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UK European Union referendum

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Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?

Remain a member of the EU
5
25%
Leave the EU
12
60%
Don't know/other
3
15%
 
Total votes : 20
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 14 Jun 2013, 09:08
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Pioneer
Post 22 May 2016, 07:49
Middlesex University meeting, organised by Middlesex University UCU, Thursday 19th May 2016,

What does the EU Referendum Mean for Workers and the Higher Education sector?
A debate between Dr Marina Prentoulis of Another Europe is Possible and Will Podmore of Vote Leave.


Quote:
Thank you very much for inviting me to this meeting, may I congratulate everybody who has helped to organise this excellent initiative.
I am very pleased to see that Dr Prentoulis endorses the Leave campaign’s main point, that the EU as it stands is not a good thing. The EU is not a progressive cause. The French government is using emergency decree powers to impose cuts on workers’ employment rights and to attack trade unions. Mr Cameron tells us that the EU protects workers’ rights. So, what is the EU doing to protect French workers’ rights? Nothing.
The EU allied with the IMF is forcing poverty on the people of Greece. The EU that some claim protects workers’ rights instead demands the destruction of trade union rights as a condition of its bailouts. Dr Prentoulis said last year that austerity is not working. True. But now her party Syriza in power in Greece is imposing austerity. Last year, she rightly called the IMF’s proposals ‘undemocratic and absurd’. The EU endorsed these undemocratic and absurd proposals and Syriza is now imposing them on the Greek people, plus another 3 billion euros of cuts and higher taxes on the poor.
What has the EU done to higher education in Greece? Spending on HE cut from nearly €280 million in 2009 to €133 million in 2014. The secretary general of the Greek Rectors’ Conference says: “from the beginning of 2015, Greek universities have not received one euro from public funding.”
Mr Cameron tells us that the EU protects workers’ rights. So, what is the EU doing to protect Greek workers’ rights? Nothing.
Syriza embraces the euro and the EU which are inflicting this misery on the Greek people. Syriza thought it would reform the EU. Instead the EU reformed Syriza turning it into the EU’s enforcer. That’s what happens when you stay in the EU, you end up enforcing the poverty you claim to oppose.
Greece has to leave the euro. As Lord King, the ex-Governor of the Bank of England, recently wrote, “if the alternative is crushing austerity, continuing mass unemployment, and no end in sight to the burden of debt, then leaving the euro area may be the only way to plot a route back to economic growth and full employment. The long-term benefits outweigh the short-term costs.”
Mr Cameron tells us that the EU is a force for peace, that it prevents a hypothetical war inside Europe. Let’s look at some real wars and see what this peace-loving EU did about them. The EEC was born in the middle of France’s dirty colonial war against Algeria. The EEC endorsed this war. Bush and Blair’s war against Iraq? The EU endorsed it. Mr Cameron’s war against Libya? The EU endorsed it. The EU is NATO’s soft power. The EU is an agreement to export wars, to unite for wars against less developed countries in Africa and the Middle East.
For more than 50 years British governments have promised to reform the EU. Before we even joined the EEC, Harold Macmillan talked of reforming it. Thirty years ago, Neil Kinnock talked of reforming it. Mr Cameron talks of reforming it. And now Dr Prentoulis talks of reforming it.
But how? The EU’s acquis stops us reforming it. The European Commission outvotes us to stop us reforming it. The Council of Ministers outvotes us to stop us reforming it. Even the toothless European Parliament outvotes us to stop us reforming it. And the European Court of Justice overrules us to stop us reforming it. The EU is unreformable.
As European Commission President Juncker said, “There can be no democratic choice against the European treaties.” When we cannot change the laws under which we live, we have no democracy. Inside the EU we are not free to change policies we oppose, not free to vote out leaders we oppose. If we stay in the EU, we stay on the conveyor belt towards a single EU state. The EU tells us you have no choice, resistance is futile. But outside the EU, we do have choices.
The EU wants complete Economic Union, Monetary Union, Financial Union, Fiscal Union and Political Union by 2025 at the latest, to ‘be developed within the framework of the European Union’, so it applies to us too. They want a new EU Treaty next year. As French President François Hollande asked, “Do you really want to participate in a common state? That’s the question.”
The EU is not a market. Why would a market need a Parliament, an army, a supreme court, its own currency, its own flag, its own passport and its own national anthem? We don’t have to be in the EU to trade with it. Nobody says we have to be part of the USA to trade with it. We don’t have to accept the US Constitution to trade with the USA, we don’t have to obey their Supreme Court rulings, we don’t have to salute their flag, we don’t have to have a US passport, we don’t have to sing their national anthem. The USA and 164 other countries sell their goods to customers in the EU without being in the EU.
UCU Congress unanimously opposed the EU’s Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership. TTIP is not a trade agreement, it is a giant protection racket run by giant corporations, US and European. Even the government’s own internal study concluded that it had ‘few or no benefits to the UK, while having meaningful economic and political costs’. TTIP is economic war against public services, against our NHS, so defeating TTIP protects our services and our NHS. TTIP is also economic war against the world’s developing countries, so defeating TTIP is an act of solidarity with developing countries.
