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Stalin and his cult

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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 14 Jul 2008, 20:01
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Post 17 Mar 2010, 09:58
Does anyone have good sources to prove that Stalin was opposed to his cult of personality?
"Don't know why i'm still surprised with this shit anyway." - Loz
Loz
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 06 Dec 2009, 23:17
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Post 17 Mar 2010, 15:29
Probably not.
Since he even ordered his photos to be retouched...
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 30 May 2009, 19:37
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Post 17 Mar 2010, 17:24
I don't have any evidence, but his ways of talking is so plain (just like a normal man):
Stalin wrote:
Do not imagine that I am going to tell you anything extraordinary. The toast that I wish to raise is as simple as it is informal. I would like to drink to the health of those on the lower echelons whose conditions are little envied, to those who are considered as the “screws” of the immense machine of the government but without whom, all of us marshals or commanding officers of the fronts or armies wouldn’t be worth, if I may so express it, a jot. Because it requires only for one screw to disappear and all is finished, r drink to the health of simple folk, ordinary and modest, the “screws” which ensure the functioning of our enormous state machine in all its aspects: science, economy, war. They are numerous and their name is legion because they comprise dozens of millions. These are modest people, no-one writes about them,their situation is mediocre and their status is low, but these people support us as the base supports the summit. I drink to the health of these people, our most respected comrades.

That his speech at a reception in the Kremlin, 25th June, 1945. I don't think Stalin is a person that would like to have a cult of himself.
"Stalin brought us up — on loyalty to the people, He inspired us to labor and to heroism!" Soviet Anthem 1944.
Let's work hard and do valorous deed!
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Sep 2006, 22:05
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Post 17 Mar 2010, 21:46
By that standard George Dubya wouldn't have appreciated such a thing. Stalin's way of talking has absolutely no bearing on his view of his cult. The proof is in the history. He had every chance to stop this cult. But instead allowed resources to be wasted on statues of himself and put his own name and his 'glorious' accomplishments in the new anthem. Stalin was much too central to soviet society to possibly have been against his cult. Plus doesn't everyone with a personality cult claim there isn't one?
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 19 Apr 2008, 03:25
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Post 17 Mar 2010, 22:09
Didn't his closest associates pretty much force him to take complete control during the war and he was reluctant and depressed at first.
Once capitalists know we can release the Kraken, they'll back down and obey our demands for sure.
_Comrade Gulper
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Sep 2006, 22:05
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Post 17 Mar 2010, 22:13
What? Then why didn't he give it up when the war was over? Also I've heard more than one account of Stalin's stategical incompetence.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 06 Dec 2009, 23:17
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Post 17 Mar 2010, 22:16
He locked himself in his room for a whole day after the nazi attack.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 19 Apr 2008, 03:25
Embalmed
Post 17 Mar 2010, 22:26
Yeah didn't Molotov and Beria have to talk him out of his breakdown?
Once capitalists know we can release the Kraken, they'll back down and obey our demands for sure.
_Comrade Gulper
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 07 Oct 2004, 22:04
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
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Post 17 Mar 2010, 22:43
It must be remembered that Stalin wasn't so all powerful as people sometimes make him out to be, so the choice to promote the cult wasn't solely his to make. Nevertheless, I agree with Dagoth that he was too central a figure both politically and publically to be strongly against it and/or unable to change the situation. Also, Dagoth, Stalin did give up a lot of his responsibilities for governance after the war, as it took a lot out of him.

