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Will Putin send his tanks?

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Will Putin send his tanks?

Yes
13
27%
No
29
60%
I don't know
6
13%
 
Total votes : 48
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 19 Mar 2005, 20:08
Embalmed
Post 12 Sep 2014, 00:31
Quote:
Actually works both ways, it is now apparent that the nazis on the other side are cannon fodder for the Dnepropetrovsk-Kiev oligarch group.


This has been apparent since the days of the Euromaidan when they were the most active group. However, for Kiev they are not only a resource, but also part of the power structure with all corresponding consequences, while in Russia they are firmly под шконкой.

Quote:
How exactly does a victory of the colorad infestation and the spread of Putin's puppets lead to any kind of revolution in Russia? Have you seen what the infestation of Crimea did to the ratings of our stability and of Putin? Neither of those scenarios have cause and effect linkage.


You wanna try again without using genocidal rhetoric? Seriously, this shit is on the level of "kill the cockroaches" in Rwanda 1994, and not in a way that helps you show your position as a "disinterested outsider standing in the rain, smiling." I will answer your question then.

Edit: In fact, your use of analogies, first with ISIS, now with sub-Saharan Africa makes it look like you are trying to make yourself feel like the issue is very far away from you and doesn't impact you, not like you are trying to actually analyze it.

And generally, don't use these terms. Although you might think you sound like a cool /b/tard or whatever, pigs is what the Nazis in their propaganda called Russians, Byelorussians and Ukrainians to see them as subhuman, and if you watch rebel videos, they never really use the term as an identifier for Ukrainians. They do call them "ukrops (dills)" which is pretty much on the level of American soldiers calling Germans krauts in WWII and not great either, but its point is to dehumanize enough to kill in battle, but not slaughter or enslave. Calling people colorado beetles and describing their ideas spreading as an infestation however puts you in league with the perpetrators worst genocides who needed to equate their enemies with parasites and pests to make their mass murder appear acceptable.

That's actually a major difference between Novorossia and Ukraine - the Kiev forces fight as Nazi Germany did, killing people and destroying cities, towns and villages out of hate because they don't see the fighters or civilians as people, but as non-human pests. Forces in Novorossia on the other hand, if you watch videos of ordinary rebels, some of them have a weird kind of "love" for their enemies, seeing them not as just also human, but also Russian. The closest analogy I can think of would be that one part of "Only Old Men Are Going to Battle" where Maestro said that he would with great love write on a wall in Berlin "with the ruins of Reichstag - satisfied." Of course people who have lost friends and family members may have a different kind of attitude, but it still holds.

And as we've seen, they just call those among them who are ethnic Ukrainians just Ukrainian, and the "strongest" term various commanders have used for the enemy is "Ukr" which is a purely political designation of so-called "conscious Ukrainians" and refers to various fraud historians who wrote stories in official government textbooks and newspapers about a race of "ancient Ukrs" that the Ukrainians descend from who did such things as dig out the Black Sea and build the Egyptian pyramids. Much like Nazi tales about Aryans, would be funny if it didn't lead to the deaths and beatings of so many people who did not believe in this...

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What oligarch did Bosco Ntaganda fight for?


So you can't answer my question. okay.

Quote:
In other words, I can't say that dirty reactionary scum is dirty reactionary scum
Also, every stage of capitalism had a power center (Netherlands -> Britain -> US), that never meant the absence of other huge and not so huge centers within a hierarchy and with competing interests.


Not without looking like the typical commenter on a euromaidan public whose brain was eaten by russophobia and shitty TV you can't, no.


The current status of the US as a power center is pretty universal, and Russia today only exists as an "alternative" center due to its Soviet legacy, its ability to stay out of debt and hydrocarbon exports. I can make somewhat of a parallel with Argentina, as both countries were anal slaves of the IMF in the 90s, but for whom getting out of it worked because the debt was a ponzi scheme, the end of which also meant the end of the dominance of the elites who profited off the scheme (whereas in various smaller countries it just means debt slavery for generations). However, like it or not, if the siloviki lost power and the oligarch clans dominated again, it would cease to be that "alternative." In this sense, the current confrontation between Russia and the US only makes sense from the perspective of systems - the global financial system against what to it is a historical misunderstanding, a group of people who despite being a national bourgeoisie of sorts, do not share the values of neoliberalism, which means bowing down to a single center, but rather continue the ideology of the Kosygin reforms and ironically, perestroika when the current structures such as Gazprom were formalized. That ideology, despite being profit-driven puts it outside the hierarchy, so there is a sort of dualism between those elites who are pro-western due to their economic interests and those who are not due to theirs. Ukraine doesn't have that because it is controlled by oligarchs pretty much 100%, but it has a surrogate, antimaidan, and I will explain how and its relation to communist revolution once you rephrase your above questions.
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"Bleh, i don't even know what i'm arguing for. What a stupid rant. Disregard what i wrote." - Loz
"Every time is gyros time" - Stalinista
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 07 Oct 2004, 22:04
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Resident Soviet
Post 12 Sep 2014, 19:49
Brilliant analysis there Kirov. Thanks a lot!
"The thing about capitalism is that it sounds awful on paper and is horrendous in practice. Communism sounds wonderful on paper and when it was put into practice it was done pretty well for what they had to work with." -MiG
Loz
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 06 Dec 2009, 23:17
Philosophized
Post 21 Sep 2014, 22:20
So it turns out Donbass will become just another Transnistria.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 19 Mar 2005, 20:08
Embalmed
Post 22 Sep 2014, 13:46
Do you have a time machine, or just some exclusive insider info to say things with such certainty?
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"Bleh, i don't even know what i'm arguing for. What a stupid rant. Disregard what i wrote." - Loz
"Every time is gyros time" - Stalinista
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 06 Dec 2009, 23:17
Philosophized
Post 22 Sep 2014, 15:56
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 19 Mar 2005, 20:08
Embalmed
Post 22 Sep 2014, 22:12
That's not what he says in that article.
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"Bleh, i don't even know what i'm arguing for. What a stupid rant. Disregard what i wrote." - Loz
"Every time is gyros time" - Stalinista
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 06 Dec 2009, 23:17
Philosophized
Post 23 Sep 2014, 00:24
What's it say then?
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 19 Mar 2005, 20:08
Embalmed
Post 23 Sep 2014, 01:11
That it's what the Russian side wants in the Minsk negotiations, but not what Novorossia, Ukraine, EU and US want. Unless you think that the faction of Russian officials and business interests that wants a Transnistria-like status for Novorossia in its current form is stronger than the opposing factions in the Russian state, as well Novorossia, Ukraine, EU and the US put together, its future status is not something set in stone.
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"Bleh, i don't even know what i'm arguing for. What a stupid rant. Disregard what i wrote." - Loz
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 15 Nov 2012, 01:18
Komsomol
Post 23 Sep 2014, 10:58
Quote:
This has been apparent since the days of the Euromaidan when they were the most active group. However, for Kiev they are not only a resource, but also part of the power structure with all corresponding consequences, while in Russia they are firmly под шконкой.

