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Why did the US beat the USSR to the moon?

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Soviet cogitations: 873
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 05 Jun 2004, 18:45
Komsomol
Post 08 Mar 2005, 21:06
Quote:
You are not in a position to say the moon landings were or were not faked... that's my point... only a very few people on the planet are in that position of certainty...


This is the biggest bullshit argument I have ever heard. Are you saying that we cannot weigh the evidence presented before us and come to a logical conclusion? If so, you are wrong. Look at the pictures, read the articles, talk to the astronauts, do the fragging research instead of giving creedence to hairbrained conspiracy theories that are based on conjecture and slander.

I don't know if you claim to be so, but you certainly don't show yourself to be a Marxist. You show no signs of applying any sort of scientific logic to your thought processes, and seem to just latch on to whatever theories are popular and fun to the community of charlatans you associate with. Start analyzing evidence for yourself, and you will see the error of the arguments put forth by the pseudo-science of these frauds.

-QSP
It's Cascadia, bitch.
[+-]
Soviet cogitations: 599
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 02 Jan 2005, 23:19
Komsomol
Post 16 Mar 2005, 20:37
Americans did land on the moon. Every conspiracy has been proven against. The moon rocks could not have came down as asteroids because they show no affects of the heat coming through the atmosphere. Or the oxygen corrosion. The flag was waving because there is a pole through the top of the flag. It is a vacuum so it’s not going to be stiff as a brick it’s going to wave as they have just put it up. That claim is so ridiculous. How could they get wind inside a studio if it was faked. There is an object on the moon that was placed there by the astronauts that was made so they could calculate the distance of the moon to the earth. The object had a reflective mirror which a laser was shined from earth at the object the mirror would bounce back the laser and calculating the time for the laser to bounce back they could find the exact distance between moon and earth.

Feel free to post any more conspiracies and ill be happy to prove them wrong.
Image


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Soviet cogitations: 55
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 27 Mar 2005, 03:47
Pioneer
Post 02 Apr 2005, 03:11
Moon soil has to be transported.. soil doesn't land on earth itself.
Soviet cogitations: 1236
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 05 Feb 2005, 05:12
Unperson
Post 02 Apr 2005, 04:34
I read that the Soviet Union landed a manned rocket in 1966, but the cosmonaut didn't get out of the module, so the USSR did beat the USA to the moon.
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Soviet cogitations: 301
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 03 May 2004, 06:33
Komsomol
Post 03 Apr 2005, 20:38
ComradeDTAII wrote:
I read that the Soviet Union landed a manned rocket in 1966, but the cosmonaut didn't get out of the module, so the USSR did beat the USA to the moon.


and the proof of this?
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Soviet cogitations: 1236
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 05 Feb 2005, 05:12
Unperson
Post 04 Apr 2005, 03:44
retraction: The Soviet modules did not have any human passengers.
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Soviet cogitations: 2848
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 21 Nov 2004, 20:31
Party Bureaucrat
Post 04 Apr 2005, 14:12
Quote:
I read that the Soviet Union landed a manned rocket in 1966, but the cosmonaut didn't get out of the module, so the USSR did beat the USA to the moon.


Proof, please.
MoX
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Soviet cogitations: 62
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 27 Feb 2005, 14:24
Pioneer
Post 04 Apr 2005, 19:55
Soviet has launch many mission to moon (unmaned mission ) called luna. Just look on google because now it's 20h50 in france and tonight my favorite movies is showed on TV so, good bye comrad !
Soviet cogitations: 15
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 23 Nov 2004, 05:52
New Comrade (Say hi & be nice to me!)
Post 02 Jun 2005, 01:15
The americans left a dish on the moon from which signals can be bounced back for experiments. This can be still done today.

No dish, no bounce back. Other nations have bounced signals off this dish too.

All the mysterious things like the flag waving, shadows, radiation belts and stars have been properly explained by scientists. There are numerous credible sources on the web explaining this.

And if the US didnt land on the moon, why didnt the soviets ever denouce it. The whole space race was a huge propaganda war and it would have been just impossible for the soviets to not point this out.