Inside the EU, we are stuck in the services-destroying, NHS-destroying TTIP. If we were still in the EU and TTIP is ratified, we would be locked into it. President Obama told us that leaving the EU means no TTIP for us. Thank you Mr President. Leaving the EU would sink TTIP, so voting to leave the EU is a vote to save our NHS. Voting to leave the EU is an act of solidarity with developing countries.
Europe’s commissioner for health wants the EU to control member states’ health policies. And David Cameron, the man who put Jeremy Hunt in charge of our NHS, tells us that our NHS is safe in the EU. The only way to keep our NHS safe is to leave the EU.
We have excellent universities in Britain. No government should do anything to harm them. But of course government imposed tuition fees, which have harmed students, which happened while we were still in the EU. Attacks on our wages and conditions, on our union members, like the threat to sack UCU reps at London Met, are happening while we are in the EU. Mr Cameron tells us that the EU protects workers’ rights. So, what is the EU doing to protect UCU members’ rights? Nothing.
When Mr Cameron tells us that the EU protects workers’ rights, he is saying that his EU protects us from him, which is absurd. As we have seen, the EU doing nothing to protect workers’ rights.
Most EU technology and research programmes are designed to work with non-EU countries, so we could still get EU funding after we leave. Non-EU members Norway and Switzerland get EU funds for research. Non-EU Israel and Switzerland work in major European research initiatives like the Horizon 2020 programme. Non-EU members work in the European Research Infrastructure Consortium. In the EU-funded Ebola research programme, Oxford and Stirling Universities and the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine work with universities in 11 other EU countries, and with universities from Switzerland. Since we have some of the world’s best universities and research institutions, we would still be a prime choice of partner.
What will the result mean for funding for the university sector? HEFCE confirms funding of £3.7 billion for financial year 2016-17 which will stand whether we are in or out of the EU. The same applies to the £4.6 billion a year science and technology budget, which is ring-fenced and protected.
We do not have to be in the EU to benefit from the EU’s Erasmus student mobility programme. Non-EU Switzerland, Turkey and Macedonia are in it; nearly every country in the world has opted in to parts of it. Why shouldn’t an independent Britain continue to support it too?
After leaving the EU, students could still study overseas and our universities would keep working with international education bodies. EU education cooperation schemes allow access to countries that are not EU members.
Staff mobility is vital. We do not have to be in the EU to have free movement of staff and students. 14% of academic staff in our universities are nationals of other EU member states. Good. 6% of students in our universities are from elsewhere in the EU. Fine. Foreign students have been coming to study in Britain since the 1300s.
Switzerland and Norway have free movement agreements with the EU. There is strong exchange of students between the EU and independent Iceland, Norway and Switzerland. We do not have to be in the EU to continue to work with academics from around the world.
If you fear what the Tories might do to us, why vote for what they want us to do? If we voted to stay in, we give Mr Cameron the green light to destroy us. The reality is that Dr Prentoulis is telling us to do what Mr Cameron wants, all the rest is just gesture, just rhetoric.
A recent poll found that 12 per cent want ‘ever closer union’ which is the only Stay option actually on the table. 26 per cent want our relationship with the EU to stay the same. But there is no option of stay the same: the EU is charging towards ever closer union, a single state. Remember what President Hollande said, “Do you really want to participate in a common state? That’s the question.”
37 per cent want us to stay in, but reduce the EU’s powers. This is the notion that we can reform the EU, but as we have seen this is not possible. There is no option of stay in and reduce the EU’s powers: the EU is still charging towards ever closer union, a single state. The only way to reduce the EU’s powers is to leave it.
So, add this 26 per cent and this 37 per cent to the 18 per cent who want to Leave, then 81 per cent of us oppose the ‘ever closer union’ we endorse if we vote to stay in. 81 per cent of us oppose the EU as it is bound to be.
If you want less Europe, vote leave. If you want security, vote leave. If you want a trade-only deal with the EU vote Leave. If you don’t want to be in an EU state, vote leave. As François Hollande said, “The only road for those who are not convinced of Europe is to leave Europe …. It is the logical path.”
If we vote Remain, we endorse Cameron and Osborne. We endorse what the EU did, and is still doing, to Greece. If we vote Remain, we send a very clear signal to the EU that we want to be part of a single EU state, that we want to be part of everything it has done, everything it is doing and everything it will do.
The point of a referendum is that the whole people decide, it is sovereignty, it is democracy. It is control, it is power. We the people are in charge – but only for a day. It should be for longer. After the vote, we need to keep this control, to hold this responsibility.
A referendum is not a popularity contest. It is not an election; it is not voting for one leader or against another. It is not backing one party or opposing another. The referendum is one question, do we the people decide our future or not?
The world is riven by class — not race, gender, age or disability. There is only one human race, and any ideas that promote divisions between us do the work of capitalism.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 14 Jun 2013, 09:08
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Pioneer
Post 25 May 2016, 14:16
https://www.change.org/p/jeremy-corbyn- ... ng-classes

