Best Soviet Leader?

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1. Lenin
2. Khruschev

This is contradictory and makes absolutely no sense; as Khruschev and Lenin are mutually exclusive figures. Khruschev's denigration of Stalin's legacy was a direct attack against Lenin. The only reason he didn't explicitly list Lenin's name in his slander was the fact that it wouldn't have been politically expedient for his own opportunistic aims.

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This is contradictory and makes absolutely no sense; as Khruschev and Lenin are mutually exclusive figures. Khruschev's denigration of Stalin's legacy was a direct attack against Lenin. The only reason he didn't explicitly list Lenin's name in his slander was the fact that it wouldn't have been politically expedient for his own opportunistic aims.

This.

I don't understand how anybody could give another answer but Stalin. Stalin is of crucial importance to Marxism. What would Marx', Engels' and Lenin's theories be worth if Stalin hadn't proven their truth by building socialism? What use would any form of anti-capitalism be if Stalin hadn't proven that capitalism can be overcome? Where would the world socialist movement be if Stalin hadn't spread socialism from Berlin to Beijing? How would the world look like if Stalin hadn't most heroically saved it from the fascist scum that was spreading from Germany, determined to eventually take over the whole world? What, I ask, would be the vision for modern communists if Stalin hadn't showed us what Socialism looks like? Stalin's Soviet Union was the most advanced human society the world has ever seen.

He deserves nothing but respect. Any criticism, however justified it may be (For Stalin, just like any human being, committed grave errors too), is dwarfed in comparison to his enormous achievements.

All this bullshit along the lines of "Trotsky would have been much better for the USSR ;_;!" is totally irrelevant. Trotsky was a counter-revolutionary calling for the overthrow of the USSR's legitimate government, he was rightfully executed. He was a smart guy, I'm sure he could have done much good if he hadn't decided to part ways with the Soviet leadership, but we'll never know, and therefore it's useless to think about it.

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I don't understand how anybody could give another answer but Stalin.

Because Stalin set the mode that led directly to the downfall of the Soviet Union as predicted by Trotsky over fifty years before it happened.

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Stalin is of crucial importance to Marxism.

Only insofar as what we should avoid at all costs.

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What would Marx', Engels' and Lenin's theories be worth if Stalin hadn't proven their truth by building socialism?

Firstly Stalin never built socialism but instead a transitional state. Second the theories of those great men would still be presiding over a existent Soviet Union. If not for stalinist degradation we wouldn't be talking about the greatest country in human history in the past tense.

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What use would any form of anti-capitalism be if Stalin hadn't proven that capitalism can be overcome?

Communism is not anti-capitalism. Its the state beyond capitalism.

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Where would the world socialist movement be if Stalin hadn't spread socialism from Berlin to Beijing?

Stalin is hardly responsible for these achievements, in fact these occurred in spite of his disastrous leadership.

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How would the world look like if Stalin hadn't most heroically saved it from the fascist scum that was spreading from Germany, determined to eventually take over the whole world?

Without Stalin's bullshit policies regarding germany that fascist scum would have never come to power in the first place. Also it was the russian people who defeated Hitler not Stalin.

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What, I ask, would be the vision for modern communists if Stalin hadn't showed us what Socialism looks like?

Stalinism is perhaps one of the worst scars on the face of communism. Even discounting capitalist propaganda, Stalinist russia was a fragged up place that had strayed a long way from the principals of the bolshevik revolution. If not for Stalin we would not have had a Khrushchev or any of the other revisionist successors, and in turn so would we still have a Soviet Union.

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Stalin's Soviet Union was the most advanced human society the world has ever seen.

Bullshit. While socialist methods had greatly advanced russia it was still far behind the most developed capitalist economies. If not for Stalin and his fallacious policy of socialism in one country these deficiencies could have easily been overcome, alas they were not.

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All this bullshit along the lines of "Trotsky would have been much better for the USSR ;_;!" is totally irrelevant.

