Soviet cogitations: 2162 Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 01 Nov 2003, 13:17 Ideology: Other Forum Commissar
05 Jun 2012, 18:25
It is known that there was a lack of religious freedom in the Soviet Union under Lenin and Stalin. However to what extent did this reach? We know that under Xhruchev and Brezhnev there was a liberalisation of religion. There are stories of priests being crucified for refusing to renounce their faith. Similarly there are also stories of Muslims being thrown off the tops of buildings. When was the height of the persecution and was there any freedom at all, or was religious practice completely put down?
In essence what was the Soviet state's policy towards religious practice during these years?
Happiness is in your ability to love others. - Leo Tolstoy
Soviet cogitations: 162 Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 28 Feb 2012, 16:12 Ideology: Left Communism Pioneer
05 Jun 2012, 19:03
Political Interest wrote:
It is known that there was a lack of religious freedom in the Soviet Union under Lenin and Stalin. However to what extent did this reach? We know that under Xhruchev and Brezhnev there was a liberalisation of religion. There are stories of priests being crucified for refusing to renounce their faith. Similarly there are also stories of Muslims being thrown off the tops of buildings. When was the height of the persecution and was there any freedom at all, or was religious practice completely put down?
In essence what was the Soviet state's policy towards religious practice during these years?
Toleration for run-of-the-mill believers, anti-religious propaganda, repression of those priests regarded as counterrevolutionaries, which most priests were (although plenty priests weren't actually harmed). Repression on this context typically means jailed or shot by the ChK, not burnt alive or crucified like religious conservatives love to claim. As for throwing Muslims off roofs, it strikes me as very unlikely.
Soviet cogitations: 1015 Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 20 Jul 2011, 15:17 Party Member
05 Jun 2012, 19:28
I was wondering the same thing. For instance, the Catholic Church loves to cite how thousands of priests were killed during these years, but I wonder how many were actually killed because they were priests, and how many were killed because they sympathized with the tsar or conducted counterrevolutionary activities outside of their capacities as clerics.
Soviet cogitations: 3507 Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 07 Oct 2004, 22:04 Ideology: Marxism-Leninism Resident Soviet
05 Jun 2012, 19:49
Actually the liberalization came during Stalin's time, during the war, at which time the state and the Church created an alliance against the Nazis. As the war came to an end, churches that were destroyed by the occupation were rebuilt alongside the other buildings, and as I've mentioned elsewhere, Stalin proposed to create the equivalent of the Vatican in Moscow for Orthodox believers, though he was thwarted by CIA machinations in Greece. After Stalin's death, Khrushchev was the one who renewed the anti-religious campaign, and like many other erratic and poorly thought through Khrushchev policies, this one too was gradually reversed by the Brezhnev leadership after Khrushchev was removed.
The destruction or closure of churches and mosques was something that took place (partly spontaneously, partly through state action -in some cases even military action) during the early post-revolutionary period, when religion's alliance with the monarchy and the bourgeoisie made it unpopular among many ordinary people. The hostile attitude toward religion continued under Stalin into the 1940s until the beginning of the war. Hence the instances like the one you cite of the Soviets converting churches into non-religious buildings and firing or even prosecuting priests (I've never heard of something as brutal or primitive as a crucifiction, though, or of Muslims being thrown off rooftops). In the Soviet case in Central Asia, the government did have to wage a war against some landowners and warlords and their radical Islamist allies which lasted well into the 1930s, but it was more an insurgency/counterinsurgency operation mixed with propaganda and attempts to 'win hearts and minds' rather than a terror against those of faith.
Edit: With regard to the Catholic Church, the question was complicated by the fact that Catholicism had its base in a country outside the socialist bloc. I therefore presume that the Soviet authorities general tolerance for Orthodoxy and for Islam did not extend quite as easily to Catholics. However, this does not mean that they were targeted for extreme discrimination, especially in areas (Lithuania, for example) where Catholicism may have been the predominant religion, during the late Soviet period. Intolerance and outright banning was reserved for groups deemed sects, such as Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses.
"The thing about capitalism is that it sounds awful on paper and is horrendous in practice. Communism sounds wonderful on paper and when it was put into practice it was done pretty well for what they had to work with." -MiG
Soviet cogitations: 2162 Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 01 Nov 2003, 13:17 Ideology: Other Forum Commissar
23 Nov 2012, 20:15
If the Soviet religious policy was far more liberal than established history would have us believe then how can we account for the mass closure of churches and mosques?