Stalin could have supported his cult out of the belief that it was necessary for simple people to have idols to look up to in light of the weakening role of the Orthodox Church. It must be remembered that the generation that grew up under Stalin were mostly illiterate peasants who farmed or moved to cities to work in factories. Without the benefit of education, which promotes critical thinking, the Stalin cult may have been viewed as just what the people needed to get them through the arduous events that the country faced during his leadership (collectivization, the purges, World War 2, rebuilding, etc.). And to deny that it did have this positive role amongst the masses would be ignoring historical events and the recollections of people who participated in them. I'll never forget how my grandmother, a deeply religious person who was in her formative years under Stalin, and who faced all the turmoil of that time, had metal portraits of Stalin and Lenin alongside her religious icons. Of course, probably very commonly known here is the battle cry 'For Stalin', which often shouted during advance in the Great Patriotic War.
"The thing about capitalism is that it sounds awful on paper and is horrendous in practice. Communism sounds wonderful on paper and when it was put into practice it was done pretty well for what they had to work with." -MiG
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Sep 2006, 22:05
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Post 17 Mar 2010, 22:52
I know you mean this to be touching but to me it is tragic. I can think of nothing worse than my legacy becoming an issue of worship. Although icons in general inspire distrust in me, but then as a former Sunni that makes sense. This goes doubly for people whose names become interconnected with the state. And to be perfectly clear I'm not claiming that staling was autocratic or by any means under complete control, just that he had entirely too much.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 07 Oct 2004, 22:04
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Post 17 Mar 2010, 23:14
I don't mean it to be touching (although it's something I repeat often because it's difficult to forget such a thing), but rather mention it because it was an objective fact that many people of the Stalin period did view his cult as a substitute for religion that motivated them in difficult times. That Soviet society was able to skip over this cult, which I agree over the long term would be impossible and inappropriate to maintain, was a sign that after serving its purpose, the cult could be gotten rid of without destabilizing the society. In one generation -that which grew up in the post-war years and gained consciousness during the Khrushchev thaw, Soviet society went from being simple, hard-working, and mostly uneducated to one of high education and complexity. In my personal experience this is exemplified most vividly by the kinds of films that began to appear from the early 1960s: clever, interesting, and able to bring up complex and difficult issues, and without a hint of ideological dogma.
"The thing about capitalism is that it sounds awful on paper and is horrendous in practice. Communism sounds wonderful on paper and when it was put into practice it was done pretty well for what they had to work with." -MiG
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 06 Dec 2009, 23:17
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Post 18 Mar 2010, 00:15
This cult of personality was an ominous sign that Soviet union wasn't on a right course.It wasn't able to supersede old (pre)feudal religious feelings,but simply altered them and replaced God with Lenin-(Stalin).The idea of Communism became a sort of "opium for the masses" as it was put on the pedestal of metaphysical "future" and served as an excuse for aberrations of the today, and,in the end,it was a powerful weapon of the state.
It was a weakness that hampered the development of a new Soviet Man,a free man building communism.It's the basis of apathetic "H*o*m*o Sovieticus". EDIT:RETARDED AUTO CENSURE! I SAID Homo and it was censored to Homosexual! This is just stupid!
But then,again,it was necessary in first difficult decades of Soviet Union and building of socialism,but should have been superseded with a new, radically socialist mentality in the 70's...
Last edited by Loz on 18 Mar 2010, 10:17, edited 1 time in total.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 30 May 2009, 19:37
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Post 18 Mar 2010, 06:34
Yes, the cult should be remove to create a new society (And it had been removed, thanks to Khrushchev, that is one of the good things he had done, I am saying the truth, I don't like the cult of the great leaders) but it is a minor problem. I think the biggest problem is economic problem. The Soviet Union had an economical problem in 70s (Brezhnev), that is the reason Soviet Union collapsed.
"Stalin brought us up — on loyalty to the people, He inspired us to labor and to heroism!" Soviet Anthem 1944.
Let's work hard and do valorous deed!
Soviet cogitations: 10005
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 14 Jul 2008, 20:01
Ideology: Trotskyism
Philosophized
Post 18 Mar 2010, 06:46
Quote:
By that standard George Dubya wouldn't have appreciated such a thing. Stalin's way of talking has absolutely no bearing on his view of his cult. The proof is in the history. He had every chance to stop this cult. But instead allowed resources to be wasted on statues of himself and put his own name and his 'glorious' accomplishments in the new anthem.


What should he have done in your opinion? Forbid people to hang his portraits in their rooms? Tear down statues that were respected and loved by the population? Ban them from shouting his name at rallies or during the war? I agree that he should have taken steps against the cult, but the situation was certainly not as easy for him as you seem to think.

Quote:
Yes, the cult should be remove to create a new society (And it had been removed, thanks to Khrushchev, that is one of the good things he had done, I am saying the truth) but it is a minor problem. I think the biggest problem is economic problem. The Soviet Union had an economical problem in 70s (Brezhnev), that is the reason Soviet Union collapsed.


