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Ben-Gurion - socialist hero?

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Was Ben-Gurion a socialist?

Yes
3
18%
No
13
76%
Other
1
6%
 
Total votes : 17
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Soviet cogitations: 589
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 07 Dec 2013, 14:24
Ideology: Democratic Socialism
Unperson
Post 02 Jun 2014, 21:32
The following is from “Zionism, Socialism and United States Support for the Jewish Colonization of Palestine in the 1920s” by Lawrence Davidson, Arab Studies Quarterly, Summer 1996:


“For Ben Gurion it was Palestine’s destiny to be developed as a socialist Jewish state. (12) Here the model was the early Soviet state. ‘We are following a new path,’ Ben Gurion explained in 1921, ‘which contradicts developments in the whole world except Russia.’ (13) This led him to pay homage to the Soviet Union for ‘her great spiritual influence on our movement and our work in Palestine.’ (14) In these years Ben Gurion came to idolize Lenin and he even adopted the dress of the Soviet leaders – a quasi military uniform of rough wool. (15)”

12 David M. Edelman, The Story of Ben Gurion.
13 Yonathan Shapiro, The Formative Years of the Israeli Labour Party.
14 Shabtai Teveth, Ben Gurion. See also Edelman, ibid.
15 Michael Bar-Zohar, Ben Gurion.

Assuming this is socialism, then the answer has to be yes. Even Stalin was a fan.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Did_Stalin_su ... _of_Israel

http://www.canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/27868


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arms_shipm ... E2%80%9349

Though he did hate Jews...and he later changed his mind about Israel

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/200 ... /?page=all

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arms_shipm ... ooperation
Loz
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User avatar
Soviet cogitations: 11879
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 06 Dec 2009, 23:17
Philosophized
Post 02 Jun 2014, 23:24
What are you even trying to say here? It's well known that the USSR gave full support to Israel until 1949 or so.
[+-]
Soviet cogitations: 589
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 07 Dec 2013, 14:24
Ideology: Democratic Socialism
Unperson
Post 03 Jun 2014, 09:17
Loz wrote:
What are you even trying to say here? It's well known that the USSR gave full support to Israel until 1949 or so.


I'm asking was/is he a socialist hero or not, or at push was/is he a socialist?
Soviet cogitations: 12389
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 18 Apr 2010, 04:44
Ideology: None
Philosophized
Post 03 Jun 2014, 10:21
I've always thought of him as a terrorist, pure and simple. He's one of the prime culprits responsible for the present day nightmare in the region.
Miss Strangelove: "You feed giants laxatives so goblins can mine their poop before the gnomes get to it."
[+-]
Soviet cogitations: 589
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 07 Dec 2013, 14:24
Ideology: Democratic Socialism
Unperson
Post 03 Jun 2014, 14:17
Comrade Gulper wrote:
I've always thought of him as a terrorist, pure and simple. He's one of the prime culprits responsible for the present day nightmare in the region.


You mean Stalin aided a terrorist? I'm shocked as given his programmer of what he wanted to do in Israel, collective farming, strong welfare state etc I'd have thought he'd have been championed by the left.
Soviet cogitations: 2407
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 01 Nov 2003, 13:17
Ideology: Other
Forum Commissar
Post 04 Jun 2014, 14:00
No, he was not a hero. In my view he is responsible for ethnic cleansing.
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Soviet cogitations: 1078
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 21 Sep 2013, 03:08
Ideology: Trotskyism
Party Member
Post 08 Jun 2014, 00:37
Speaking as someone with partial Jewish ancestry, who sympathizes with classic Labor Zionism in a lot of ways: not at all.

Political Interest is definitely right that he was responsible for ethnic cleansing. Likewise, he was a social democrat who toned down the radicalism of much of the Labor Zionist movement. He actually represented an anti-Marxist backlash within it.

Wikipedia wrote:
Initially two labor parties were founded by immigrants to Palestine of the Second Aliyah (1904-1914): the pacifist and anti-militarist Hapo'el Hatza'ir (Young Worker) party and the Marxist Poale Zion party, with Poale Zion roots. The Poale Zion Party had a left wing and a right wing. In 1919 the right wing, including Ben-Gurion and anti-Marxist non-party people, founded Ahdut HaAvoda.
Soviet cogitations: 2407
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 01 Nov 2003, 13:17
Ideology: Other
Forum Commissar
Post 08 Jun 2014, 22:44
MissStrangelove wrote:
Political Interest is definitely right that he was responsible for ethnic cleansing. Likewise, he was a social democrat who toned down the radicalism of much of the Labor Zionist movement. He actually represented an anti-Marxist backlash within it.