According to Wkipedia: (1) "In the first five years after the Bolshevik revolution, 28 bishops and 1,200 priests were executed."
(2) "Between 1917 and 1935, 130,000 Orthodox priests were arrested. Of these, 95,000 were put to death. Many thousands of victims of persecution became recognized in a special canon of saints known as the "new martyrs and confessors of Russia"."
(3) "At no time before the mid to late 1930s did the Bolsheviks control the situation. They maintained that the clergy organized united resistance against the Soviet state. During the mid 1920s, Soviet officials in Nizhny Novgorod and other locations encountered religious groups successfully circulating anti-Soviet political materials. According to party officials, legal organizations served as fronts for oppositional activities."
Sochi has no mosque, though the Muslim population there is 20,000. In 2014 the city will host the Winter Olympics. Where, one wonders, will Muslim sportsmen pray five times a day? And why are there no mosques in a city, which was the capital of 19th century independent Circassia, with an entirely Muslim population?
The mosque there dates from the 19th century. In Stalin’s time it was closed and used as a warehouse. Now it is the only religious building in or near Sochi that has survived Soviet times. Tourists come to see it, Sochi Muslims come to pray there. In 2010 it was refurbished and reopened on the Muslim feast day of Uraza-bayram. The whole community took part in the reconstruction and Sochi inhabitants (Russians, Circassians, Daghestanis, Ingushes, Chechen and many more) helped too. The work was carried out by A. Koblev, a Circassian builder, who regards the mosque as a unique architectural building.
EASTER IN A GODLESS COUNTRY: Renewed Persecution of Christians
Easter in the Soviet Union is a period of renewed anti-religious propaganda. When a Christian festival occurs the Society of Atheists booms out its anti-God publicity with increased vigour. At Christmas and Easter time there are mocking processions in the streets which revile the beliefs and rites of Christianity.
The methods of the Atheists have, however, changed since 1930, and the persecution of religion is now in its fourth period. In the first period, from 1917 to 1921, religious people were persecuted by violent methods, such as terror, and innumerable priests were killed or sent to the prison islands of the North and to Siberia. When the New Economic Policy was introduced in 1921 a period of comparative toleration began, which was interrupted from time to time by outbursts of persecution, such as the trial of and death sentence upon the Catholic Archbishop Cepiak, in 1923.
When in 1928, however, the period of toleration ended and Stalin began on his course of rapidly turning Russia into an industrialised Socialist State by the Five-Year Plan, religion was again submitted to violent persecution.
RELIGION LIKE A NAIL
From 1928 to 1930 force was applied to the crushing of all religious sects and creeds. None was spared. The attack was not only against the Orthodox Church which had been a pillar of Tsarism, but against Baptists, Evangelists, Mohammedans, and the innumerable sects which had arisen. That attempt to crush religion by force in 1928 to 1930 failed. Lunacharsky, once Commissar for Education, summed up the failure pithily when he stated: “Religion is like a nail: the more you hit it the deeper it goes in.”
That saying has guided the anti-religious policy of the Bolsheviks since 1930, when the fourth period began, and the dominant note had been, “We must fight religion by more subtle methods, by science and by propaganda.”
THE NEW POLICY
Thus the Atheists have now declared themselves against physical force and state: “We are for the ideological form, of struggle, for deep cultural propaganda.” Lecturers tour the country to show that religion is unscientific, that religion is mere superstition, that religion: is symbolic of dirt, disease, and drunkenness, while Atheism brings electric light, the aeroplane, and the tractor.
Atheism is associated with the correct teaching of biology, geography, physiology, chemistry, and other sciences. Religion is associated with all that is medieval, such as witches, charms, curses, water-sprites and ghosts. Why do the Communists fight against religion? Their policy is guided by the slogan, “Atheism is a weapon of class-warfare.” Because there has been renewed class warfare since 1928, the battle for Atheism has been waged with greater energy. The Communists claim that the classes which they are destroying are not dying without a struggle and that they are using religion as a weapon to wreck the building of Socialism. religion as a weapon to wreck the building of Socialism. Religion as a weapon to wreck the building of Socialism.
“LETTERS FROM GOD”
Religious people, the Communists complain, are fighting against the Socialist collective farms. The priests have been writing letters which they purported to have come from God, stating, “I, God, tell you that the collective farm is the work of the Devil.”
According to the Communist, religious peasants have been warning the others that if they entered the collective farms they would go to hell. The Communists complain that the religious peasants have been agitating against scientific methods, and that they are still in favour of: the three-field system, because, as they say, “Even God is for the three-field system, because God is for the Trinity, and the Trinity is symbolic for the three-field system.”
