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USSR 2.0

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Soviet cogitations: 981
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 08 Aug 2011, 22:59
Ideology: Other Leftist
Komsomol
Post 10 Jul 2016, 21:03
What do you think about the "USSR 2.0" project Essence of Time, @Soviet78?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essence_of_Time_(movement)
Soviet cogitations: 64
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 04 Jun 2015, 20:48
Pioneer
Post 19 Jul 2016, 14:58
I am also quite interested in the movement, unfortunately there is not much information about it in English.
User avatar
Soviet cogitations: 4381
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 07 Oct 2004, 22:04
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Resident Soviet
Post 20 Jul 2016, 22:23
Hey guys, sorry for the late response. I've been observing EoT since its inception, and even before that have enjoyed the debates Kurginyan held against the Russian liberal interpretation of history and politics. Before he got involved in doing that, since the very beginning of the post-Soviet period actually, he stepped out in favor of the restoration of the Soviet Union.

With regard to his movement, it's difficult to define it ideologically; it is definitely leftist, and possibly even communist in the sense that communism intends to liberate humanity from labor to pursue their higher creative potential. Like pretty much all Russian leftist forces, it is socially conservative, which might be an unpleasant fact for Western leftists.

At the same time, EoT not Marxist, and while it respects Marx and Lenin, it does not derive its ideology from their ideas or methodology of thought and logic. Its precise ideology is actually very difficult to pin down, even for the members of the movement themselves, as I've found out in personal discussions with a couple with them.

Essentially comprised mostly of intelligent young people whose minds Kurginyan opened to socialism and the great history of the Soviet Union, EoT seems to me like a romantically minded, symbology driven movement; to them, Kurginyan not really an idol to be worshiped (liked the joke semi-cults of Bob Avakian and the like), but it's hard to imagine the movement without him, at this moment anyway.

At the same time, while their ideology may be wishy-washy, that doesn't mean that Kurginyan's analysis of the situation in Russia and around the world is wrong. There have been countless times when I have turned to him to explain some of the very extreme and grotesque contradictions seen in today's Russia; his obvious contacts with sections of the old Soviet and current Russian political elite certainly don't hurt, nor does his long-time experience as a political and geopolitical analyst.

Having said that, there are a few questions among Russian leftists regarding Kurginyan's true purpose or goal. Some have gone so far as to speculate that his role is that of a spoiler, in the non-traditional sense. His goal, so the logic goes, is to collect all the most passionate and intelligent young leftists, and then to lead them aimlessly through the political woods until they grow disenchanted and become apolitical. This has been the argument some in the KPRF, the Communists of Russia and others have used, since Kurginyan has regularly launched unfounded attacks against them. And some of them really are unfounded. Recently, for instance, he implied that Zyuganov and the State Department were basically in league against Putin and United Russia, providing sources that were soon proven to be false, but not apologizing after the fact.

As the same time, since the rise of 'polit-technology' in Russia, which Putin ally Vladislav Surkov, the so-called grey cardinal of the Kremlin, has used repeatedly and to great effect, the Russian Left in general has been left disorganized, confused and paranoid regarding who is a Kremlin stooge and who is genuinely independent. After all, EoT members may suggest, the KPRF itself can be described as a spoiler, designed to capture social protest energy and lead it nowhere as United Russia continues to make all the decisions in domestic politics with its 50%+1 majority in parliament.