Petitioning Leader of Labour Party Jeremy Corbyn MP
Vote with your conscience - the EU is a coup against democracy and the working classes


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The world is riven by class — not race, gender, age or disability. There is only one human race, and any ideas that promote divisions between us do the work of capitalism.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 29 Sep 2011, 13:51
Party Member
Post 24 Jun 2016, 08:42
Goodbye Cameron, you scumbag bourgeois pig. As for the EU, is this the beginning of the end?
Image


My laws shall act more pleasure than command,
And with my prick I'll govern all the land.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 19 Sep 2005, 13:48
Embalmed
Post 24 Jun 2016, 09:26
I feel sick.
Now what is this…
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 14 Jun 2013, 09:08
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Pioneer
Post 24 Jun 2016, 14:11
It is a tribute to the courage and independence of mind of the British working class,
The world is riven by class — not race, gender, age or disability. There is only one human race, and any ideas that promote divisions between us do the work of capitalism.
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Soviet cogitations: 143
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 14 Jun 2013, 09:08
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Pioneer
Post 26 Jun 2016, 03:10
The world is riven by class — not race, gender, age or disability. There is only one human race, and any ideas that promote divisions between us do the work of capitalism.
Soviet cogitations: 12389
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 18 Apr 2010, 04:44
Ideology: None
Philosophized
Post 26 Jun 2016, 03:21
I honestly haven't made up my mind how I feel about this. Instinctively, anything that thwarts the will of Merkel and her fellow austerity ghouls can't be that bad. On the other hand, doesn't this set the stage for yet another showdown between Britain of the seas and Germany of the land?