The Communists state that the religious festivals do harm to agriculture and that the peasants drink so much during these festivals that they do not ‘work for many days and, thus wreck the spring sowing. The Communists are against religion because they claim that religion upholds the old capitalist world and that the churches are merely tools of Rockefeller, Ford, and Deterding.
“Why are there missionaries in the world?” they ask; and they reply, “The missionaries are there because the capitalists and the imperialists have sent them.”
CHILD ATHEISTS
Thus the Bolsheviks are attempting to crush religion. Although they have stated that they wish to abandon forceful methods, thousands of preachers and priests are now half-starving in prison. How great, has their Success been? Among children the .propaganda. and the teaching in the schools have undoubtedly had a great effect. If you ask Russian children, “Do you believe in God?” most will answer emphatically, “No.”
But there are many young people who believe in God. One Russian girl told me that she believed in God, but that she was going to join the Young Communist League. “How can you join the Young Communist League when you believe in God?” I asked. She replied, “Of course I can. I shall pretend to be a Communist and make wonderful Communist speeches, but all the time I shall believe in God,” and she added a phrase which impressed me deeply, “For what my lips say, my heart need not believe.”
The hearts of the Russian people often remain Christian while their lips utter vilifications against God. Religion has not been crushed.
NEW SECTS
There has been a religious revival in the last year. Numerous sects have sprung up. Personal religion has grown. Deep human emotion is taking the place of ceremony. Mr. Hessell Tiltman was quite right when he said: “They may shoot every Christian in Russia and men and women there will still nurse the image of God in their hearts. Long after the last anti-God poster has faded on the hoardings, the last lesson in Atheism been given in the schools, and the present Soviet leaders are no more, the1ove of God will be found in. Russian hearts. For the Communists, who are so fond of quoting the proverbs of Lenin, have forgotten one proverb that Lenin did not write, but the truth of which is attested by all history. That proverb runs: “The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the Church.”
Soviet cogitations: 3766 Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 30 Mar 2010, 01:20 Ideology: Other Leftist Forum Commissar
24 Nov 2012, 03:20
The liberalization of state attitudes towards religion didn't really come into effect until during the GPW when Stalin and friends concluded that under the circumstances it was more useful to have the church as an ally than an opponent. The Church had little choice but to go along with this as it was an improvement over previous arrangements. After the war, the anti-religious campaign was never really resumed, the overtly anti-religious organizations fell into disuse and a (largely) unofficial policy of tolerance came into effect.
This wiki page has some information, although it seems to have been significantly rewritten since I last checked it. League of Militant Atheists
Soviet cogitations: 3507 Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 07 Oct 2004, 22:04 Ideology: Marxism-Leninism Resident Soviet
24 Nov 2012, 04:22
PI wrote:
Will you dismiss this all as anti-Soviet propaganda?
No. I've mentioned some of the reasons and motivations for anti-religious persecution during the early Soviet period, and broadly outlined above how that changed over time.
However, reading your links, it got me to doing a bit of research and seeing interesting differences between the English and Russian wikipedia articles on the subject, one in particular worth noting. In the English language article, the author cites a work by William Husband, which estimates 95,000 (!) priests put to death. The Russian language article notes that between 1917 and 1922 an estimated 28 bishops and 1,200 priests were killed, but there is no mention of this supposed 95,000. In fact upon quick review none of the Russian language wiki articles on the subject discuss the large numbers supposedly killed in the 1930s as part of the organized anti-religious campaign, though a couple vaguely mention the social and physical destruction of the Church and its clergy. It is certainly a possibility that priests were killed in this period, and many were definitely imprisoned, but the rapid resurgence of the Church during the Second World War (the reopening of hundreds of parishes and thousands of churches) makes it unlikely that so many were killed. Some sources I've read in the past, such as Suny's The Soviet Experiment actually note that the 1936 constitution stabilized Church-state relations, guaranteeing the freedom of religion (though also guaranteeing the freedom of anti-religious propaganda), and allowing the return of many elements of the old big holidays of Christmas and Easter.
Among all the real and alleged victims of the Soviet system I don't think I've ever come across the figure of 100,000 priests killed. Husband's guestimate, like those of many Western academics, may have been based on the assumption that if much of the old church order was liquidated, it meant the physical destruction of most of the people involved, which, as in the case of the Kulaks, just wasn't the case.
