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Kronstadt Rebellion

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Soviet cogitations: 589
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 07 Dec 2013, 14:24
Ideology: Democratic Socialism
Unperson
Post 11 Dec 2013, 10:13
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kronstadt_rebellion

For those who think it was correct to suppress the revolt, which of the 15 points the 'mutineers' made do you disagree with?
Loz
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User avatar
Soviet cogitations: 11879
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 06 Dec 2009, 23:17
Philosophized
Post 11 Dec 2013, 10:25
Quote:
Immediate new elections to the Soviets; the present Soviets no longer express the wishes of the workers and peasants. The new elections should be held by secret ballot, and should be preceded by free electoral propaganda for all workers and peasants before the elections.
Freedom of speech and of the press for workers and peasants, for the Anarchists, and for the Left Socialist parties.
The right of assembly, and freedom for trade union and peasant associations.
The organisation, at the latest on 10 March 1921, of a Conference of non-Party workers, soldiers and sailors of Petrograd, Kronstadt and the Petrograd District.
The liberation of all political prisoners of the Socialist parties, and of all imprisoned workers and peasants, soldiers and sailors belonging to working class and peasant organisations.
The election of a commission to look into the dossiers of all those detained in prisons and concentration camps.
The abolition of all political sections in the armed forces; no political party should have privileges for the propagation of its ideas, or receive State subsidies to this end. In place of the political section, various cultural groups should be set up, deriving resources from the State.
The immediate abolition of the militia detachments set up between towns and countryside.
The equalisation of rations for all workers, except those engaged in dangerous or unhealthy jobs.
The abolition of Party combat detachments in all military groups; the abolition of Party guards in factories and enterprises. If guards are required, they should be nominated, taking into account the views of the workers.
The granting to the peasants of freedom of action on their own soil, and of the right to own cattle, provided they look after them themselves and do not employ hired labour.
We request that all military units and officer trainee groups associate themselves with this resolution.
We demand that the Press give proper publicity to this resolution.
We demand the institution of mobile workers' control groups.
We demand that handicraft production be authorised, provided it does not utilise wage labour.


The Bolsheviks were right to crush the rebellion, since it could always turn into outright treason against Soviet power and surrender of the fortress to the British lurking nearby. Also there were lots of Whites and White sympathizers among the ranks of the rebels, even if most of them were honest. It was impossible for the Bolsheviks not to liquidate Kronstadt in such a chaotic and dangerous situation.
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Soviet cogitations: 589
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 07 Dec 2013, 14:24
Ideology: Democratic Socialism
Unperson
Post 11 Dec 2013, 11:03
Thanks for the response Loz, of course I totally disagree with you on the suppression of the revolt, plus I doubt there were many if any Whites there and even if there were, why does that mean they have to die? Are the parts of their programme in bold the points you disagree with?
Soviet cogitations: 724
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 01 Mar 2011, 14:10
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Komsomol
Post 11 Dec 2013, 22:06
On the reactionary nature of the revolt see: http://www.marxist.com/kronstadt-trotsky-was-right.htm

BTW Yami, check your PM box.

The 15 points were demagogic and among other things reflected the peasant composition and petty-bourgeois ideology of the revolt (e.g. "freedom of action on their own soil.")
Last edited by Ismail on 11 Dec 2013, 22:08, edited 1 time in total.
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Soviet cogitations: 589
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 07 Dec 2013, 14:24
Ideology: Democratic Socialism
Unperson
Post 11 Dec 2013, 22:07
Ismail wrote:
On the reactionary nature of the revolt see: http://www.marxist.com/kronstadt-trotsky-was-right.htm

BTW Yami, check your PM box.


Thanks but which of the 15 points do you disagree with? Which one, if you believe it, is worthy of death?
Soviet cogitations: 724
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 01 Mar 2011, 14:10
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Komsomol
Post 11 Dec 2013, 22:10
Yami wrote:
Which one, if you believe it, is worthy of death?
Pretty sure the act of mutinying and resisting the ending thereof was what led to deaths.

As an ironic aside, Trotsky in one of his memoirs actually chides Stalin for taking a "centrist" position on the revolt. At the time Stalin apparently thought that the will of the mutineers to continue what they were doing would eventually peter out, whereas Lenin disagreed, pointing out that all the forces of reaction would use Kronstadt as a clarion call for counter-revolution. Lenin was correct, and Stalin conceded the point.
Last edited by Ismail on 11 Dec 2013, 22:14, edited 1 time in total.
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Soviet cogitations: 589
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 07 Dec 2013, 14:24
Ideology: Democratic Socialism
Unperson
Post 11 Dec 2013, 22:14
As an ironic aside, Trotsky in one of his memoirs actually chides Stalin for taking a "centrist" position on the revolt. At the time Stalin apparently thought that the will of the mutineers to continue what they were doing would eventually peter out, whereas Lenin disagreed, pointing out that all the forces of reaction would use Kronstadt as a clarion call for counter-revolution.[/quote]

Right, so if Lenin had failed, Kerensky should have had him and the other revolutionaries shot. Fair enough.
Soviet cogitations: 10005
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 14 Jul 2008, 20:01
Ideology: Trotskyism
Philosophized
Post 12 Dec 2013, 01:05
Ismail wrote:
On the reactionary nature of the revolt see: http://www.marxist.com/kronstadt-trotsky-was-right.htm

BTW Yami, check your PM box.

The 15 points were demagogic and among other things reflected the peasant composition and petty-bourgeois ideology of the revolt (e.g. "freedom of action on their own soil.")


You're the last person I would ever have expected to quote Marxist.com. Kudos to you.
"Don't know why i'm still surprised with this shit anyway." - Loz
[+-]
Soviet cogitations: 589
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 07 Dec 2013, 14:24
Ideology: Democratic Socialism
Unperson
Post 12 Dec 2013, 09:07
If all mutinies are bad and deserve to be put down, I take it you are all oppossed to these ones?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutiny

Treason doth never prosper, what's the reason? For if it prosper, none dare call it Treason.
Soviet cogitations: 724
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 01 Mar 2011, 14:10
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Komsomol
Post 13 Dec 2013, 21:35
Mabool wrote:
You're the last person I would ever have expected to quote Marxist.com. Kudos to you.
It's not like the Trotskyist and "Stalinist" lines on Kronstadt differ.

Yami wrote:
If all mutinies are bad and deserve to be put down,
No one has claimed that, just like no one claims that all wars are bad or that all violence is bad. What matters are the specifics of each individual case and their class character. A petty-bourgeois rebellion calling in effect for an end to Soviet power, under the guise of achieving "soviets without communists," has nothing in common with, say, the Sepoy Rebellion.
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