It's amazing how much the world situation is resetting itself to 1914, and this seems like yet another tolling of that bell.
Miss Strangelove: "You feed giants laxatives so goblins can mine their poop before the gnomes get to it."
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Sep 2006, 22:05
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Philosophized
Post 26 Jun 2016, 08:30
Fantastic news.
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Loz
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 06 Dec 2009, 23:17
Philosophized
Post 26 Jun 2016, 08:45
I don't really have an opinion on this.
We'll see how it ends up though. Frau Merkel may punish the Brits so hard others will think twice before doing something similar, and it may be just the wind to the sails of the more pro-centralist Europeans.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 18 Apr 2010, 04:44
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Philosophized
Post 26 Jun 2016, 08:53
Loz wrote:
Frau Merkel may punish the Brits so hard others will think twice before doing something similar, and it may be just the wind to the sails of the more pro-centralist Europeans.

At least this time they'll be the Central Powers. Again. Instead of the Axis. Again.

Would Benelux and Italy really side with Germany? France?

The lesser states from the Wrong Side Of The Tracks would have to choose as well. A few might go over to Vladi.
Miss Strangelove: "You feed giants laxatives so goblins can mine their poop before the gnomes get to it."
Loz
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 06 Dec 2009, 23:17
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Post 26 Jun 2016, 09:01
TBH i don't know. But economy dictates that they should. Otherwise it's gonna turn out ugly for everyone.

Anyway i don't think Germany has even been this powerful in its entire history, despite having not having an army anymore.

Though i doubt anyone will go to Vladimir because Russia's economy is crap ( the size of Italy, just for perspective ) and still failing. Russia can barely support its quasi-republics in Eastern Ukraine. Even Belarus which is in a union with Russia is coming closer to the EU.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 21 Sep 2013, 03:08
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Post 26 Jun 2016, 15:37
Now let's see if this has the cascade effect throughout Europe its supporters hope for, or if it's just going to strengthen Germany's hold in the continent by removing the main pressure against it while bringing slash-and-burn Thatcherites like Johnson to power in the UK.

Also, if the cascade effect does occur, let's see if the Syriza/Podemos left can seize this or if it continues its rightward trajectory to outright fascists taking front and center in places like France. Because I'd hope we can all agree, as bad as the austerity-ghoul anti-democratic Eurocrats are, they are not Front National.

All in all, I give this maybe a 1 in 4 chance of having been a good idea. Maybe. If Corbyn had the courage to take front and center and seize the issue from the right, more like 50% because then it just depends on whether other countries follow suit. But I really don't blame him for not risking playing useful idiot for Johnson and UKIP.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 18 Apr 2010, 04:44
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Philosophized
Post 26 Jun 2016, 22:55
According to Fox News, a weaker British pound is immediately compensated for by American tourist dollars, equating to Business As Usual.

Meanwhile, Scotland and Northern Ireland voted to stay, which wasn't exactly unpredictable.

I have to agree with Loz that an EU with Frau Merkel at the helm and no serious opposition from Britain is a wet dream come true for the Germans - the ultimate "bloodless coup."

So we have Britain gearing up for economic war against Germany, with France, Benelux, and Italy in the balance. Meanwhile, Russia remains the wild card to the East.

We've seen this movie before.
Miss Strangelove: "You feed giants laxatives so goblins can mine their poop before the gnomes get to it."
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 21 Sep 2013, 03:08
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Post 26 Jun 2016, 23:24
For the record, while giving power to/emboldening Thatcherists and (in the continent) worse has been a concern of mine, the main reason I would have voted "remain" if I were British is exactly the fact that this stands a really good chance of just solidifying the Eurocrats' hold on the continent. You no longer have the British bourgeoisie clashing with the German bourgeoisie, keeping each-other to some small degree in check. Instead, letting the British ones run roughshod over their population and the German ones run roughshod over continental Europe.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 18 Apr 2010, 04:44
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Philosophized
Post 27 Jun 2016, 00:34
It also gives extra fuel to the secessionist movements in Scotland and Northern Ireland. It would be terrible to see a resumption of IRA violence and a new era of Scottish secessionist extremism. That's the last thing that island needs.

