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Question about the Baltic states

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Soviet cogitations: 1
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 06 Mar 2012, 19:52
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Post 06 Mar 2012, 20:00
Hey guys so I've studied the USSR for a while and most of the republics pepole liked being in the USSR but did the baltics I know westerns aways say they didn't but I've also herd them say they enjoyed it so did they ?
JAM
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Soviet cogitations: 172
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 09 Mar 2012, 02:37
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Pioneer
Post 18 Mar 2012, 04:38
They might have liked the economic system but certainly didn't like to be under Moscow ruling. The major factor for the collapse of the USSR was the extension of its territory and influence. In the late 80's the people from the Baltic States didn't want to breakup from the USSR because of the socialist economy but rather because of the Moscow dominance over them. They wanted rightfully their independence from Russia. The problem was that other regions of the USSR wanted their independence as well and that was enough to tear the all system apart. Many people confuses intentionally (mostly) or not the political component with the economical one, although the economic stagnation of the USSR during the 80's also contributed to rise the anger and the will of those regions to achieve their independence.
"If I could control Hollywood, I could control the world." -Joseph Stalin
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Soviet cogitations: 200
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 29 Jul 2011, 11:37
Ideology: Other Leftist
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Post 24 Mar 2012, 11:19
On one hand, Stalin deported a lot of Baltic people to Siberia in the 1940s/1950s. On the other hand, the Baltic republics have such a neoliberal wreck of a goverment that it makes other post-communist countries look good in comparision. Most of the Baltics have more than 20 percent unemployment, a rapidly declining population due to emigration mainly and goverments sympathizing with the Nazis. It is all about if you want to get riled up about 70 year old atrocities or your primary concern is the absolutely shitty situation in present day Baltics.
JAM
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Soviet cogitations: 172
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 09 Mar 2012, 02:37
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Pioneer
Post 26 Mar 2012, 03:05
In 1990, the GDP per capita of Estonia was higher than some of the EEC like Portugal and Greece and was at the same level of Ireland and Spain. Latvia and Lithuania GDP's per capita fell to only half of its levels of 1990 in the post- USSR period. The GDP per capita of the Baltic States were the highest of all Union: Estonia 10.820; Latvia 9.916; Lithuania 8.663.
"If I could control Hollywood, I could control the world." -Joseph Stalin
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Soviet cogitations: 200
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 29 Jul 2011, 11:37
Ideology: Other Leftist
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Post 26 Mar 2012, 20:40
The GDP PPP per capita was even higher in Czechoslovakia, Hungary and East Germany.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 28 Feb 2012, 16:12
Ideology: Left Communism
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Post 09 Apr 2012, 10:39
Yeah, but Hungary, Czechoslovakia and the DDR weren't part of the Soviet Union.


The Baltics were the wealthiest Republics in the Union, while either Czechoslovakia or the DDR were the wealthiest countries in the Eastern bloc proper.
Cm'on baby, eat the rich!!! - Motörhead
JAM
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Soviet cogitations: 172
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 09 Mar 2012, 02:37
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Pioneer
Post 09 Apr 2012, 12:52
I don't think your statements are accurate.

GDP per capita in 1990:

USSR

Estonia- 10.820
Latvia- 9.916
Lithuania- 8.663
Russia- 7.779

Eastern Bloc

East Germany- 5.704
Czechoslovakia- 8.513
Hungary- 6.459
Poland- 5.113

Source: http://www.cepr.org/meets/wkcn/1/1699/p ... _Klein.pdf
http://www.ggdc.net/maddison/Historical ... 2-2010.xls

It looks like the Baltics were the wealthiest of the entire Eastern Bloc after all.
"If I could control Hollywood, I could control the world." -Joseph Stalin
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Soviet cogitations: 172
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 28 Feb 2012, 16:12
Ideology: Left Communism
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Post 09 Apr 2012, 13:11
1990 was a crappy year: Gimme 1978-1982.
Cm'on baby, eat the rich!!! - Motörhead
JAM
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Soviet cogitations: 172
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 09 Mar 2012, 02:37
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Pioneer
Post 09 Apr 2012, 13:26
Don't you forget that 1990 was a crappy year for all eastern countries. I don't have the data about those years you mentioned. The best i can give you is 1973:

URRS

Estonia - 8.657
Latvia- 7.846
Lithuania- 7.593
Russia- 6.582

Eastern Bloc

East Germany- 8.559
Czechoslovakia- 7.041
Hungary- 5.596
Poland- 5.340

Estonia GDP per capita is still higher than East Germany. Fair enough?
"If I could control Hollywood, I could control the world." -Joseph Stalin
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Soviet cogitations: 172
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 28 Feb 2012, 16:12
Ideology: Left Communism
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Post 10 Apr 2012, 14:31
Those are much more representative.

