't too compatible with party politics & "democracy" in a Western sense.

And the regimes of Monarchic Iran, Monarchic Egypt, British India, South Vietnam & Pre Castro Cuba weren't frightful?

You mean to say the Stasi were more frightful than the FBI / LAPD (or NYPD)? The Stasi collected detailed data on 33% of its citizens in the lower millions, whereas the FBI and almost every police department in the US has access to records of almost 100% of its citizens- through accessing Social security & chxsystems records.

And nobody had to pass in a pee test as an employment prerequisite in East Germany either lol. For all practical purposes, I don't see how the East Germans had it any worse than the Americans.

Passing a piss for a test for EMPLOYMENT (what impact does one's urine have on his/ her potential in the job market?) The police having detailed tabs on 100% of its citizenry and permanent residents nearly. To a degree that the U$ hosts the world's total prisoner population. All that seems more frightful than East Germany.

The Western academia is damned good at taking pretty mundane and normal functioning of a society and turning it into something vile & infernal. Heh, this trend was around ever since the 1500s, which is what gave colonization & mercantilism legitimacy in the eyes of the European masses.

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Dare actually is good for keeping kids away from hard drugs like heroin and meth...

If your over bloated system actually gave people solid, concrete info on drugs & their uses, there wouldn't be need for programmes like DARE. If your system took it a bit easier on uber nazi prohibitionist dictates and not force other countries to do the same w/ softer substances, then the hard substances use automatically drops.

It was observed here in India, and also in Holland, which is why the former has done a partial rollback to its pre 1989 stance whereas the latter...well, you know, I'm sure.

And DARE- whether it's in New York or California- teaches young kids to rat on their parents. So that the parents can be taken away and thrown in a dingy jail cell along with rapists & that the kids can have their lives ruined for good and grow up w/o proper guidance of a family

And MAMMOTH resources are spent on such meaningless initiatives. The time & money invested into such meaningless conservative prohibitionist publicity stunts can actually be diverted into improving the quality of schooling- which the US public schooling system DRASTICALLY needed ever since its inception, pretty much.

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and most people would rather live scared then take a walk into the unknown.

East Germans? Scared??? Even if you look into the 70s, most of the East German working population were still in their teens & early 20s during WWII, where they had to endure Hitler's army, Red Army and the British Army personally. Not to mention all the fierce fighting that followed all throughout. The Germans have a strong martial culture, and this was built upon by the East German system and I highly doubt you can ever classify them as "scared."

If they could face WWII, they can most certainly face an oppressive East German regime. And they did so in the late 80s. That's when mass dissatisfaction w/ the system became imminent.

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Where the hell are you guys from? Move to california.

Cali was great, but one can only take blatant capitalism for so long

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The US is SUSTAINING Iraq & Afghanistan?

Dude how thick headed are you? THE AMERICAN SYSTEM NOT THE IRAQ OR AFGHAN ONE. JESUS CHRIST.

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That's because there's no real alternative to the system visible in the North / Central American continent that could impact domestic opinions in the U$. Be it Canada or Mexico. The same wasn't true in East Germany- where you had the West Germany (a drastically diff. system) sitting pretty next door. And the East German state still endured and surged till the late 80s, whether you like it or not.

What is your point? That has nothing to do with sustaining the system.

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Can you give me quotations from select phrases that discusses the PDS, PSU and PSE? If it's not too much trouble...

It is too much trouble, I'm at work and the book is in my library at home. Why don't you look for yourself? You're the one thats searching for answers.

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Communism is often referred to the dictatorship of the proletariat so obviously it isin't too compatible with party politics & "democracy" in a Western sense.

That has nothing to do with my statement, which was that people were frightened of their government.

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And the regimes of Monarchic Iran, Monarchic Egypt, British India, South Vietnam & Pre Castro Cuba weren't frightful?

I never said that those systems weren't frightful. But the ends don't justify the means. Just because the previous system was frightful doesn't mean the new one can't be MORE frightful.....Just ask East Germans. Any...from ANY CLASS. The ones that favored the system were usually receiving benefits from it that the majority was not.