It is strange that someone with a leftist orientation like Ben-Gurion could be so ethno-centric and racist towards the Arabs of Palestine. The Palestinian Arabs had been there since at least the 10th century, if not from before recorded history.

What Zionists can never answer is why they felt it was fine to displace people of their own country so they could get one of their own. What justifies it?
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Soviet cogitations: 716
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 04 Aug 2007, 23:25
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Komsomol
Post 11 Jun 2014, 11:34
He was a zionist. That says enough. A zionist cannot be a true Socialist, let alone a "Socialist hero".
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"Communism is more about love for mankind than about politics."
Me
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Soviet cogitations: 1078
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 21 Sep 2013, 03:08
Ideology: Trotskyism
Party Member
Post 13 Jun 2014, 15:22
Wakizashi the Bolshevik wrote:
He was a zionist. That says enough. A zionist cannot be a true Socialist, let alone a "Socialist hero".

By the time Ben-Gurion rose to Prime Minister, yeah. By that point it meant defense of displacement and ethnic cleansing of the region's Arabs. But Moses Hess, the father of classic Labor Zionism, was a close associate of Marx and Engels. He's the one who actually brought Engels to communism. I don't think you can consider him anything but "a true socialist." And his ideological heirs were more like the Marxist members of Poale Zion, who weren't really explicitly nationalist and instead wanted a worker's state. They've always seen "Jewish state" and "state of Jews" as two separate things, one involving self-determination as a persecuted cultural group, the other being more ethnically chauvinist and often religious.

Some even didn't particularly care about the issue of Palestine. Theodor Herzl, though he was a liberal Zionist rather than a Marxist one, aired the idea of a state in sparsely-populated rural Argentina, though contrary to some fascist claims there's really no evidence he had any coherent plan for that. There were some more minor proposals for a Jewish state carved out of Germany. The Jewish Autonomous Oblast might even fit as a homeland under some definitions. Like that of a Soviet member of Poale Zion's left faction, Ber Borochov, who wanted an area to specifically preserve the dying Yiddish/Ostjuden culture which was often denigrated by the Hebrew-language/Westjuden-centric political Zionist movement.

Interesting historical tidbit: ironically the Ostjuden themselves (including Ben-Gurion and every later Prime Minister) ended up playing a bigger role in Israel, despite not being the ones who bargained for a Jewish state and often seeing the issue as irrelevant since the more assimilated and wealthier Westjuden looked down on them too. The main reason is that was an easier escape path than Britain and the United States, where more Westjuden fled to. More also ended up having a history in guerilla groups in Eastern Europe, and were further radicalized because they (being more obviously Jewish/less assimilated) were more persecuted by the Nazis.
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Soviet cogitations: 417
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 15 Nov 2012, 01:18
Komsomol
Post 19 Jun 2014, 14:15
The Jewish oblast has like 1% jews in it these days. It should have been created in Odessa really, could even have turned out to be the alternative to Israel.
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Soviet cogitations: 1078
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 21 Sep 2013, 03:08
Ideology: Trotskyism
Party Member
Post 19 Jun 2014, 16:32
sans-culotte wrote:
The Jewish oblast has like 1% jews in it these days. It should have been created in Odessa really, could even have turned out to be the alternative to Israel.

That might've been a better idea than ridiculously way far-east, though an Odessa location could have led to problems when the Blitzkrieg started. It was occupied by Romania, after all. There was no way to predict that at the time though.

Either way, it shouldn't have been literally so far-east it borders China, which just makes me think this:
Few people would want to move all the way out there, especially since it's basically in the middle of nowhere. Though its Jewish population (however small) still are Yiddish-speaking and characteristically "Eastern" instead of adopting ugly constructed pseudo-Hebrew.
So in that sense, Borozov got his wish, it just isn't lasting as ethnic Russians become the overwhelming majority in the area and there are more Yiddish-speakers among Brooklyn Hasidics.
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