In conclusion, I think that EoT is a major Leftist platform in contemporary Russia, probably concentrating even more vibrant social energy than the KPRF. Having said that, the organization is not perfect, and to me, making baseless accusations against the only parliamentary force currently capable of providing Russia with any sort of future apart from the ruling United Russia Party is highly inappropriate, to say the least.
"The thing about capitalism is that it sounds awful on paper and is horrendous in practice. Communism sounds wonderful on paper and when it was put into practice it was done pretty well for what they had to work with." -MiG
Soviet cogitations: 12389
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 18 Apr 2010, 04:44
Ideology: None
Philosophized
Post 20 Jul 2016, 22:48
The suspicion regarding the EoT is far from proven. I'd like to believe otherwise, but the belief does have a basis in fact. After all, the SED party allowed other organizations in DDR for that very same purpose: Collecting "anti-social energy" under a few convenient groupings, nullifying it, and occasionally lopping off the heads of a few "ringleaders" to keep them all in check.
Miss Strangelove: "You feed giants laxatives so goblins can mine their poop before the gnomes get to it."
Loz
[+-]
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Soviet cogitations: 11879
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 06 Dec 2009, 23:17
Philosophized
Post 21 Jul 2016, 14:41
If you somehow managed to re-unite the USSR as it was in 1986, all the 16 republics, it would still be the worst and most backwards place in Europe. Only the Baltics, Belarus and maybe Russia and Kazakhstan resemble a somewhat normal society, the rest is just horrible.
Soviet cogitations: 64
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 04 Jun 2015, 20:48
Pioneer
Post 26 Jul 2016, 00:35
You mentioned that they were socially conservative, which seems to me as a euphemism for being anti-gay. Could you elaborate on their stance on the gay community? I certainly like that they have a unit in Donbass as most communist parties only seems interested in politics and not really fighting imperialism.
Soviet cogitations: 12389
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 18 Apr 2010, 04:44
Ideology: None
Philosophized
Post 26 Jul 2016, 03:17
sparkyyy wrote:
You mentioned that they were socially conservative, which seems to me as a euphemism for being anti-gay. Could you elaborate on their stance on the gay community? I certainly like that they have a unit in Donbass as most communist parties only seems interested in politics and not really fighting imperialism.


Homosexuality is the bete noire of conservative movements around the world, even traditional Stalinism.

Read your New Testament. Paul violently hated gays, even more than he hated women, and that hatred struck a chord with some of the more traditional Roman attitudes toward homosexuals. It's one of the principal residual scars left behind by Christianity.
Miss Strangelove: "You feed giants laxatives so goblins can mine their poop before the gnomes get to it."
User avatar
Soviet cogitations: 4381
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 07 Oct 2004, 22:04
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Resident Soviet
Post 26 Jul 2016, 12:11
Wow, never really thought about contemporary Russian politics like that of the SED et al. Comrade Gulper, but will definitely have it in the back of my mind from now on!

Loz, it would be backward, but so were the remnants of imperial Russia in the 1920s. In fact many of the problems (deindustrialization, degradation of education, homelessness/childhood poverty, etc.) are exactly the issues the Bolsheviks inherited, and then painstakingly worked to solve. The fact that the country has a rich history of experience solving exactly the same problems it faces now is what makes our present situation under capitalism so intolerable.

Sparkyyy, yes, like most Russian Left groups, they could be classified as 'anti-gay', but not in the aimless 'burn them at the stake' sense. Their biggest concern, or so they say, is the social impact of imparting homosexual norms to children at a young age, including in schools (via the 'my two mommies/daddies' explanations in many European countries) and via gay adoption. They are also concerned with the issue being used as a political tool (via gay pride parades, repeated use of the issue to try to change socio-cultural norms, etc). While not seeking to criminalize homosexuality as a whole, they consider, at least according to the articles below, that it is a mental illness. For the record, I do not support the latter characterization.

https://gazeta.eot.su/article/gomoseksu ... stanovkami

https://gazeta.eot.su/article/otnosheni ... lyh-brakov
"The thing about capitalism is that it sounds awful on paper and is horrendous in practice. Communism sounds wonderful on paper and when it was put into practice it was done pretty well for what they had to work with." -MiG
Loz
[+-]
User avatar
Soviet cogitations: 11879
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 06 Dec 2009, 23:17
Philosophized
Post 26 Jul 2016, 23:08
Quote:
Loz, it would be backward, but so were the remnants of imperial Russia in the 1920s. In fact many of the problems (deindustrialization, degradation of education, homelessness/childhood poverty, etc.) are exactly the issues the Bolsheviks inherited, and then painstakingly worked to solve. The fact that the country has a rich history of experience solving exactly the same problems it faces now is what makes our present situation under capitalism so intolerable.

