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About being labeled a "Stalinist"

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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 29 Jun 2010, 16:09
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Komsomol
Post 27 Jul 2011, 20:48
I've always liked the term "Stalinism" or "Stalinist" and I always believed that Stalinism meant that you simply supported the leadership, and political action that Stalin took while ruling the USSR. Also, supporting his policy Socialism in One Country which was used to counter the theory of "Permanent Revolution".

1.Is being labeled a Stalinist supposed to be derogatory in anyway?
2. Is Stalinism starting to become an ideology? (I will answer my own question in the next sentence.)

Also, I've never looked at Stalinism as any sort of ideology, just a certain group specifically, that adores, or supports Joseph Stalin and the role he played in the Socialist world. I believe the actual ideology of most Stalinists would officially be a "Marxist-Leninist" which is what Stalin was, or at lease some would say that's debatable...


Discuss if you'd like..but it'd be appreciated if there weren't any major debate on the ideas of Socialism in One Country and Permanent Revolution themselves, however, debate about the term Stalinism is definitely encouraged! (Because that's what this post is about)

Thanks, Comrades.
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Loz
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 06 Dec 2009, 23:17
Philosophized
Post 27 Jul 2011, 20:54
Stalin said once "I am just a disciple of Great Comrade Lenin".
It can even be said that "Stalinism" is actual,applied Marxism-Leninism.
Revisionists,opportunists,fascists and anti-communists of all colors tried to make "Stalinism" a derogatory term,they tried to turn it into an insult,but today it's becoming more and more clear to everyone that Stalin,despite his errors,fought for the people and strived for genuine communism.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 29 Jun 2010, 16:09
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Komsomol
Post 27 Jul 2011, 22:07
Oh ok so you do support Stalin? You have me confused...I remember your sarcastic post about how you dreamed you were hanging out with Stalin and it seemed like you were viciously criticizing him and it seemed that you actually hated him. So you were joking?
You have to understand it's harder to tell if people are not being serious through text, Comrade. That is damn confusing..So you do like Stalin?

Yes, it is nice to see that more and more Stalin is being recognized as a positive figure.

I read in an older post of yours, that you said it should be an honor to be called a "Stalinist" I definitely agree!

Also, Trotskyists like to throw the term "Stalinist" around as a negative one, and try to disassociate it from Marxism or Leninism.
Партия всегда права.
Die Partei hat immer recht.
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Loz
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 06 Dec 2009, 23:17
Philosophized
Post 27 Jul 2011, 22:35
Quote:
Oh ok so you do support Stalin? You have me confused...I remember your sarcastic post about how you dreamed you were hanging out with Stalin and it seemed like you were viciously criticizing him and it seemed that you actually hated him. So you were joking?

Yes i do support him.And i was of course joking in that dreams-thread.

Quote:
That is damn confusing..So you do like Stalin?

Well,Stalin definitely isn't a "likable" figure,but i think that his policies were,in the end,good.

Quote:
Also, Trotskyists like to throw the term "Stalinist" around as a negative one, and try to disassociate it from Marxism or Leninism.

Not just the Trotskytes though,but all kinds of people,from communists to anti-communists.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 20 Jul 2011, 15:17
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Post 27 Jul 2011, 23:15
Man In Grey wrote:
I always believed that Stalinism meant that you simply supported the leadership, and political action that Stalin took while ruling the USSR. Also, supporting his policy Socialism in One Country which was used to counter the theory of "Permanent Revolution"... I've never looked at Stalinism as any sort of ideology, just a certain group specifically, that adores, or supports Joseph Stalin and the role he played in the Socialist world.


Well, the English suffix -ist refers to a follower of an -ism (in this case, Stalinism), which usually denotes an ideology. So, to me, being a "Stalinist" means to subscribe wholesale to the ideology underlying his writings and policies, which is much different than being sympathetic to Stalin as a political leader during a particular historical moment.
Loz
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 06 Dec 2009, 23:17
Philosophized
Post 27 Jul 2011, 23:47
Quote:
So, to me, being a "Stalinist" means to subscribe wholesale to the ideology underlying his writings and policies, which is much different than being sympathetic to Stalin as a political leader during a particular historical moment.