Accept it as fact, man did land on the moon and a number of times to prove it wasnt a fluke.
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Soviet cogitations: 43
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 16 Jun 2005, 22:34
Pioneer
Post 20 Jun 2005, 05:38
It is obviously true. The US did land on the moon, if the ydidnt the Soviet Union would have known about it. Plus, they brought back moon soil, moon rocks, and several other things that have no way of coming to Earth unless transported.

Unless there is SOLID proof that they did not land, I will believe you. But at the moment , the evidence against the landing does not add up.
Soviet cogitations: 2775
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 27 Sep 2004, 23:23
Party Bureaucrat
Post 20 Jun 2005, 23:18
Because the USSR did everything else. and i mean EVERYTHING! First thing in space, first living thing in space, first spacewalk, first space station, you name it, they did it first. Meanwhile the Americans were concentrating solely on getting a man to the moon. USSR was exploring space for science, the USA was firing bullets with astronaughts in them at the moon. What scientific data did the USA gain with apollo 11?
Whoppee for Comrade Sergei.
User avatar
Soviet cogitations: 43
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 16 Jun 2005, 22:34
Pioneer
Post 21 Jun 2005, 18:19
^
^

Well some things I would agree with you there, but the Russians were also concerned in the Space propaganda war. Saying that they did it all for science is foolish; BOTH nations were trying to beat eachother at any given time. Saying that the USSR did it all for science is not true. Thats almost like saying the US only went to the moon for science, which is also not true.

And, yes much scientific knowledge was obtained from Apollo 11 mainly about the composition of the moon. Plus for the first time scientists were able to examine moon rocks, and moon soil.
Soviet cogitations: 229
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 03 Jul 2005, 22:55
Unperson
Post 04 Jul 2005, 15:18
Most know that the United States faked the Moon Landing, even many scientists within the United States agree ( they moved to Europe ) it is too unlikely, consider this:

The United States President Kennedy assures that the United States will land a man on the moon by the end of the decade.

The United States lands three men on the moon on July, 1969, 5 months before the end of the decade.

The United States achieved no " first " of the Space Race, and you're telling me they actually got a man up on the moon in 1969?
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Soviet cogitations: 301
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Jun 2004, 17:01
Komsomol
Post 09 Jul 2005, 13:33
The US didn't land on the moon, in my view.
Image
Soviet cogitations: 229
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 03 Jul 2005, 22:55
Unperson
Post 09 Jul 2005, 21:06
As in every sane man's view as well.
Soviet cogitations: 1236
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 05 Feb 2005, 05:12
Unperson
Post 09 Jul 2005, 23:03
Which is probably why such "moon landings" were not broadcast over Eastern European space.
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Soviet cogitations: 14
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 08 Jul 2005, 13:32
New Comrade (Say hi & be nice to me!)
Post 09 Jul 2005, 23:36
This is turning into a heated discussion.

The space race is a thing from the past, let's look to the future.

Btw, but nations did some incredible technological steps forward into aeronautics. (Shuttles, Satellites, Mir, Apollo, Spoetnik, Hubble, ...)

Millions of Dollars/Roebels spent on a big propaganda teleshow, nice work ...
.

The sojuz "missile" is still used in space programs, Russian austronauts are still maning some of the missions.

Americans did land on the moon, see Star Trek/Stargate :o)
Soviet cogitations: 342
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 25 Mar 2005, 23:42
Komsomol
Post 10 Jul 2005, 01:47
You listens to artbell,coast coast too much about the fake moon thing

1.No Stars in pictures
2.Earth to small
3.Flag waving
4.Too much lifgting
5.Picture of the first astronaut getting of the space thing ,like who took is pictures

Image


Image



Too large click on link
http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/pao/Histo ... 5905HR.jpg


Image



Too large click on link
http://www.iolky.com/spaceprogram/flag_ ... -11866.jpg




Here are some web sites om it.
http://www.badastronomy.com/bad/tv/foxapollo.html
http://www.badastronomy.com/bad/tv/iang ... moon01.htm
http://www.ufos-aliens.co.uk/cosmicapollo.html
http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2001/ast23feb_2.htm



http://www.1freewallpaper.com/Moon-wall ... ollo17.jpg
Please give aid to the victims in Cuba and Haiti do to the Hurricane and be true communist.