Even post-Stalin Russia ( not to mention before, if you read travel reports from the 30s foreigners are always surprised with the amounts of beggars on the streets of Moscow ) had lot of lumpen bydlo and besprizorniki.
Everyday life for the average Russian, it seems to me, was better in let's say 2012 ( before the Crimea happenings and all ) than in the 80s or 70s.
Even someone making an average wage can shop for products without standing in line and have a full fridge, drive a car, buy a computer and even go to Turkey or something once a year. I don't know about education and healthcare but i doubt the USSR was a world champion in either.
Besides, the USSR was the poorest and most backwards of all the socialist countries save for Romania and Albania by the 80s.
Economy wise ( ignoring certain societal aspects ) and generally speaking nowadays' Russia would be ahead of or on the level of the poorest EU members.
Soviet cogitations: 64
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 04 Jun 2015, 20:48
Pioneer
Post 27 Jul 2016, 16:53
soviet78 wrote:
Sparkyyy, yes, like most Russian Left groups, they could be classified as 'anti-gay', but not in the aimless 'burn them at the stake' sense. Their biggest concern, or so they say, is the social impact of imparting homosexual norms to children at a young age, including in schools (via the 'my two mommies/daddies' explanations in many European countries) and via gay adoption. They are also concerned with the issue being used as a political tool (via gay pride parades, repeated use of the issue to try to change socio-cultural norms, etc). While not seeking to criminalize homosexuality as a whole, they consider, at least according to the articles below, that it is a mental illness. For the record, I do not support the latter characterization.

https://gazeta.eot.su/article/gomoseksu ... stanovkami

https://gazeta.eot.su/article/otnosheni ... lyh-brakov

These are just excuses used since the 80s by the Western reactionaries. I am relatively young and from Europe and I was never forced to listen to 'gay propaganda'. I would worry more about my children being exposed to and normalize the brutalities against gays (and others?) in the RF.

Loz wrote:
Even post-Stalin Russia ( not to mention before, if you read travel reports from the 30s foreigners are always surprised with the amounts of beggars on the streets of Moscow ) had lot of lumpen bydlo and besprizorniki.
Everyday life for the average Russian, it seems to me, was better in let's say 2012 ( before the Crimea happenings and all ) than in the 80s or 70s.
Even someone making an average wage can shop for products without standing in line and have a full fridge, drive a car, buy a computer and even go to Turkey or something once a year. I don't know about education and healthcare but i doubt the USSR was a world champion in either.
Besides, the USSR was the poorest and most backwards of all the socialist countries save for Romania and Albania by the 80s.
Economy wise ( ignoring certain societal aspects ) and generally speaking nowadays' Russia would be ahead of or on the level of the poorest EU members.

Why do you always post anti communist drivel? Average Russian having a car and going to Turkey at least once a year?
http://sputniknews.com/russia/20120405/172637815.html Most Russians have never been outside of Russia lol!
http://www.multpl.com/russia-real-gdp
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FDN-8L ... 64&list=WL
Russia has had pretty much no growth since the fall of the USSR. Health care was probably not of very high quality (I know that all socialist countries struggled with acquiring modern technology), though I doubt their hospitals looked like a lot of them look now.
http://uglich-jj.livejournal.com/62312.html
I also don't know why you mentioned education, I would say it is a common knowledge the education of the Eastern Bloc was the best in the world.

Comrade Gulper wrote:
Homosexuality is the bete noire of conservative movements around the world, even traditional Stalinism.

Read your New Testament. Paul violently hated gays, even more than he hated women, and that hatred struck a chord with some of the more traditional Roman attitudes toward homosexuals. It's one of the principal residual scars left behind by Christianity.

Is there any proof that Stalin himself hated gays? A lot of the so called traditional Stalinists are Christians, anti Semites and other reactionaries who go as far as to say that Stalin was a deeply religious Christian himself and that the religious repressions were done by the 'evil Jews'.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ne7qL0pbHF0
I view repressing religious institutions more 'Stalinist' than repressing gays. I myself admire Stalin and I would not persecute the first gay before I would persecute the last Christian/Muslim.
User avatar
Soviet cogitations: 4381
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 07 Oct 2004, 22:04
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Resident Soviet
Post 27 Jul 2016, 22:20
Sparkkky, I don't want to turn this into a 'gay rights in Russia & the USSR' thread, but will say this: as with all other identity politics-based groups, gays in Russia live in a variety of circumstances, which are based mostly on their social and economic standing, rather than strictly on their status as gays. Open and state-sponsored repression does not exist against them, unless you count the inability to marry, contrary to the endlessly repeated, overblown discussion about this in Western media. That part has to do with the fact that Western-oriented political liberals seem to have been most open in taking up the gay rights cause, essentially monopolizing the political side of the movement, and thus making the public's already negative opinion on homosexuality even worse.