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You mean to say the Stasi were more frightful than the FBI / LAPD (or NYPD)?

SHIT YES! How dare you insinuate otherwise! The LAPD and NYPD have order....a clearly defined system of procedure that can be read and viewed by ANYONE. The Stasi never had any coordinated procedure....or at least not one that anyone could understand. The NYPD never arrests you by driving up in a black van then pushing you inside. And don't call me dramatic...there are actual photos.

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And nobody had to pass in a pee test as an employment prerequisite in East Germany either lol.

Oh wow...you named one good thing. Now you can be happy knowing that ur allowed to be high. Hail Ulbricht!

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The police having detailed tabs on 100% of its citizenry and permanent residents nearly. To a degree that the U$ hosts the world's total prisoner population.

You're misguided if you think the Stasi didn't have MORE DETAILED records of MORE of its citizens and even Party members and high council officials. Have you ever read "The File"? Its about an East German who applied to see his Stasi file after the fall of the wall. It was so detailed on his everyday life that he hardly remembers anything that is stated in the file. Right down to the gritty detail, what clothes he wore, what nuances he said. All of it is 100% non-fiction also.

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The Western academia is damned good at taking pretty mundane and normal functioning of a society and turning it into something vile & infernal.

Apparently so are you.

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If your system took it a bit easier on uber nazi prohibitionist dictates

Uhh...we don't have uber nazi prohibitionists dictates...We even have Cannabis Clubs in California like Amsterdam. So why don't you stop talking out of your butt.

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And DARE- whether it's in New York or California- teaches young kids to rat on their parents

lol wtf are you talking about. Prove it.

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East Germans? Scared??? Even if you look into the 70s, most of the East German working population were still in their teens & early 20s during WWII, where they had to endure Hitler's army, Red Army and the British Army personally.

yes...scared. Shocking to understand reality isn't it. Why don't you read a friggin book.

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Cali was great, but one can only take blatant capitalism for so long

When thinking about the fact that we're the most liberal, quasi socialist, welfare state in the Union....consider yourself lucky you visited our State and no where else.

I'm going to make a self post in response to all my posts above.

I know that by reading everything I'm saying it can seem as though I am defending America or defending Capitalism in favor over a less humanitarian socialism. This is not the case at all. I just feel its stupid to sit back and let you guys talk about non sense (like California being blatant capitalism, and Western Academia being this conglomerated pile of bullshit). It would be like a teacher in a kindergarten class just letting kids run around naked. I'm not trying to change any of your guys' viewpoints...I'm trying to make you guys check yourselves because arrogance flies pretty easy on this website. It's very easy to just say something and think that you're right even though in reality you don't know wtf ur talking about when you get into the 'debate it' mode.

I'm not defending America, or its system...I'm defending you guys from ignorance about its system, its academics, and its people.

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I'm not defending America, or its system...I'm defending you guys from ignorance about its system, its academics, and its people.

The system and the academia is over ridden w/ arrogance & ignorance. But I most certainly never dragged the American people into the pit.

Many Americans acquire their first hand knowledge through backpacking & through direct research. Some have come to like it in "Semi Socialist" locales whereas others haven't. In the 70s, for example- and even today- it's not uncommon for some American tourists to ditch their passports in the Ganges & integrate into a rural family.

Americans are most certainly as cleaver & rational as any other human on earth but the American system & its mainstream academia for the most part is overwhelmed w/ ignorance. But thankfully, thanks to the advent of air travel, the internet, travelogues (judge for yourself)- Americans aren't bound to the system...

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I know that by reading everything I'm saying it can seem as though I am defending America or defending Capitalism in favor over a less humanitarian socialism.

I don't think me or anybody else said that...all we were suggesting is perhaps that Western mainstream academia and its official political literature don't give a solid explanation on how Socialist systems functioned.

To illustrate, all I requested was for either:

A text detailing what a PDS is & what are PSUs and PSEs and how they function.

What's the flaw of operating at a point where the lowest point of the MC an the highest point of the MR curves intersect (if you wanna get technical). How do the MR & MC costs work out for a PSU? A PSE?