Meanwhile, it would give Merkel and co. a Schadenfreude-gasm as well as a possible excuse for sanctions and even "UN-led intervention." Talk abut ripping off the kid gloves.
Miss Strangelove: "You feed giants laxatives so goblins can mine their poop before the gnomes get to it."
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 21 Sep 2013, 03:08
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Post 27 Jun 2016, 01:45
Comrade Gulper wrote:
It also gives extra fuel to the secessionist movements in Scotland and Northern Ireland. It would be terrible to see a resumption of IRA violence and a new era of Scottish secessionist extremism. That's the last thing that island needs.

Disagreed there. The only clear-cut redeeming feature of this is Scotland's motion to leave and become its own Norway-style social democracy thing. It's a minor blow to imperial organs like the Commonwealth and to London's financial power, but still a blow. And it frees the Scottish people from ever having to deal with a Tory government again.

The demographics in Ireland are also such that there'll probably be majority support for unity in 20 years time or so. Even without it, again a blow to said nasties.

Quote:
Meanwhile, it would give Merkel and co. a Schadenfreude-gasm as well as a possible excuse for sanctions and even "UN-led intervention." Talk abut ripping off the kid gloves.

Scottish secessionists have been pretty non-violent, I don't think you could get an excuse for intervention with them. Maybe pissed off Glaswegians drunkenly rioting if their overwhelming referendum demand isn't met, in which case, I can't say I blame them considering literally every county in Scotland voted "remain."

If Sinn Fein's demand for a referendum in Northern Ireland aren't met, there you might see renewed IRA activity.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 07 Oct 2004, 22:04
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Resident Soviet
Post 27 Jun 2016, 21:33
Are you 'remain' Eurocrats for real? Didn't like all of the UK's many communist parties support Brexit? I can't believe I'm reading this on the Stalinist hub of the internet.


For the record (some of the smaller parties haven't yet released statements, but most of them too apart from one seem to have issued pamphlets in favor of leaving):

http://www.communist-party.org.uk/brita ... -axis.html

http://www.cpbml.org.uk/news/britain-shakes-world

https://yclbritain.wordpress.com/2016/0 ... on-brexit/


MissStrangelove wrote:
Because I'd hope we can all agree, as bad as the austerity-ghoul anti-democratic Eurocrats are, they are not Front National.


Sorry MissStrangelove, but as in the Trump thread(s) I can't agree to that. As a Russian, given the terrible civil war in fraternal Ukraine, inspired by Washington and Brussels, I just can't agree that a Hollande (who dares call himself a 'socialist' btw!) is less bad than Le Pen, who has publicly blamed the EU for the crisis in Ukraine. I'd probably be thinking the same thing if I was from the Middle East, given Le Pen's thinking on the Western-sponsored/inspired conflicts there:

http://newobserveronline.com/us-british ... en-oxford/

All in all, domestic politics is important, but as an outsider, if the choice is between Trump/Clinton or Front National/smooth-talking mass-murdering Eurocrats, I'm for the unknown quantity that doesn't have the blood of hundreds of thousands of innocents on their hands.
"The thing about capitalism is that it sounds awful on paper and is horrendous in practice. Communism sounds wonderful on paper and when it was put into practice it was done pretty well for what they had to work with." -MiG
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 21 Sep 2013, 03:08
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Post 27 Jun 2016, 23:57
soviet78 wrote:
Are you 'remain' Eurocrats for real? Didn't like all of the UK's many communist parties support Brexit? I can't believe I'm reading this on the Stalinist hub of the internet.