Estonia still was the most developed Soviet republic (no surprises) and pretty much tied with the DDR. Czechoslovakia roughly kept parity with Latvia and Lithuania, and Hungary had not yet reached its peak.
Cm'on baby, eat the rich!!! - Motörhead
JAM
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Soviet cogitations: 172
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 09 Mar 2012, 02:37
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Pioneer
Post 10 Apr 2012, 15:37
No surprises? But you and Neuron said that DDR and Czechoslovakia had GDP's per capita superior to the soviet republics. Hungary's peak was 7.031 in 1988 and never surpassed the Baltic states. You can check the numbers in those sources that i gave.
"If I could control Hollywood, I could control the world." -Joseph Stalin
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Soviet cogitations: 172
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 28 Feb 2012, 16:12
Ideology: Left Communism
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Post 10 Apr 2012, 20:08
No surprises in Estonia being the most developed Baltic republic. It basically tied with East Germany.
Estonia having the lead was surprising.


The Baltics and the better-off countries in Eastern Europe were more or less tied. That makes the Baltic nationalists even dumber than I thought: They were basically rebelling against prosperity.
Cm'on baby, eat the rich!!! - Motörhead
JAM
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Soviet cogitations: 172
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 09 Mar 2012, 02:37
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Pioneer
Post 10 Apr 2012, 20:50
KlassWar wrote:
No surprises in Estonia being the most developed Baltic republic. It basically tied with East Germany.
Estonia having the lead was surprising.


I'm not gonna lie to you, I also thought that the GDP per capita of DDR and Czechoslovakia was superior to any soviet republic until i saw the statistics.

KlassWar wrote:
That makes the Baltic nationalists even dumber than I thought: They were basically rebelling against prosperity.


They surely regretted the collapse of the SU from a economic point of view.
"If I could control Hollywood, I could control the world." -Joseph Stalin
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Soviet cogitations: 4405
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 07 Oct 2004, 22:04
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Resident Soviet
Post 11 Apr 2012, 00:31
Where did you get your Baltic 1973 statistics from JAM?
"The thing about capitalism is that it sounds awful on paper and is horrendous in practice. Communism sounds wonderful on paper and when it was put into practice it was done pretty well for what they had to work with." -MiG
JAM
[+-]
Soviet cogitations: 172
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 09 Mar 2012, 02:37
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Pioneer
Post 11 Apr 2012, 01:29
soviet78 wrote:
Where did you get your Baltic 1973 statistics from JAM?


From here: www.ggdc.net/maddison/Historical_Statis ... 2-2010.xls

I'm gonna correct the link that i gave in my previous post.
"If I could control Hollywood, I could control the world." -Joseph Stalin
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Soviet cogitations: 4405
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 07 Oct 2004, 22:04
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Resident Soviet
Post 11 Apr 2012, 01:51
Wow, thanks a lot. These are quite valuable statistics.
"The thing about capitalism is that it sounds awful on paper and is horrendous in practice. Communism sounds wonderful on paper and when it was put into practice it was done pretty well for what they had to work with." -MiG
JAM
[+-]
Soviet cogitations: 172
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 09 Mar 2012, 02:37
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Pioneer
Post 11 Apr 2012, 18:08
soviet78 wrote:
Wow, thanks a lot. These are quite valuable statistics.



You're welcome Soviet78. Another interesting facts that this stats provide is that the GDP per capita in SU rose more than any other country during the 30's and the GDP per capita in today's poor regions like Georgia and Moldova were high during the Soviet existence.
"If I could control Hollywood, I could control the world." -Joseph Stalin
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Soviet cogitations: 200
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 29 Jul 2011, 11:37
Ideology: Other Leftist
Pioneer
Post 11 Apr 2012, 20:06
Actually your info is incorrect:

http://www.gapminder.org/world/

Nominal GDP per capita is both inaccurate and abnormally low, in PPP dollars (meaning accounting price differences) Estonia etc. still lagged behind Czechoslovakia. And there is also the little fact that in 1989 there was barely anything in the shops in all of USSR while in CSSR the situation was almost the same as in 1982.
JAM
[+-]
Soviet cogitations: 172
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 09 Mar 2012, 02:37
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Pioneer
Post 11 Apr 2012, 21:18
Neuron wrote:
Actually your info is incorrect:

http://www.gapminder.org/world/

Nominal GDP per capita is both inaccurate and abnormally low, in PPP dollars (meaning accounting price differences) Estonia etc. still lagged behind Czechoslovakia. And there is also the little fact that in 1989 there was barely anything in the shops in all of USSR while in CSSR the situation was almost the same as in 1982.


Firstly, you don't have Czechoslovakia, USSR or East Germany in that data.

Secondly, if nominal GDP per capita is abnormally low than it should be also for the soviet republics and not only just for Czechoslovakia.

Thirdly, i just went to the List of regions by past GDP (PPP) per capita of Wikipedia and guess what, the numbers contained there match perfectly with the numbers which I gave above. So, those statistics contemplate Purchasing power parity as well.

Regarding USSR's shops what you said was American propaganda in the late 80's which took advantage from the USSR economic problems in its final stage to force its collapse. There was shortage in some USSR's regions but not in all of them.
"If I could control Hollywood, I could control the world." -Joseph Stalin
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