The ideology underlying his writings and policies is just Marxism-Leninism.Stalin himself wasn't some "great"(not of Marx's or Lenin's "caliber") theorist,and saw himself as nothing more than a continuator of what Lenin had started.

Quote:
STALIN WAS A FAITHFUL MARXIST-LENINIST

Stalin remained true to the Marxist ideal of a classless and stateless society until his death in 1953. This is the conclusion of researchers at Amsterdam University (UvA) who studied Stalin's annotations in books by Marx, Engels, and Lenin in his private library. The research was carried out in the form of a project funded by the Dutch research organisation NWO. Many people have viewed Stalin - who always considered himself Lenin's most faithful disciple - as having betrayed Marxist principles from the moment he came to power. Howerver, the researchers say that Stalin's words and deeds are in fact reconcilable.

The notes originate from the period between 1917 and 1953 and show that the dictator continued to adhere to such Marxist goals as the abolition of the state and the creation of classless society. Moreover, Stalin's correspondence and discussions with such Communist leaders as Mao Zedong and Palmiro Togliatti show a continuing faith in the spread of communism and "world revolution."

Stalin has often been accused of betraying Marxism because of the way he built up a centralised state and because of his principle of "socialism in one country." These political aims are supposed to have undermined the Marxist doctrines of a classless society and world revolution. Stalin's patriotism is also supposed not to fit in with the Marxist world view but to represent a return to ancient Russian traditions.

The Amsterdam historians say that Stalin was not in fact the originator of the idea of "socialism in one country." This principle states that an internationally isolated socialist state has long-term viability and constitutes an intervening phase on the way to the ultimate classless and stateless world society. The idea in fact originated with the German Social Democrat Georg Vollmar, and the orthodox Marxist Karl Kautsky also propounded the idea of an autarkic socialist state when explaining his Erfurt Programme. His comments on the Erfurt Programme were virtually the bible for Marxists in the early twentieth century. Thus the idea of socialism in one country was originally developed within the Socialist Second International, which the Russian Bolshevik party originally belonged to.

According to the researchers, Stalin's patriotism has a Jacobin origin. The Jacobins were a left-wing French political movement in the eighteenth century who aimed to use revolution to revive their fatherland. Stalin, too, saw this as his main aim, believinv that it could only be brought about through a revolutionary transformation. He considered the Tsarist-capitalist system as responsible for weakening the Russian state.

The political works in Stalin's private library are almost all by Marxist authors. Books by non-revolutionary Russian political thinkers are not included. The library consisted originally of some 19,500 titles, 5000 of them on political and related topics.


http://redcomrades.byethost5.com/redcom ... al-ml.html




The Contribution of J.V. Stalin to Marxism-Leninism
http://www.revolutionarydemocracy.org/r ... alin70.htm





Quote:
In 1956, during the bloody counter-revolution in Hungary, statues of Stalin were destroyed. Thirty-five years later, statues of Lenin have been reduced to dust. The dismantling of statues of Stalin and Lenin marks the two basic breaks with Marxism. In 1956, Khrushchev attacked Stalin's achievements so that he could change the fundamental line of the Communist Party. The progressive disintegration of the political and economic system that followed led to the final break with socialism in 1990 by Gorbachev.

Of course, the media hark on every day about the clear failure of Communism around the world. But we must reiterate that, if there was a failure in the Soviet Union, it was a failure of revisionism, introduced by Khrushchev thirty-five years ago. This revisionism led to complete political failure, to capitulation to imperialism and to economic catastrophe. The current eruption of savage capitalism and of fascism in the USSR shows clearly what happens when the revolutionary principles of Marxism-Leninism are rejected.