Over 600,00 Cubas do not have homes and in shouters
Soviet cogitations: 58
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 05 Nov 2005, 10:10
Pioneer
Post 05 Nov 2005, 10:42
That's interesting.

Why didn't the Russians beat the Americans in the moon race? Reviewing the matter with hindsight, it might better be asked -- how did they expect to win? The matrix below shows the reasons as given by the main Russian observors of the project. These are:


Vasiliy Mishin, the Project Manager for eight years after Korolev's death, fired in 1974
Nikolai Kamanin, commander of the cosmonauts and diarist, dismissed in 1972
Boris Chertok, design leader within Mishin's organization for guidance and control systems, who left extensive memoirs
Chief Designer Korolev, who confided his concerns, to Chertok before his premature death
The observations of key other decision-makers as recorded by Kamanin and Chertok.
The investigation team of a plane crash usually finds several causes, a chain of events and mistakes, one leading to the other, thence to the final disaster. It was the same thing with the failure of the Soviet lunar program. The table is followed by a commentary.

Systemic Problems

No proper organization structure to execute non-military space programmes.
Mishin: Lack of coordination and agreement on a programme between Academy of Sciences, Ministries, Industry
No recognised authority to order all involved organizations to cooperate.
Mishin: Lack of organization/authority - 500 organizations in 28 departments had to produce equipment for N1, but only nine took orders from VPK
Chertok: Without direction from above many factories refused to complete necessary components

Lack of Soviet quality control.
Kamanin: This can only point to widespread poor quality control in the factories. There is no discipline at these factories, and few qualified workers. The investigative commissions can cite specific reasons for each failure all they want, but as far as Kamanin is concerned, there is a general problem in the Soviet industrial system.
Incorrect management and development practices.
Afanasyev: Both the management and the development practices of the Soviet space programme were inferior to the Americans. Continued use of artillery development practices (many test flights instead of extensive ground test) complex systems outdated.
Soviet Five-Year Plan structure - cannot change 'plan', no one wants to deliver bad news to leadership.
Chertok: But who would want to be the bearer of such bad news? No one volunteered.

Lack of Support for Project
No consensus within leadership to support manned spaceflight, let alone mission to the moon.
Mishin: Lack of comprehensive long-term space programme. Trying to 'beat Americans' instead of orderly program leading to earth orbit infrastucture and lunar base.
Kamanin: No single direction, no disciplined execution when a decision is finally made
Korolev: Ustinov and the military were not interested in lunar spaceflight
Andrei Grechko: Categorically against manned space, though required to foot much of the bill. 'It was only due the political machinations of Ustinov that the Ministry of Defence even ended up paying for this'.

Leading to:
Started three years late.
Mishin: Late start - leadership not interested after early successes, then asked to beat US to moon only in 1964
Insufficient funding, resources.
Mishin: Lack of resources, Funds - one tenth funding of USA,
Higher priorities for state and Mishin.
Chertok: Mishin had to support other higher priority military programs -- the 7K-OK earth orbit version of the Soyuz, the 7K-L1 circumlunar version, the Molniya communications satellite, and the R-9 and RT-2 ICBM's.
Pilyugin: Concentrating on the Temp mobile ICBM, Chelomei and Yangel ICBM projects more important.