Again bullshit. I have said many times that I don't believe Trotsky would have been the best leader of the USSR but he definitely would have been a hell of a lot better than Stalin. Stalin's policies obviously failed as they led to "leaders" like Gorbachev coming to power at all.

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Trotsky was a counter-revolutionary calling for the overthrow of the USSR's legitimate government

If you had ever read or even vaguely understood anything that Trotsky wrote you would realize how absurd a statement this is. Trotsky was if anything too revolutionary and only ever fought for the expansion of Soviet influence. Trotsky advocated a political revolution to place the state firmly back into the hands of the people and out of the hands of the ever expanding stalinist bureaucracy.

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he was rightfully executed.

Assassinating a man exiled from his country that he clearly loved is abhorrent and could only be justified by the most blind of apologists.

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I'm sure he could have done much good if he hadn't decided to part ways with the Soviet leadership

Yeah I'm sure if he had stuck around Stalin would have let him live and continue to undermine his massive grab for power.

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but we'll never know, and therefore it's useless to think about it.

I agree that "if trosky had been leader..." is irrelevant but his criticisms of Stalin are more relevant than ever. Stalin usurped the power and energy of the greatest movement in human history and his actions and policies set the standard that would destroy the soviet union. He is something that all communists must be constantly on guard against. Otherwise our future projects are doomed to the same failures.

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Because Stalin set the mode that led directly to the downfall of the Soviet Union as predicted by Trotsky over fifty years before it happened.

Elaborate. You claim that Stalin indirectly allowed Glasnost and Perestroika to happen, although they contradict basically everything he ever did? And you claim that Trotsky foresaw Glasnost and Perestroika?

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Firstly Stalin never built socialism but instead a transitional state.

Wage labor didn't exist in the Soviet Union as it does in capitalism. The class contradiction was overcome. There was no exploitation anymore. How is this not socialism? What does socialism have that Stalin's Soviet Union didn't?

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Second the theories of those great men would still be presiding over a existent Soviet Union. If not for stalinist degradation we wouldn't be talking about the greatest country in human history in the past tense.

Again, elaborate. I still fail to see how Stalin paved the way for the Soviet Union's downfall.

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Communism is not anti-capitalism. Its the state beyond capitalism.

Great, sherlock. But I was talking about anti-capitalist thinking in general in the sentence you quoted.

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Stalin is hardly responsible for these achievements, in fact these occurred in spite of his disastrous leadership.

So Stalin is not responsible for the introduction of Socialism to Eastern Europe? Stalin is not responsible for the victory of Socialism in China? While a (dubious) point could be made for the latter claim, the Eastern European countries (except Yugoslavia) have nobody but Stalin to thank for the socialist period in their history.

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Without Stalin's bullshit policies regarding germany that fascist scum would have never come to power in the first place.

Elaborate... are you talking about the SPD-KPD split?

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Also it was the russian people who defeated Hitler not Stalin.

It was the Soviet people. And said Soviet people would have been raped to death by Germany if they hadn't had a leader to guide them. What is an army without its leader?

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Even discounting capitalist propaganda, Stalinist russia was a fragged up place that had strayed a long way from the principals of the bolshevik revolution [...] While socialist methods had greatly advanced russia it was still far behind the most developed capitalist economies. If not for Stalin and his fallacious policy of socialism in one country these deficiencies could have easily been overcome, alas they were not.

This is simply not true. The Stalinist Soviet Union (actually, I've only ever heard conservatives and other nutjobs call it "Russia"... ) was the first society to overcome racism and sexism, the first country where workers didn't have to be afraid of losing their jobs (and this single feat is a sure sign for the abolition of wage slavery). In fact, not only were jobs guaranteed, factories even had to offer all sorts of luxuries to their workers to keep them from quitting their job - the direct opposite from the situation under capitalism. People were guaranteed homes and access to culture and medicine and education. And not just any education, the Soviet school system was far superior to any other school system I've ever heard or read about. The country experienced the most massive economical growth that the world has ever seen. People were happy with their leader and their task of building socialism. For people who'd still witnessed Tsarist Russia, Stalinism must have been like all of their wildest dreams had come true (unless they were kulaks, lol).

