What is the current situation of government in Bellorussia the the moment? The medua rekons thaey are electon rigging bastards, but one can never be sure to trust the media!
There is no proof the elections were 'rigged' although I wouldn't blame Lukashenko since he has to deal with pro-capitalist groups that are heavily funded by America and Poland. Belarus is still Socialist but Poland and America want it to become capitalist.
Belarus is not, and has never been communist.
Just as the USSR was socialist under Stalin?
Tell me how Belarus is capitalist, please.
WorkingClass is so strictly utopianist in his assumptions about the requirements for a socialist state that in his view no society has actually experienced "real socialism" but for a handful of short-lived small scale experiments. He seems to have no appreciation for the real and positive achievements of self-proclaimed and otherwise classified socialist states, and simplistically justifies away any shortcomings as 'non-socialist'. I'm sure it's fun for anti-leftists to argue with him because every example they bring up he just says is not worthy of defense, thus having nothing but utopianist rhetoric, rather than historical examples, to argue for and back up his case.
On topic: Lukashenko seems firmly in control of the country and it seems that most anti-government rhetoric is coming from a tiny minority of young nationalist hooligans funded by the West who seem to think that bringing Belarus into the ranks of the poor of the rest of the region is a good idea. 'Last dictator in Europe' my ass -The West is just pissed off because Lukashenko refuses to bend over, sell out the country and marry an American woman.
I only hope that the increase in Russian gas prices and the loss of revenue from customs duties (very substantial for the Belarussian economy) doesn't increase unrest too much and that Lukashenko can find a reasonable solution soon. I know there's a power plant idea but that will take years and billions of dollars.
I think the anti-brotherly policy being perpetuated by Putin toward one of Russia's closest friends and allies depict quite well the gansterist, anti-moralist, anti-ideologist, oligarch allied greed driven policy of Russia's current leadership. Immensely depressing to me personally.
Pray tell, how was, say, Republican Spain a "small scale experiment"?
Problem is, you think in terms of black and white.
Perhaps Belarus is not capitalist, but it is certainly not socialist. Socialism requires workers power, and there is no such thing in Belarus.
I don't see a dominating corporate class in Belarus and neither do I see the economy being whored out to MNCs. The public sector is still strong, and the private sector only constitutes a mere 2% of the economy. And who runs the public sector?? So, how isin't Belarus Socialist? It isin't Communist but how isin't it Socialist?
Of course, Belarus can't follow Socialism on purist or "ideal" lines, simply due to the ground realities surrounding Belarus in the 21st century. For one, its neighbours are embracing corporatism to rabid proportions. Second, it doesn't have a Socialist superpower as a solid backer as say, the DDR did. Face it, Belarus has very limited resources & a small geography with "democracy lovers (aka corporate scoundrels)" are just waiting for Belarus to turn capitalist.
To wave the flag, Belarus is one of the few countries in this world where people are able to meet with the leader & address their issues directly, through a queue system.
Though, one thing that makes me a tad bit uncomfortable on Lukashenko is the outrageously high rates of incarceration in his country. Belarus hosts ~582/ 100,000 people in jails. As an Indian (that hosts only 29/100,000) a number like 582 would make me choke a little...
Comrade Soviet78 (or anyone who knows Belarus):-
Why is there so much incarceration in Belaurs??? ?? ?
Well Belarus experienced all the problems of the post-Soviet collapse period, including burgeoning crime rates, use of drugs (mostly injection drugs), prostitution, etc. The official society remains strictly moralist, so that some petty crimes can get big sentences. Lukashenko is a no-nonsense kind of guy, meaning criminals get their punishment (and the stability he has brought to the country is what ordinary people love him for).
Nevertheless the government has been softening up on some petty crimes, particularly on injection drug use and prostitution, specifically in attempts to reduce HIV/AIDS rates in the country (Belarus already has lower rates than any of its post-Soviet neighbours apart from Lithuania btw, thanks to its efforts (1 in 514) -compared to 1 in 152 in Russia, 1 in 113 in Ukraine, 1 in 230 in Latvia -according to UNAIDS).
"The thing about capitalism is that it sounds awful on paper and is horrendous in practice. Communism sounds wonderful on paper and when it was put into practice it was done pretty well for what they had to work with." -MiG
I surely do hope that post modern moralism in Belarus isin't as luricrous as post modern moralism in India...
That's some much needed fresh air right there!!! Do you got any sources with this regard (the govt. softening up drug use laws, prostitution laws etc)
True, it should be.
"History is a set of lies agreed upon."
Lukashenko's system is as most old soviet-states state capitalism, but with a negative dialectical road towards socialism. It is still better than "regular" capitalism.
Ideology transforms human beings into subjects, leading them to see themselves as self-determining agents when they are in fact shaped by ideological processes. L. Althusser
The Communist Party of Belarus is still very powerful there and is part of the government.
Belarus still uses the communist coat-of-arms.
And theres the Belarus KGB..
From what I've seen the MAZ plant still prominently displays its Soviet labour awards.
Sure old people have died in their droves from the bitter cold of the warmest january on record, and they practically rot in their hospital beds and our prime minister is incapacitated in office..
But God damn it Britain is getting the job DONE.
There is the pro-government Communist Party of Belarus (CPB) and then there is the Part of Communists of Belarus (PCB) which is a pro-western Trot revisionist party.