No funds for N1 first stage test stand, N11 flight tests, or other requested elements of development program.
Mishin: Inability to test engine assemblies prior to launch without reassembling
Chertok: For Block A first stage, only single engine tests could be undertaken at Kuznetsov's OKB-236.
Korolev: Military refused to spend any funds to build a test stand at Tyuratam
Ustinov: Ministry of Defence had not approved funds for development of engines which could be static tested prior to launch, or to build a test stand for the first stage, or for N11 rocket tests (the upper stages of the N1).
Single launch decision, required by time and funding constraints, leading to…
Korolev: leadership was only willing to fund N1 production at the rate of four per year, and Korolev concluded the only moon mission he could propose at such a rate was the single-shot lunar orbit rendezvous scheme selected by the Americans.
N1 - changes made to achieve higher payload….
Korolev: N1 would have to be upgraded using the existing Lox/Kerosene propellants. No time for preferred course of developing Lox/LH2 upper stages.
Kurushin, Commander of Baikonur: Mishin had made a large number of changes to the N1 to increase its payload. However these at the same time negatively impacted the booster's reliability
…but N1 unable to achieve payload for single-launch lunar orbit rendezvous mission anyway.
Chertok: The USA Apollo translunar injection payload was 45 tonnes. The nominal payload of the N1, for the same mission, which it could not really have achieved, was 30 tonnes.
Korolev: Korolev knew from beginning N1 could not deliver payload needed to fullfill single-launch mission he sold to leadership.
Glushko: the N1 could only carry air. The gross lift-off mass was about that of a Saturn V, but the stage dry masses were 2.5 x, 5 x, 3.5x greater.
Korolev only sold lunar landing mission to leadership in order to get N1 built.
Korolev: Korolev and later Mishin couldn't admit they had miscalculated the minimum payload mass needed -- that would result in the whole project being killed. They wanted to see the N1 built for a range of manned space projects to earth orbit, moon, and Mars.

Decision to build N1 in Tyuratam.
Korolev: Due to schedule constraints, decision only brute force approach would work: to build an enormous factory, launch complex, and city in the remote desert of Kazakhstan
Personal Incompetence
Poor leadership in government.
Mishin: 'Stagnation' in leadership - superficial and contradictory orders from leadership…'Korolev too could have lost his job'.
Kamanin: No qualified Soviet government leadership in space research. Ustinov and Smirnov operate without rhyme or reason or plan.
Chertok: The entire record of the leadership was one of hundreds of failed decisions.

Lack of Korolev's leadership.
Mishin: Death of Korolev - 'proverbial drive, determination, and prestige' could have pulled project off.
Chertok: N1 would have been successful if Korolev had not died prematurely. He would have had authority to not test until ready, and to change engine vendors if needed.
Mishin's incompetence.
Kamanin: Mishin appointment huge mistake. Cannot cope with the huge number of projects assigned. He is coarse, rude, doesn't listen to critics. Weakness in sticking to unrealistic schedules of leadership. Lack of discipline of staff, can't work with other bureaux.
Chertok: Mishin unable to cope with such development work.
'Khrushchev's project'
Korolev: Only support Korolev had in the government at the time the moon project was approved was from Khrushchev
Chertok: Khrushchev, it seemed, was to blame for such enormous unaffordable projects. This in turn put Ustinov in danger, as Khrushchev's point man for space.
..leading to Brezhnev's lack of interest.
Korolev: Brezhnev, a Ukrainian, backed Yangel, since it would put work into the Ukraine.
Mercurial support from Keldysh, Head of the Academy of Sciences.
Korolev: Keldysh, the 'eminence grise' -- supported Yangel for ICBM's, Chelomei for the UR-500/LK-1 manned flyby, and Korolev for the N1/L3 lunar lander.
Keldysh was preoccupied with the Sakharov issue and was working with Suslov to get Sakharov expelled from the Academy of Sciences.
Perpetual conflict within leadership and between Chief Designers.
Chertok: Glushko and Ustinov waged a perpetual struggle against Afanasyev, Keldysh, and Mishin. Glushko responsible for convincing Keldysh, and then Ustinov, to cancel N1-L3.
Korolev: Yangel had the backing of Brezhnev, a Ukrainian, since it would put work into the Ukraine. Korolev viewed Chelomei as a 'Fifth Column', working through his employee, Khrushchev's son, to undermine and hinder everything Korolev was trying to do.