Or find me a detailed read on ONE PDS system of ANY Socialist economy out there? Find me one on the GDR, or on Mao's China...ANYTHING.

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I just feel its stupid to sit back and let you guys talk about non sense (like California being blatant capitalism, and Western Academia being this conglomerated pile of bullshit).

Nobody accused California or its inhabitants of anything- in this thread at least.

We were assessing the objective credentials of the Western Academia when dealing w/ Socialist economies such as the Mao's PRC, Nehruvian India, Honicker's GDR, Stalin's USSR, Josip Tito's Yugoslavia etc., etc...

Speaking of which, in my childhood days, our mainstream academia was pretty anti US. Especially after the 1971 Bangladesh war. That still didn't prevent me from going there first hand, even if it certainly took an ass year to accomplish.

Don't go by official readings, comrade. They're most, if not always, riddled w/ erroneous assumptions.

To highlight, all I asked for was a simple description of a PDS, PSU & PSE- the BUILDING BLOCK or a working model of ANY Socialist economy (so don't bother telling me "but alas we didn't live in true Socialist societies"- which is why I restricted the talk to economies).

Hey comrade- I'm sorry, I don't mean to sound rude, but in my 6+ years of living in the U$, I have yet to come across such a text, journal, or publication or even a page of classroom notes. I'm hoping you'll prove me wrong & show an example... w/ a quote & name of author / professor.

Hey man, I looked pretty thoroughly. For 6+ years. Both in PG Univ & during my commission agent days. It might come as a shocker to you, but when I did mandatory community service (in Crenshaw)- by doing free tutoring / some teacher training (our local UG college had a good rep thankfully), most of the teachers at the public school level detest Socialism as an economic model.

Even if their development index in the U$ is MUCH less than that of a VC agent doing commission biz. Yet they supported their prevailing system over one which would give them a development index at par w/an engineer. And these are contingents of society, mind it- who are supposed to be passing on values & aptitude to "young minds." That's mainstream US academia for you.

Many US people are some of the most brilliant I've met. And 100000000x smarter & more industrious than I can ever become in this lifetime. But they acquire their skill outside the restrictive & often stupifying walls of the mainstream academia...

So, this is clearly not a post directed against you or against Southern California or against anybody else. It's simply assessing the credentials of mainstream academia in the West in deciphering non capitalist locales like Mao's China (the main purpose of this thread- I believe), Honicker's DDR (another example), Nehruvian India (yet another)...and so on and so forth.

But again, how can you expect solid and concrete academic analysis on a Socialist locale to come out of a mainstream academic circle, that doesn't even bother mentioning what a PDS is, leave alone how it functioned (as opposed to the +MR -MC curve), leave alone details such as PSUs & PSEs, which chiefly constituted it.

Seriously comrade, if you understood how a PDS worked & your economy maintained by PSEs & PSUs (vs corporates & MNCs), or better yet lived in such a locale yourself or visited a few yourself- you'd see GDR, Mao's China, the DPRK etc., much differently, even if you couldn't travel to them.

But please comrade, dont take it personal...this is only an internet forum for exchanging ideas & learning new stuffs- not some sort of an intergalactic militaristic empire putting us on tribunal lol...

Who do you think funds & maintains most of your "ivy league" institutions Harvard / Princeton / Yale / Oxford etc., survives as profitable entities because of its:A. Corporate networking B. Educational Public Fund. What do you think it is?

All right, sorry guys, I'm loving this dramatic debate, but you've both strayed outrageously beyond this thread's original topic.

Also UCSBSoviet, you're ad-homing everywhere bro.*Clichéd frowny face.*

Just a heads up.

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Also UCSBSoviet, you're ad-homing everywhere bro.

To each his own.

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The system and the academia is over ridden w/ arrogance & ignorance.

That's an opinion not a fact. If you're so convinced of it, why don't you shed some proof on it? Some real proof from a REAL American University.

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The system and the academia is over ridden w/ arrogance & ignorance.