For thirty-five years, the revisionists worked to destroy Stalin. Once Stalin was demolished, Lenin was liquidated with a flick of the wrist. Khrushchev fought mercilessly against Stalin. Gorbachev carried on by leading, during his five years of glastnost, a crusade against `Stalinism'. Notice that the dismantling of Lenin's statues was not preceded by a political campaign against his work. The campaign against Stalin was sufficient. Once Stalin's ideas were attacked, vilified and destroyed, it became clear that Lenin's ideas had suffered the same fate.

Khrushchev started his destructive work by criticizing Stalin's errors in order to `re-assert Leninism in its original form' and to improve the Communist system. Gorbachev made the same demagogic promises to confuse the forces of the Left. Today, things have been made crystal clear: under the pretext of `returning to Lenin', the Tsar returns; under the pretext of `improving Communism', savage capitalism has erupted.


Another view of Stalin
http://marxism.halkcephesi.net/Ludo%20M ... 0000000000





Quote:
I think there are two 'swords': one is Lenin and the other Stalin, once the sword of Stalin has been discarded ,once this gate is opened, by and large Leninism is thrown away.

Mao
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 20 Jul 2011, 15:17
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Post 28 Jul 2011, 00:12
Loz wrote:
The ideology underlying his writings and policies is just Marxism-Leninism.Stalin himself wasn't some "great" theorist,and saw himself as nothing more than a continuator of what Lenin had started.


I think that there are certain ideological features of Stalinism that radically deviate from classical Marxism, including a particular conception of "man" which contrasts sharply with Marx's humanism.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 29 Jun 2010, 16:09
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Komsomol
Post 28 Jul 2011, 00:42
I very much enjoy these articles and I adore marxists.org. However what's strange to me is this site contains these articles that defend Stalin quite impressively, yet in the link for "Selected Marxists" there is total anti-Stalinist drivel written in Trotsky's section and they don't even include Stalin. So there does seem to be "Anti-Stalinist" elements on marxists.org.

Quote:
First Menshevik, later Bolshevik Revolutionary. As commissar of war led the Red Army to defeat the Entente in their invasion of Soviet Russia. Helped create the Left Opposition to overthrow Stalin and stop the monstrous attrocities he'd soon commit. Created the theory of the Permanent Revolution, and the Fourth International. Assassinated by the Soviet government.

http://marxists.org/archive/selected-marxists.htm


Perhaps we could say that Stalin may have committed some atrocities, or mistakes, yes, and that's what this "Left Opposition" was fighting against. But, we also recognize his achievements as being far greater, and overall, were for the greater good, just like you had said, Loz.

I still think the page may be a bit unfair, and a jab at Stalin. It does do damage to Stalin to have such a website make such claims in almost plain view. However, it also contains such articles that are very pro-Stalin, yet they can only be found if specifically searched.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Sep 2006, 22:05
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Philosophized
Post 28 Jul 2011, 00:56
So they should take down what was proven to be true because it makes Stalin look more like he really was? Stalin killed off almost all of the old bolsheviks, calling that anything less than monstrous is an insult to the bolsheviks as a whole.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 29 Jun 2010, 16:09
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Komsomol
Post 28 Jul 2011, 01:05
No they shouldn't take it down, but they don't even include Stalin on that page or his achievements. Many of the "Old Bolsheviks" that he killed were allies with Trotsky such as Zinoviev and Kamenev who were of course original allies with Stalin in the struggle.
Партия всегда права.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Sep 2006, 22:05
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Philosophized
Post 28 Jul 2011, 01:10
Man In Grey wrote:
but they don't even include Stalin on that page or his achievements.

I agree this is a mistake as much as Stalin's (happily continued by his successors and the current Russian state) banning Trotsky's work in the USSR. Stalin belongs on the front page if only for being such a huge figure in socialist history.

Man In Grey wrote:
Many of the "Old Bolsheviks" that he killed were allies with Trotsky such as Zinoviev and Kamenev who were of course original allies with Stalin in the struggle.