And I'm sure you're aware of all of that, because I don't think you're unintelligent. So how was the Stalinist Soviet Union fragged up?

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Again bullshit. I have said many times that I don't believe Trotsky would have been the best leader of the USSR but he definitely would have been a hell of a lot better than Stalin.

What leads you to think that?

I'm going to answer the stuff about Trotsky later, I'm off to school now.

While some of Stalin's policies advanced the cause of socialism, the fact of the matter remains that the used the pretence of "socialism" to allow himself to become the leader of a dictatorship.

The purges of his political enemies, the establishment of inefficient farming methods, the cult of personality that he created.

As for my assertion that Lenin and Khruschev were the two best leaders, they are not the antithesis of each other. Khruschev "de-Stalinization" of the USSR was not an attack on Lenin. Stalin's establishment of the dictator state was an attack on Lenin. Lenin called for "all power to the Soviets," and Stalin did the opposite. His leadership led to "all power to the politburo."

Trotsky is the guy who wanted to continue the war after the defeat in Poland, with the(ridiculous) hope of eventually takin Berlin, Paris and London.

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Trotsky is the guy who wanted to continue the war after the defeat in Poland, with the(ridiculous) hope of eventually takin Berlin, Paris and London.

One of the reasons that the US dropped the nuclear bombs on Japan was to prevent just a thing. Europe was completely war exhausted at the conclusion of WW2. Soviet Russia had the manpower, resources and war materials needed to easily steamroll their way to the shores of France.

The US having the bomb ensured that it didn't happen.

I'm talking about the Russian Civil War. Trotsky was long dead by the time the bombs were dropped. Please do learn your history.

Soviet I ttink that the loosening occured because the purges stopped. They were the mechanism for weeding out incompetence and they were what kept the apparatchiks from hanging on to their positions and gettin comfortable.

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I'm talking about the Russian Civil War. Trotsky was long dead by the time the bombs were dropped. Please do learn your history.

My history is fine.

Misunderstood your original post .

I think the post-Stalin leadership was incompetent. Thoroughly. On the highest level. And as time went by that incompetence trickled downward into the rank and file adminsitrators and managers.

Cherenko? I think his name was Chernenko. And here is the detail about Chernenko:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konstantin_Chernenko
And Andropov:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andropov
They are very long so I can't put it here.
For me, Lenin is the best one. Stalin did many works for the USSR but he was so cruel that he made many countries hate communism.
In Lenin's testament, he said that comrades should beware of Stalin, he held too much power in his hand. But that time no one believe Lenin, they thought that he wasn't clear-sighted...

I think Lenin is the best one. Stalin is good, but he made other countries hate the USSR and Communism by killing many people.

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I think Lenin is the best one. Stalin is good, but he made other countries hate the USSR and Communism by killing many people.

Stalin didn't make other countries "hate communism," that was the work largely of bourgeois governments propagating against communism in their own countries, for which they had obvious reasons to hate communism and socialism well before Stalin ever emerged as a leader in the Soviet Union.

The only instance where this statement may have a semblance of truth is Poland, but not because of Stalin "killing people," but simply because the Poles incorrectly placed national consciousness and patriotism above class-consciousness. This was evidenced in the 1920 war.

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Communism is not anti-capitalism. Its the state beyond capitalism.

Because it is the state beyond capitalism, it must be anti-capitalism. That is Marxist philosophy (The law of the negation of the negation).

The best Soviet leader is Bolshevik Party under the guidance of Lenin and Stalin.

Oh lawd... lol I meant for this topic to be best Soviet leader besides Lenin and Stalin..

Andropov seems cool.
And Khruschchev has some merits, too.

hm if i have to choose, i would choose Lenin, though i don't believe in leadership at all