This is probably the most correct interpretation of post-Stalin Soviet history that can be given in three lines.
"Don't know why i'm still surprised with this shit anyway." - Loz
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 13 Feb 2008, 15:25
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Post 19 Mar 2010, 11:12
Stalin's daughter said he privately used to get very frustrated with the adoration he received. There's a good source for this in Grover Furr's work on him. Also, he would often try to humble himself in speeches, saying things like he was once an ordinary worker on the railways at some point, just like any ordinary guy (the transcripts will be on MIA I think).

I honestly can't see how a pragmatic person like Stalin would want to have a cult of personality set up around him. At most, I think he wanted to be source for morale during World War II. His decision to stay in Moscow when it looked like the city might fall is an example (incidentally, Churchill had similar plans if the Nazi's ever invaded England).
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Sep 2006, 22:05
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Post 19 Mar 2010, 11:45
Fellow Comrade wrote:
Stalin's daughter said he privately used to get very frustrated with the adoration he received. There's a good source for this in Grover Furr's work on him.


Interesting he didn't do anything about it. I dunno about you but if I didn't appreciate being called a hero I could do a lot to make sure no one would ever say it again, and I'm just a regular jackass. Stalin sat at the helm and you're telling me he couldn't say "don't put my face on those big banners". That would be the way a truly humble man would lead.

Quote:
Also, he would often try to humble himself in speeches, saying things like he was once an ordinary worker on the railways at some point, just like any ordinary guy (the transcripts will be on MIA I think).


You don't see how this plays into the image the stalin cult venerates? You don't call yourself a prophet, people around you do.

Quote:
I honestly can't see how a pragmatic person like Stalin would want to have a cult of personality set up around him. At most, I think he wanted to be source for morale during World War II. His decision to stay in Moscow when it looked like the city might fall is an example (incidentally, Churchill had similar plans if the Nazi's ever invaded England).


Now I can accept a certain level of heroism being applied to national leaders in times of war but Stalin's goes to far. A leader's face should not be on banners or statues or any such icons during life and I question their existence afterwards in excess. And what's worse is to be used as a political relic after death. Stalin avoided the fate he forced on Lenin.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 22 Nov 2009, 20:54
New Comrade (Say hi & be nice to me!)
Post 20 Mar 2010, 18:33
Quote:
Interesting he didn't do anything about it. I dunno about you but if I didn't appreciate being called a hero I could do a lot to make sure no one would ever say it again, and I'm just a regular jackass. Stalin sat at the helm and you're telling me he couldn't say "don't put my face on those big banners". That would be the way a truly humble man would lead.


Stalin : don't put my face on those big banners
""people"" : If not, what ?
Stalin : So, I will to punish you...

Can you punish people for making big banners with your face ? It is not believable.

But, the point I agree Dagoth Ur is that when the movie "Padenyie Berlina" is made : this movie is not only cult of personality, but, OVER-cult of personality.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f67vXMHE ... re=related
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Sep 2006, 22:05
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Philosophized
Post 20 Mar 2010, 21:34
Its not about punishment it's about refusing to play into a cult you supposedly do not like. I don't think it was beyond stalin's power to have his face kept off things. Mao ends up being even worse in this regard but perhaps that has more to do with the disasterous cultural revolution than it does with Mao's cult.

My overarcing point is this: if Stalin is to be believed in how much he "hated" his cult then why did he never act against it in any way?
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 19 Mar 2005, 20:08
Embalmed
Post 21 Mar 2010, 01:14
It's kind of hard. Personality cults usually begin with irony about how "the leader is great," semi-sarcastic praise like poems and posters with the leader. Then it starts to get a bit serious as the stakes rise and a clique forms around the leader that is as strong as the leader or stronger, relying on the idea of the leader's greatness for their own legitimacy. Speaking out against the personality cult also means speaking out against the clique and that doesn't always have the best results.
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"Bleh, i don't even know what i'm arguing for. What a stupid rant. Disregard what i wrote." - Loz
"Every time is gyros time" - Stalinista
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Sep 2006, 22:05
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Philosophized
Post 21 Mar 2010, 02:19
Stalin could have done it. One thing I'll say about the douche is this, he handled his shit.
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