Which makes Stalin's eradication of most of them all the more shitty. I've never understood being able to forgive Stalin, or even worse be apologetic of, his political programme against almost all of the leading Russian marxists.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 29 Jun 2010, 16:09
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Komsomol
Post 28 Jul 2011, 01:20
Yes but my point was they were allies against him and the fate of the USSR and the socialist world depended on whoever won this struggle. What else can you do to political opponents in such a political arena? Personally I don't believe the USSR would have survived under Trotsky's policies, but of course I stated I didn't want to get too much into that but of course I make myself the first person to do so
Russia was always known for its questionable ways of dealing with political opponents. Trotsky may have done the same thing to his opponents. Either that or just banish them all, maybe not just completely wipe them out.

History is now starting to recognize this time, Stalin's Soviet times, as more of a positive one. And because of this, I am even more proud to say that I am a Stalinist, even in earlier times when it didn't seem like there was much "demand" for Stalin. Even his picture almost made an appearance during victory day this year, perhaps maybe they will work up enough courage to give an all out display of Comrade Stalin's portrait, no holds barred. Maybe next year?
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Sep 2006, 22:05
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Philosophized
Post 28 Jul 2011, 01:33
Man In Grey wrote:
Yes but my point was they were allies against him and the fate of the USSR and the socialist world depended on whoever won this struggle.

So in your analysis only Stalin could save the USSR? Interesting.

Man In Grey wrote:
What else can you do to political opponents in such a political arena?

You don't kill them or put them in prison. Destroying the Marxist Opposition turned people like Yeltsin into relevant figures in history.

Man In Grey wrote:
Personally I don't believe the USSR would have survived under Trotsky's policies

Why?

Man In Grey wrote:
but of course I stated I didn't want to get too much into that but of course I make myself the first person to do so

Taking a position on Stalin vs Trotsky then saying you don't want to explain is pretty lame.

Man In Grey wrote:
Russia was always known for its questionable ways of dealing with political opponents.

America has some pretty questionable ways of dealing with political opponents but we're known for this so it's cool.

Man In Grey wrote:
Trotsky may have done the same thing to his opponents. Either that or just banish them all, maybe not just completely wipe them out

I see no reason to believe that Trotsky would have made such drastic purges into the Revolutionary Elite. He certainly wouldn't have gutted the RA on the eve of world war two trying to root out 'Stalinist Wreckers'. Is your position based on anything other than feelings?

Man In Grey wrote:
History is now starting to recognize this time, Stalin's Soviet times, as more of a positive one.

Being better than Nazis or third-world capitalism isn't really living up to what socialism is. Stalin's actions led to a model, replicated by his successors, to the point where Gorbachev was able to fill the CC with nothing but his supporters and destroy the USSR from the top. Stalin did some good, he was a better leader than most, but what he did against Marxists is unforgivable.

Really
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 29 Jun 2010, 16:09
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Komsomol
Post 28 Jul 2011, 02:31
Quote:
So in your analysis only Stalin could save the USSR? Interesting.


At the time, yes. Seeing as Trotsky and Stalin became the two driving forces in the power struggle, there seemed to be only one winner. Thankfully, it was Stalin. He wanted to push the USSR into speedy industrialization because he knew war was coming. "We either do it, or we'll be crushed." There really wasn't much of an alternative. The SSSR needed someone as harsh, but ruling like him at that time. They needed the boost.


Quote:
Taking a position on Stalin vs Trotsky then saying you don't want to explain is pretty lame.


Ok, fair enough. I'll give it to you straight then seeing as I put myself in this situation. I believe Permanent Revolution to be a nice idea for Communism overall but it did not go together at all with the present state of the developing socialist world. It would be totally idiotic to depend on other countries to spark their own revolutions during a time of war. However, most importantly Trotsky, like Stalin, wanted to have speedy collectivization but wanted to do it "voluntarily," again, that's idiotic to try and implement during times of approaching war. Stalin was "dizzy with success" as he put it. He forced collectivization and five year plans, and guess what, they worked.