What do I mean by 'no state-sponsored repression'? Well for one thing, being gay is not criminalized by the penal code. Moreover, there are numerous gay clubs (more in the big cities, and in the cultural and political capitals, naturally). There are (and always have been actually) numerous artists who are openly gay or assumed as such, and they do not face any repercussions for this. There are a few politicians who go out on TV and attack homosexuals, but this for the most part seems to me a repetition of the Republicans who used to do the same thing until recently, when it was revealed that most of the most visceral ones were homosexuals themselves. For the most part homosexuality just isn't a part of the social discourse, apart from occasionally being used by nationalists to attack Western values ('Gayropa', or childish antics suggesting Obama is married to a man, etc.). In other words, Russia is really something like a 'don't ask, don't tell' country.

Of course, I can imagine it being very difficult to be gay in a small village or dilapidated industrial town, where the social 'penalties' imposed by some homophobic vigilante can be very real. In the cities though, outright repression is very limited, and certainly doesn't come from authorities (again, with a few exceptions, mostly related to inaction by authorities). Personally, I am about 1000 times more concerned with the conditions for working people, including all the Central Asians being used and abused while building and maintaining housing, and the country's massive corruption problems, than gay rights in Russia. The former issue is way more discussed by Western media, but believe me, our crooked capitalist system is a far, far worse problem, to the point where it literally lowers the standard of living and reduces life expectancy.

...

With regard to Stalin, I'm not sure if he 'hated gays'. The same accusation has been made against him with regard to Jews, but I believe the company he kept (including among the Politburo) pretty decisively refuted that one. I think it was more an issue of his social conservatism in general, and his feeling that the liberal leftist values and ideas that gained steam in the early 1920s (free love, propaganda of a family-free lifestyle, homosexuality, etc) were potentially harmful to socialist construction, and to the Soviet people themselves. Say all you want about free love for example, but a single mother is going to have a pretty hard time raising her child(ren) without a man around.

As for some Christians' love of Stalin, it makes sense I guess, but not for the new reasons many of them peddle. He did revive the Church from a virtually underground existence, and even planned an ill-fated 'Orthodox alternative to Rome'. But he was not really a warrior against 'evil Jews', however some Christians and nationalists may try to spin him.

...

Also Loz, what Sparkyyy said. Life for some (in Moscow for example) is certainly better, materially if not spiritually, than it was in the 70s. But for most Russians no. It's not for no reason that some consider Yeltsin and his cohorts 'worse than Hitler', nor the sale of Soviet era assets 'the robbery of the century'. It has had repercussions to this day. People can shop without standing in line, that's true, but the full fridge part, that's definitely not the case, not in the regions, unless you jump through all sorts of hoops to fill that fridge yourself (absurd bulk purchases, gardening, canning, etc.). I recall Sergei Kurginyan talking about 'teachers being unable to travel from Tomsk to Omsk', much less abroad; this is definitely the case for the part of my family which live in Siberia.

Also, there is no category 'USSR' in judging quality of life. Life in the Baltics, Belarus, Georgia or the capitals was probably better in some aspects than it was in some regions of other Eastern Bloc countries, and worse in others. Same goes for the 'EU', itself a very diverse array of countries.
"The thing about capitalism is that it sounds awful on paper and is horrendous in practice. Communism sounds wonderful on paper and when it was put into practice it was done pretty well for what they had to work with." -MiG
Loz
[+-]
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Soviet cogitations: 11879
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 06 Dec 2009, 23:17
Philosophized
Post 28 Jul 2016, 04:03
By pretty much all objective measures the average Russian has a standard of living far closer to the Western one compared to the one an average RSFSR citizen had 30 or 40 years ago, where people from Yugoslavia of all places were shocked with poverty and misery there, meaning Kiev-Leningrad-Moscow not Tajikistan. The Yeltsin times as well were nothing Russia-specific, shock therapies and everything else associated with the 90s happened everywhere. Even though Russia's economy went to shit recently the average salary in Russia is still around 300-350 in real money ( dollars ), comparable to Bulgaria and Romania.
Soviet cogitations: 12389
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 18 Apr 2010, 04:44
Ideology: None
Philosophized
Post 28 Jul 2016, 05:45
If the current "Putin hacked the DNC for Trump's benefit" rumors solidify into policy, you'd better hold on to your waistlines for a new round of sanctions. I personally don't put it past Putin...on the other hand, would he really have the balls? Direct espionage on this scale could not only rupture Russo-American relations beyond repair for decades, but could also expose Trump to charges of "collusion with a foreign power."

Considering how vindictive of a mood Hillary is likely to be in, this could lead to some very serious consequences, including possible slammer time (or a dramatic exile) for Donald. And it won't end if (when?) he turns up in Moscow.