That's an opinion not a fact. If you're so convinced of it, why don't you shed some proof on it? Some real proof from a REAL American University.

I have never seen such a comedically transparent attitude! Thanx for the laffs!

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Some real proof from a REAL American University.

Perhaps I should have replaced "from" with "about"

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That's an opinion not a fact. If you're so convinced of it, why don't you shed some proof on it? Some real proof from a REAL American University.

Proof? Well, why don't you post up ANY reading from the mainstream academia which outlines ANY Socialist models in at least some detail- by discussing the PDS, PSU & PSE.

Having said that, I've yet to see concrete analysis that would confirm Mao as a mass murderer.

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Well, why don't you post up ANY reading from the mainstream academia which outlines ANY Socialist models in at least some detail

Oh lets just dance around and avoid the sources I've already given you why don't we?

Raymond Stokes - Constructing Socialism

Timothy Ash - The File

A History of the Soviet Union - Peter Kenez

History of divided Germany - Mary Fullbrook


ALL of which accept the post-revisionist perspective on the Cold War...which states that the U.S. was the primary antagonist and thus American diplomacy was the root cause of conflict and was the main contributor towards the downfall of Communism. It also REAFFIRMS that the USSR had little impact on the outcome of the Cold War, and it was NOT socialism that led to the fall of the USSR.

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All right, sorry guys, I'm loving this dramatic debate, but you've both strayed outrageously beyond this thread's original topic.

Well- I'm glad we could entertain a comrade for a few minutes. Did we do better than the local cable TV company lol?

Yeah, it does seem like the topic outrageously strayed like an Iraqi SCUD, now that I look at it, but alas, it's one of those risks you run when you do a parallel example. And I'm not the best at compiling my thoughts in English...

Comrade, seriously- I only wanted to use other parallel examples where mainstream academic analysis of events & systems (especially opposing ones) were seriously flawed.

Heh, at least you got entertained through all this, though. I really do hope you haven't been subject to 1 channel state TV for too long yet lol...

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ALL of which accept the post-revisionist perspective on the Cold War...

We're not talking about the Cold War comrade, but more so about individual Socialist economic models...and lastly... cold war =/= Socialism...that's just the antagonism between 2 diametrically opposed systems.

A cold war analysis doesn't exactly extend to explaining in detail how individual Socialist models ran...now THAT type of analysis is what would give you a clearer picture on how such systems ran (Mao's PRC, GDR etc).

Understanding Socialism & Socialist models using events such as the Cold War is like trying to understand India using the 1971 Bangladesh war...

I am aware you gave me a list of books, but since I don't have them at the moment, can you please give me a quotation that would explain a PDS, PSU and PSE from either of those books???

I do realize we landed up in Vladivostok even if our destination was Los Angeles, so to tie it all together- what's your sources' take on Mao's China???

Would you just shut up and read the damn books. That is their narrative basis..meaning they don't favor the U.S.'s traditional narrative formulated during the Cold War. Let me spell it out for you:

IN YOUR WORDS, THEY ARE OBJECTIVE AND 'NEUTRAL'....if there is such a thing.

Constructing socialism is about the dynamics of the Socialist model and how its procedure did not lead to failure, but rather the relations and pressures between the East and West. In other words....IT DEFENDS SOCIALISM.

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cold war =/= Socialism...that's just the antagonism between 2 diametrically opposed systems.

Very good, I already explained that earlier.

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A cold war analysis doesn't exactly extend to explaining in detail how individual Socialist models ran.

The books I listed do. Read them.

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Understanding Socialism & Socialist models using events such as the Cold War

I never said to do that. I was pointing out a narrative. Do you know what a narrative is? Its a general storyline of history which everyone agrees on. Such as, The Nazi's committed the holocaust in an effort to wipe out the Jews. THAT is a narrative. Narratives are used to determine ideological intent, and philosophical perspective of the author. So whether or not you think its important that they have an opinion on the Cold War, it has a MAJOR effect on the way they approach studying the Socialist mode of production.

God some of you people think you just know everything without even TRYING to open a damn book.