At least they didn't forget their past.
Homer: "You guys are commies? Then why am I seeing free markets?"
True, they didn't sink to corporate nationalism, I'd have to give Alexander Lukashenko credit for that...
Belarus is largely socialist with 75% or so of the GDP made in the state sector by nationalized companies. It's essentially a slightly modernized late-USSR style socialism.
Vile, pro-terrorist piece of neo-Marxist, left-wing propaganda filled with radical sexual politics and nasty attacks on religion and Christianity
They got their independence from the Soviet Union on August 1990.
I wasn't born back then but I'm communist & I prefer the USSR period to the current system and especially the tsarist system who suppressed miniorities of people
They always suppressed polish people with their culture and dutch languages, so was Belarusian and lithuanian and others...
there was some problems like that in ussr but never there was russian domination.
Alexander Lukashenko was the only leader in the region who voted against the dissolution of the USSR. And though Belarus may be far from your ideal "Socialist" state- at least they're trying to revitalize their PDS & get it working instead of publically harping "INEFFICIENCY" and selling them under the table for rock bottom hard cash prices.
Rather than play petty cheap politics by hiding behind EU & NATO, Lukashenko had the bare basic decency to try and form some sort of a regional integration bloc rather than wound the region further by inviting NATO & World Bank / IMF brigands.
Belarus & Russia were set to merge by 2020 economically. I don't know how valid that still is, especially considering the Russian corporate oligarchs playing energy games w/ Belarus every now and then. Despite that, Lukashenko still didn't join the "anti Soviet" camp & stood loyal to the very best of his ability. And a few years back, Lukashenko tried to form a mutual bloc with Azerbaijan too.
As you can see, the man is at least trying his level best to bring all the former SSRs together & has retuned his economy to think integration rather than play into Western engineered "divide and conquer" with Russia & the other SSRs.
Whereas other supposedly more "prosperous" SSRs have degenerated to the level of becoming the West's political & economic concubines. For instance, the Minsk bike factory in Belarus is the hallmark of Soviet economic infrastructure in Belarus. Lukashenko picked up on that & not only saw that the factory survived, but also made it a formiddable player in the Asian market.
The other SSRs shamefully liquidated these hard built national assets, not even payin a shard of attention that they took years of toil, blood & sweat to setup.
Now- would I want to live under Lukashenko's Belarus? No- it's way too moralist & has way too much right wing elements in the social perspective. But other than that- Belarus is the CLOSEST working model to Socialism you can see today in the former USSR.
Actually, Belarus kind of resembles the late 80s USSR in many ways, in the way it's setup. However, during Soviet times, Belarus availed of a much more extensive & functioning PDS- which isin't available now. But still, it's more Socialist than most other Republics dotting the world map today.
If Lukashenko removed some of the right wing moralistic crap out of Belarussian social policy, it may not be such a bad place to live in after all.
You're right on the ball with that one comrade. However, most ethno nationalist morons in the former Soviet camp attribute Tsarist "Russification" to the SOviet Union. Historically, though, the cry for independence movments in many locales that would eventually become a part of the USSR was directed against the Czar & not the Soviet Union.
A point ethno nationalist lunatics conveniently forget...always.
There still was no property relations that resembled capitalism in post Stalin USSR till its breakup. It might have steered towards a bit of a consumer oriented economy (from an industrial centric one) but property relations in the USSR was by no means capitalist. But let's face it- capitalist or communist, people are going to get REAL bored of seeing factory after factory come up. You'll need to have a consumer centric economy at some point, if not today- tomorrow. Else you won't have a very happy population.
Also, the USSR never downsized or disbanded its PDS- in fact it steadily rose in size till the breakup. And yes- till the breakup of the USSR, the economy of the Soviet Union was dominated by the PDS. That's very much a characteristic of Socialism.
Also, essentials were still free & there was strong social services sector. And the economy was still production driven, not sales & commerce driven. Which steers the USSR way closer towards Socialism than capitalism.
When people say "the USSR revised its private sector policy after Stalin"- sure they did. In sense that old folks could weigh people in park for money, a factory worker could bake cookies and sell them in his place of work. A group of high school friends could bond and form a trade. These facilities were extended to the Soviets by Lenin, after his initial rule. WWII forced Stalin to curtail these rights so that every single drop of human resources could be invested to post war reconstruction & hyper industrialization.
However, after that industrialization & goals set by Stalin for the USSR was achieved- it had to move on & change its makeup. Unless you're talking about Perestroika & Glabonist, you really can't call the USSR non Socialist at any point in time.
Some aspects of Stalin's centralization schemes remained. During Stalin's era, this was a necessity as M A S S I V E (and I mean it!) reidustrialisation & reconstruction was required during his post WWII rule. After Stalin's death, his successors never really disbanded his cenralized control model of the industry, thereby corroding workers bargaining power directly. Yet- they still had unions, interest groups & other mediums to get their voices heard pretty effectively. Yes, this is a flaw but still- it doesn't make the USSR non Socialist.
Was post Stalin USSR less egalitarian than Lenin's & Stalin's USSR? Maybe. But non-Socialist? Definately not.
Last edited by arif_moin on 01 Jun 2007, 10:24, edited 3 times in total.
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