"The thing about capitalism is that it sounds awful on paper and is horrendous in practice. Communism sounds wonderful on paper and when it was put into practice it was done pretty well for what they had to work with." -MiG
Soviet cogitations: 2162 Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 01 Nov 2003, 13:17 Ideology: Other Forum Commissar
24 Nov 2012, 10:21
Shigalyov wrote:
The liberalization of state attitudes towards religion didn't really come into effect until during the GPW when Stalin and friends concluded that under the circumstances it was more useful to have the church as an ally than an opponent. The Church had little choice but to go along with this as it was an improvement over previous arrangements. After the war, the anti-religious campaign was never really resumed, the overtly anti-religious organizations fell into disuse and a (largely) unofficial policy of tolerance came into effect.
I think so. Even still this only came about as a pragmatic measure. Stalin must have known that the enemy could use the resentment felt at religious suppression in order to gain the support of the populace.
Shigalyov wrote:
This wiki page has some information, although it seems to have been significantly rewritten since I last checked it. League of Militant Atheists
No. I've mentioned some of the reasons and motivations for anti-religious persecution during the early Soviet period, and broadly outlined above how that changed over time.
Good that you acknowledge this and do not twist facts.
soviet78 wrote:
However, reading your links, it got me to doing a bit of research and seeing interesting differences between the English and Russian wikipedia articles on the subject, one in particular worth noting. In the English language article, the author cites a work by William Husband, which estimates 95,000 (!) priests put to death. The Russian language article notes that between 1917 and 1922 an estimated 28 bishops and 1,200 priests were killed, but there is no mention of this supposed 95,000. In fact upon quick review none of the Russian language wiki articles on the subject discuss the large numbers supposedly killed in the 1930s as part of the organized anti-religious campaign, though a couple vaguely mention the social and physical destruction of the Church and its clergy. It is certainly a possibility that priests were killed in this period, and many were definitely imprisoned, but the rapid resurgence of the Church during the Second World War (the reopening of hundreds of parishes and thousands of churches) makes it unlikely that so many were killed. Some sources I've read in the past, such as Suny's The Soviet Experiment actually note that the 1936 constitution stabilized Church-state relations, guaranteeing the freedom of religion (though also guaranteeing the freedom of anti-religious propaganda), and allowing the return of many elements of the old big holidays of Christmas and Easter.
Well maybe we can conclude that regardless of how many were killed, a certain number certainly were even if we are not certain of the number. Also it is undeniable that in the early 1930s many churches and mosques were closed.
soviet78 wrote:
Among all the real and alleged victims of the Soviet system I don't think I've ever come across the figure of 100,000 priests killed. Husband's guestimate, like those of many Western academics, may have been based on the assumption that if much of the old church order was liquidated, it meant the physical destruction of most of the people involved, which, as in the case of the Kulaks, just wasn't the case.
In any case it is undeniable that religion was attacked during the Stalin period. I know that this is no problem for most communists so long as they can prove that not many people were killed.
This link allows you to read about the individual histories of churches and mosques in Kazan. In most cases each one faced being closed at some point. The discussion of this fact in multiple sources as well as it being recorded here in the histories of individual religious buildings suggests that it did indeed take place:http://www.kazan-memory.uni-tuebingen.de/kirchenengl.html
I can also provide other examples.
Edit:
I have found something which can further develop the argument that there was persecution.
This is from the Russian Wikipedia:
Quote:
"В 1918 году в Ставропольской епархии были казнены 37 священнослужителей, в числе которых — Павел Калиновский, 72 лет и священник Золотовский, 80 лет. Некоторые убийства осуществлялись публично в сочетании с различными показательными унижениями. В частности, священнослужитель старец Золотовский был предварительно переодет в женское платье и затем повешен. 8 ноября 1917 года царскосельский протоиерей Иоанн Кочуров был подвергнут продолжительным избиениям, затем был убит путём волочения по шпалам железнодорожных путей. В 1918 году три православных иерея в г. Херсоне были распяты на кресте. В декабре 1918 года епископ Соликамский Феофан (Ильменский) был публично казнён путём периодического окунания в прорубь и замораживания, будучи подвешенным за волосы, в Самаре бывший Михайловский епископ Исидор (Колоколов) был посажен на кол, вследствие чего умер. Епископ Пермский Андроник (Никольский) был захоронен в землю заживо. Архиепископ Нижегородский Иоаким (Левицкий) был казнен, согласно документально неподтверждённым данным, путём публичного повешения вниз головой в севастопольском соборе. Епископ Серапульский Амвросий (Гудко) был казнён путём привязывания к хвосту лошади; в Воронеже в 1919 году было одновременно убито 160 священников во главе с архиепископом Тихоном (Никаноровым), которого повесили на Царских вратах в церкви Митрофановского монастыря. В начале января 1919 года, в числе иных, был зверски умерщвлён епископ Ревельский Платон (Кульбуш)."