I read the CPGB(ML)'s pamphlets on the issue. I disagreed with them, they struck me as short-sighted. Giving the austerity ghouls a black eye is something any leftist can support, but not if it comes at the expense of strengthening Germany on the continent and giving the reins of power to Thatcherites at home. In that case, it's entirely self-defeating, just empowering austerity ghouls in their respective spheres and taking away what made their interests clash. Strengthening both.

Quote:
All in all, domestic politics is important, but as an outsider, if the choice is between Trump/Clinton or Front National/smooth-talking mass-murdering Eurocrats, I'm for the unknown quantity that doesn't have the blood of hundreds of thousands of innocents on their hands.

You keep framing this as a "domestic policy" vs. "foreign policy" thing. What the leadership in Russia cares about is not the be all and end all of "foreign policy," it's simply one clique of national elites' interest. Among many.

We've gone over the Trump issue, I see literally no evidence that he is in any way more anti-imperialist than Clinton. Considering the fact that he attacked the Obama administration for not doing enough quickly enough on Libya (Clinton backed the administration's still-horrendous-but-less policy), said in March that he wants boots on the ground in Iraq before reversing himself the next day and still airing the idea of "tactical nukes" there (Clinton endorses a still-horrendous-but-less no-fly-zone), and wants to tear up the Iran deal (Clinton begrudgingly accepted the administration's stance), actually I see the opposite. Meanwhile his unpredictability makes him harder to plan against, as any game theorist or military strategist will tell you. Telesur (full disclosure: technically my employers right now) are terrified of the idea of a Trump presidency, and PressTV has been vehemently anti-Trump as well while (rightly) maintaining criticism of Clinton. Even RT has been hedging lately, though it is slightly more anti-Clinton than anti-Trump.

Marine Le Pen actually opposes neoliberalism. Okay, great, cool beans. Considering Jean Marie Le Pen is a literal honest-to-god no-neo-attached Nazi and Marine amounts to a whitewashing, "clean cut" version of daddy's views (akin to BNP or David Duke's recent failed attempt at mainstreaming and actually inspiring them), I have every reason to assume what she wants is actually worse. The austerity ghouls should be fought tooth and nail, and are still preferable to blood-and-soil reactionary revanchists. I don't agree in the slightest with "first brown then red," and the reds who supported it were hauled to the camps like all the rest.

Also what in the hell are you doing linking a racist rag like The New Observer? If you look at their front page, it is literally article upon article of "we need to keep out the nonwhites." A cursory google search shows their biggest cross-linker is The Daily Stormer, a Nazi website.
Last edited by MissStrangelove on 28 Jun 2016, 03:56, edited 3 times in total.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 18 Apr 2010, 04:44
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Philosophized
Post 28 Jun 2016, 01:00
My main concern with Brexit is the impetus for instability that it gives to the UK, i.e., seeing the island erupt into civil war while at the same time giving an excellent excuse to start clearing out pesky minorities.

If you think instability in the Middle East gives the American defense industry a money grubbing erection, wait until the UK erupts into sectarian violence. We'll never leave there thanks to the excuse of "liberating the mother country." Alexander of Macedon used the same excuse to conquer the Greek city states that were the mother country to his own empire.

Meanwhile, an EU led by Frau Merkel is a step away from an openly oligarchic police state which is, in turn, opposed by the Russians and Chinese, which in their turn oppose Uncle Sam. It's the prelude to an interesting series of new alliances or an all-out clusterfrag.
Miss Strangelove: "You feed giants laxatives so goblins can mine their poop before the gnomes get to it."
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 08 Aug 2011, 22:59
Ideology: Other Leftist
Komsomol
Post 28 Jun 2016, 19:52
Kudos to Soviet78 for what he wrote in this thread!

And this is the level of debate people in the West are used to...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZO9JGSScMQ
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