Update: Julian Assange timed the release of the emails to coincide with the DNC. All well and good, but...it would have been a hell of a lot more timely to do it six months ago when it could have aggregated onto the Benghazi circus. Most of the emails in question seem to be at least that old. Why wait so damn long?A fat lot of good it does anyone now.
Miss Strangelove: "You feed giants laxatives so goblins can mine their poop before the gnomes get to it."
Soviet cogitations: 64
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 04 Jun 2015, 20:48
Pioneer
Post 28 Jul 2016, 17:46
Loz wrote:
By pretty much all objective measures the average Russian has a standard of living far closer to the Western one compared to the one an average RSFSR citizen had 30 or 40 years ago, where people from Yugoslavia of all places were shocked with poverty and misery there, meaning Kiev-Leningrad-Moscow not Tajikistan. The Yeltsin times as well were nothing Russia-specific, shock therapies and everything else associated with the 90s happened everywhere. Even though Russia's economy went to shit recently the average salary in Russia is still around 300-350 in real money ( dollars ), comparable to Bulgaria and Romania.

What objective measures?
GDP Per capita adjusted to inflation?
https://www.gapminder.org/world/#$major ... t001988,,,,

OR

GDP Per capita adjusted to inflation using the Penn World Table method?
https://www.gapminder.org/world/#$major ... t001990,,,,

OR

HDI?
1990 - USSR 25th
1990 - USA 18th
1990 - Switzerland 3rd


2015 - RF 50th
2015 - USA 8th
2015 - Switzerland 3rd
http://hdr.undp.org/sites/default/files ... ostats.pdf
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... ment_Index


Again what kind of objective data are you talking about? Also where are you from? Are you a Romanian who had to unfortunately live under the rule of Ceausescu? Or an anarchists? Are you even from the Eastern Bloc? Are you even a leftist or a liberal 'interested' in the socialist world because you seem to dishonestly denigrate the Eastern Bloc post after post.
Loz
[+-]
User avatar
Soviet cogitations: 11879
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 06 Dec 2009, 23:17
Philosophized
Post 30 Jul 2016, 13:52
Only thing relevant here is HDI. I'm surprised the Soviet one was so high but still, life for the average person there was generally shit.
Not as bad as Venezuela right now but still pretty bad.
In any case i used to be a M-L, just so you know. I myself defended the USSR and shit in over 9000 pointless discussion here and elsewhere and i like to think i know a bit about what i'm talking about.
BTW i'm from ex-Yugoslavia which fortunately wasn't a part of the Block.
Soviet cogitations: 12389
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 18 Apr 2010, 04:44
Ideology: None
Philosophized
Post 31 Jul 2016, 00:03
It's just so hard to believe that a territory as vast as Russia boasts an economy the size of...Italy.

Apart from the obvious handicaps (vast, nearly uncontrollable size, huge permafrost-covered areas that can't be exploited until global warming progresses further), it's just disheartening to realize that the Boyar oligarchy has managed to stifle progress and channel it to their own ends so successfully. Naturally, the economy suffers, but it's a small price to pay in their minds for their continued domination.

One of the greatest nations, one of the greatest peoples who ever populated the Earth. I get the Slav Melancholy when I reflect on it for too long.
Miss Strangelove: "You feed giants laxatives so goblins can mine their poop before the gnomes get to it."
Soviet cogitations: 64
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 04 Jun 2015, 20:48
Pioneer
Post 31 Jul 2016, 15:38
Loz wrote:
Only thing relevant here is HDI. I'm surprised the Soviet one was so high but still, life for the average person there was generally shit.
Not as bad as Venezuela right now but still pretty bad.
In any case i used to be a M-L, just so you know. I myself defended the USSR and shit in over 9000 pointless discussion here and elsewhere and i like to think i know a bit about what i'm talking about.
BTW i'm from ex-Yugoslavia which fortunately wasn't a part of the Block.

Why do you think GDP is completely irrelevant? The fact that Russia hasn't grown pretty much at all in 25 years is in my view very relevant. Every time I see you post you are defending the West saying that the Eastern Bloc is better off than if there still was socialism.

If even the life under the most decadent form of capitalism (the British liberalism), and on top of that with the status of a Western colony (as we both know close to everything in the ex-Eastern Bloc is owned by foreigners) is better than the life in Marxist-Leninist socialism than why be a left winger?

By the way I am still waiting for the objective data you mentioned earlier which is supposed to prove you right.
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