Translation: "In 1918, in Stavropol diocese 37 priests were executed, among them - Paul Kalinowski, 72 years and a priest Zolotovskii, 80 years. Some killings were carried out in public in conjunction with various illustrative humiliation. In particular, the elder priest Zolotovskii was previously disguised as a woman, and then hanged. November 8, 1917 Tsarskoe Archpriest John Kochurov long subjected to beatings, then was killed by drawing on the sleepers of railways. In 1918, three Orthodox priest in Kherson were crucified on the cross. In December 1918, Bishop Theophan Solikamsk (Ilmen) was publicly executed by periodically dipping into the hole and freezing, being hung by the hair, in Samara, a former St. Michael Bishop Isidore (Bell) was put on a stake, so that he died. Bishop of Perm Andronicus (Nicholas) was buried in the ground alive. Archbishop Joachim of Nizhny Novgorod (Levitsky) was executed, according to unconfirmed reports documented [67], by public hanging upside down in Sevastopol Cathedral. Serapulsky Bishop Ambrose (beeps) was executed by binding to the tail of a horse, in Voronezh in 1919 was both killed 160 priests led by Archbishop Tikhon (Nikanorova), who was hanged at the King's Gate in the church Mitrofanovskogo monastery. Beginning in January 1919, among other, was brutally murdered bishop Revel Plato (Kulbush)."
Furthermore: "По оценкам некоторых историков, с 1918 до конца 1930-х в ходе репрессий в отношении духовенства было расстреляно либо умерло в местах лишения свободы около 42 000 священнослужителей. Схожие данные по статистике расстрелов приводит Свято-Тихоновский Богословский институт, анализируя репрессии в отношении священнослужителей на основе архивных материалов. По их данным в 1918 году было 3000 расстрелов."
Translation: "According to some historians, from 1918 to the late 1930s during the repression of the clergy were executed or died in prison about 42,000 clergy. Similar statistics are shooting leads St. Tikhon Theological Institute, analyzing the repression of the clergy on the basis of archival materials. According to them in 1918 was 3,000 executions."
Therefore we can see that even in the Russian language there are many materials which suggest there was some level violence against the clergy.
Regardless of any numbers of those killed, if we can see from multiple sources that killings did take place, is it reasonable to deny they did? I know that Soviet78 does not deny it but some others like to marginalise these events.
Let us also look at the anti-religious legislation of the Soviet Union throughout various periods.
Soviet cogitations: 10566 Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 06 Dec 2009, 23:17 Philosophized
24 Nov 2012, 13:29
Killings of clergy happened in many revolutions. In Spain in particular there was a huge explosion of violence against religion in general and thousands of priests were lynched.
Soviet cogitations: 1857 Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 24 Jun 2011, 08:37 Party Member
24 Nov 2012, 18:03
The clergy had been staunch supporters of the old order, so repressions were going to occur. If the whites had won the civil war, it'd have been the other way around.
Soviet America is Free America!
Under communism, there is no freedom; you are not free to live in poverty, be homeless, to be without an education, to starve, or to be without a job
Soviet cogitations: 3507 Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 07 Oct 2004, 22:04 Ideology: Marxism-Leninism Resident Soviet
25 Nov 2012, 00:47
PI wrote:
I know that this is no problem for most communists so long as they can prove that not many people were killed.
It's not an issue of "fewer were killed so it's okay". It's an issue of taking ridiculous inflated mythological figures by anti-Soviet academics and bringing them back to reality. As I've mentioned elsewhere recently, there is nothing wrong with admitting mistakes and making apologies. There is something wrong in conceding to the outright propaganda and lies spread by your enemies. If we let our ideological enemies win the war of numbers (where we for the most part have access to state archives while they continue to use guestimates), we allow them to lump us in with Hitler and Nazism (not to mention the gift of absolution for the crimes of imperialism past and present), which is a trend that's been rising since the 1970s and especially since the end of the Cold War.
"The thing about capitalism is that it sounds awful on paper and is horrendous in practice. Communism sounds wonderful on paper and when it was put into practice it was done pretty well for what they had to work with." -MiG
05 Jun 2012, 18:25