This also answers your question about why I don't think his policies would have worked at the time. (Perm. Revol, and voluntary collectivization, rubbish)

Quote:
America has some pretty questionable ways of dealing with political opponents but we're known for this so it's cool.


Yes the good ole' US of A does have questionable ways..even now it has questionable ways of trying to run the Earth. However, what I meant by that was Russia itself did not ever experience such a political environment that it could just be shotgunned into a democracy. Because they tried democracy, it didn't work out. The revolutionary Bolsheviks spent their lives trying to overthrow the tsardom, and once they finally end up on top, what do they do? They realized their dreams of a socialist workers and peasants paradise and flowers blooming wasn't realistic and it couldn't just happen on a whim. They had no choice but to turn to bureaucracy. However, like I said, with no democratic experience, and of course being in a Civil War, they had to be bureaucratic and militaristic. They had no time for intellectual chatter boxes trying to decide what to do. And that is what I meant by "questionable tactics"

Quote:
Stalin did some good, he was a better leader than most, but what he did against Marxists is unforgivable.


*sigh* Yes, yes...he wasn't perfect. He was excessive, maybe a little too excessive, extremely excessive, even. And you're right...his grave mistakes are unforgivable. But I believe in the end he is to be revered, looked up to, or just simply recognized for his achievements. That is currently happening in Russia, slowly but surely, and I am glad for it. (I do believe taking down his statue in Gori was quite a blow however, personally, since now I won't be able to take a picture of myself in front of the statue...)
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 04 Aug 2004, 20:49
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Embalmed
Post 05 Aug 2011, 12:26
Trotsky was actually far more opposed to workers holding positions in the glavki anyway, he was actually a bit of a cock when it came to labour relations on a whole and his economic outlook had more to do with a hundred years of War Communism than anything else - at least what he could implement or push through.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 13 Oct 2011, 03:03
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Post 13 Oct 2011, 03:49
Quote:
According to the researchers, Stalin's patriotism has a Jacobin origin. The Jacobins were a left-wing French political movement in the eighteenth century who aimed to use revolution to revive their fatherland. Stalin, too, saw this as his main aim, believing that it could only be brought about through a revolutionary transformation. He considered the Tsarist-capitalist system as responsible for weakening the Russian state.


It seems these researchers are Nazbol, don't they? Look at how they depict Stalin's thought.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 14 Nov 2011, 00:25
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Post 16 Nov 2011, 01:04
Dagoth Ur wrote:
So they should take down what was proven to be true because it makes Stalin look more like he really was? Stalin killed off almost all of the old bolsheviks, calling that anything less than monstrous is an insult to the bolsheviks as a whole.


According to the Soviet secret archives, Stalin voted against executions. But Molotov managed to convince the central committee that executions should be made. I am not taking a stand on either Molotov or Stalin's side here, I am just pointing at the fact that your facts are wrong. But that is not new when it comes to trotskyists.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 17 Nov 2011, 12:25
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New Comrade (Say hi & be nice to me!)
Post 17 Nov 2011, 12:53
I don't call myself an "anybody-ist" but if I did I'd have no problem with "Stalinist" cause he was a badass mofo
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 12 Jul 2005, 01:11
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Post 01 Mar 2012, 13:01
The term exists because an "ist" had to exist during a very difficult time during the Soviet Union. Leninism was the doctrine that made a revolution happen. The revolution had to reorganize under NEP and somebody had to set policy to move the revolution forward. That's why we have Stalinism and not Kirovism or Buharinism. Naturally some will say that Trotsky had the right way. the fact of the matter is, Stalin was there, and not Trotsky, Trotsky is completely Hypothetical and therefore "perfect" and Stalins policies were actual and therefore imperfect. The Scientific nature of philosophy is that we can learn from Stalin's policies and dream about Trotsky's.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 29 Jun 2010, 16:09
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Komsomol
Post 02 Mar 2012, 03:37
I will recognize some of Stalin's policies and accomplishments, while recognizing some of his various grave mistakes, but I'll never "dream" of Trotsky's.
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