Technical Approach
Propellant controversy: use of Lox/Kerosene propellants.
Kamanin: Korolev and Mishin's rejection of Glushko's engines, and the leadership's rejection of the UR-700 as an alternative
Glushko: I opposed these propellants in the 1960's because the required schedule and technology resulted in too many independent Lox/Kerosene engines in the N1 design. By 1974 there were many years of development, and the technology was in place to proceed with development of the RD-170.
….leading to use of Kuznetsov engines.
Chertok: In Glushko 1961 offered - if Korolev would use the 'packet' scheme for the N1 as on the R-7, Glushko would develop needed 600 tf engines. Korolev rejected after consulting Mishin. Led to use of Kuznetsov engines - but Kuznetsov was a turbine engine designer with no experience in rocket technology.
Glushko: Kuznetsov engines for the N1 were rotten
N1 - 'inherently flawed design?'
Kamanin: N1 may one day fly, but it can never be a reliable booster due to the inherent design flaws
Glushko: There was a fundamental error in gas dynamics in the design of the N1.
Over-automated approach to spacecraft design.
Kamanin: Korolev, Keldysh, Mishin, and Feoktistov are all dedicated to automated spacecraft - 'over-automation'
Decision to abandon Vostok early, leading to push for early Soyuz flights.
Kamanin: Ustinov and Smirnov's cancellation of the 18 day Voskhod 3 mission, even though the crews had been trained, and the associated pressure on development of Soyuz. This resulted in Soyuz being flown before it was mature, resulting in the death of Komarov and
Not to mention
Exhaustion due to limited staff resources, demoralization due to failures.
Mishin: Exhaustion, demoralization due to setbacks
Kamanin: Death of Korolev and Gagarin both badly affected morale
Chertok: Engineers at TsKBEM were tired, burned out, and dispirited.
Bad Luck
Mishin: Bad luck - N1 was being debugged flight-by-flight, would have got there

Failure of Vasiliy Kharchev and Chertok to capture Wernher Von Braun.
Tyulin: "this is all Chertok's fault. In 1945 he should have stolen Von Braun from the Americans". "True", Chertok replied, "my adventure with Vasiliy Kharchev didn't turn out too well".
This is quite a list, and all the points are valid. Each actor has his own prejudices -- naturally the engineers don't see anything wrong with their design approach or development practices. But in my opinion, although all of these factors played a part, the overriding factor was very simple: they started too late. IF the leadership had taken seriously Kennedy's challenge in 1961, and given Korolev the go-ahead to build his original N1 according to his original plan, and IF Korolev had the full backing of the Soviet state, then it would have been quite possible to beat the Americans to the moon. He might have even seen the first flight of the booster before his untimely death.





Many of the other issues listed pointed to fundamental problems revealed by the N1 failure.

At the very top level were the fundamental systemic problems. These prevented the Soviet Union from successfully completing a number of major projects begun in the 1960's. These included virtually every large-scale aerospace project attempted: the moon program, the supersonic transport, the new generation of military aircraft, and development of digital avionics. The rather personal style of Soviet project management, which depended on the force of personality of the Chief Designer, became inappropriate. Aerospace projects had grown to such a scale that no single organization could do everything and no one person could be watching everything. These problems were recognised by the Soviet leadership, and led in the late 1970's to a drastic revisions in the structure of the Soviet industry, and the implementation of American-style project management and quality assurance techniques. These were learned in part through the Apollo-Soyuz Test Project, which gave the Soviets unprecedented access to the nuts and bolts of American technology and management styles.

At the next level was the total lack of support for manned space projects by the Soviet military, who at the same time were required to provide the bulk of the funding. A similar antipathy existed within the American military. (one result was that no American military manned space project, except a few military shuttle flights, ever reached flight status). In the Soviet Union, the rocketry industry had an absolute priority to beat the US in the missile race. This was seen as a matter of national survival, and the civilian space program always took a back seat to the ICBM programs. Therefore even though the moon project was authorised by the VPK Military-Industrial Commission, many ministries and factories not reporting to the VPK simply refused to deliver the equipment required. This led to work-arounds and delays.

Instead, the limited schedule and budget led to the following fault-tree:

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User avatar
Soviet cogitations: 344
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 15 May 2005, 17:11
Komsomol
Post 28 Jan 2006, 17:38
The USSR just shifted it's priority's to building the first space station, and they succeeded with the Salyut-program. They beat the Americans on space station technology
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