Not much evidence for that, but okay, as long as monarcho-white pederasts and orthodox jihadists keep nazis under the shkonka (as their passive parters, of course) and that works for you.

Quote:
Edit: In fact, your use of analogies, first with ISIS, now with sub-Saharan Africa makes it look like you are trying to make yourself feel like the issue is very far away from you and doesn't impact you, not like you are trying to actually analyze it.

Mainly because it is far from me and has no impact on me apart from the tent next to my metro station where they beg people for change to send humanitarian aid, which is all good (as long as it isn't used to help spread the colorad infestation). And even less on you in New York or where ever you are.

Also sorry for your butthurt that prompted you to write that passage, but what you just used is the old zionist trick of equating anti-zionists with anti-semites; the colorad infestation are indeed pests and scum of the earth, but in no way does anti-colorad mean anti-east ukrainian, not only because much of the infestation is from Russia, but also because east Ukrainians are hostages to bandits, who use them as human shields and then blare about ukro bombardments.

Plus, you obviously can't answer my question, because you know for sure that I'm not going to rephrase it.

Quote:
So you can't answer my question. okay.

Because I know (or care) about him as much as I do about Ntaganda; what matters is that novorashka was bankrolled at first by Akhmetov in the initial stages, as admitted by Gubarev himself (Akhmetov was rewarded and allowed to keep his assets), that the local bureaucrats didn't sabotage novorashka by stopping work, but carried on their functions; that the Donetsk clan is supporting and funding Novorashka; that the "opolchenie" was founded and is staffed with berkut and cops.

Quote:
Not without looking like the typical commenter on a euromaidan public whose brain was eaten by russophobia and shitty TV you can't, no

Says he before resorting to the shittiest liberastic dogmas about siloviki. The real difference between Ukraine and Russia is that the latter's oligarchy united and hired siloviki to keep everyone in line with the consensus, while in Ukraine there are still warring clans, making it a 3rd world country. While Russia is a secondary imperial center as much as France or Germany during Britain's dominance in the 19th century. And back then you would hear the same охуительные stories from 2nd international "leftists" about the need to unite with their own bourgeoisie to defeat the terrible entente imperialists.
Last edited by sans-culotte on 23 Sep 2014, 11:35, edited 1 time in total.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 15 Nov 2012, 01:18
Komsomol
Post 23 Sep 2014, 11:06
Fun fact: "Novorossia" was a tsarist colonial project on the left-bank Dnepr.

Aaand some more antifascism/national liberation downbass-style

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EDIT more fun facts:

DNR constitution, articles 9.2, 9.3

2. В Донецкой Народной Республике первенствующая и господствующей верой является Православная вера (Вера Христианская Православная Кафолическая Восточного Исповедания), исповедуемая Русской Православной Церковью (Московский Патриархат).

The main and dominant religion of the DNR is the Orthodox Faith (Russian orthodox church, Moscow patriarchate)

3. Исторический опыт и роль Православия и Русской Православной Церкви (Московский Патриархат) признаются и уважаются, в том числе, как системообразующие столпы Русского Мира.

Historical experience and role of orthodoxy and the ROC (MP) are recognised and respected as pillars of the Russian world.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 19 Mar 2005, 20:08
Embalmed
Post 23 Sep 2014, 20:46
sans-culotte wrote:
Not much evidence for that, but okay, as long as monarcho-white pederasts and orthodox jihadists keep nazis under the shkonka (as their passive parters, of course) and that works for you.


I was talking about how it is in Russia, or are there currently neo-nazis running wild with no reaction at all from the FSB and cops as it was in the 90s?


Quote:
Edit: In fact, your use of analogies, first with ISIS, now with sub-Saharan Africa makes it look like you are trying to make yourself feel like the issue is very far away from you and doesn't impact you, not like you are trying to actually analyze it.

Quote:
Mainly because it is far from me and has no impact on me apart from the tent next to my metro station where they beg people for change to send humanitarian aid, which is all good (as long as it isn't used to help spread the colorad infestation). And even less on you in New York or where ever you are.

Also sorry for your butthurt that prompted you to write that passage, but what you just used is the old zionist trick of equating anti-zionists with anti-semites; the colorad infestation are indeed pests and scum of the earth, but in no way does anti-colorad mean anti-east ukrainian, not only because much of the infestation is from Russia, but also because east Ukrainians are hostages to bandits, who use them as human shields and then blare about ukro bombardments.


I think you are more pro-Kiev than I am pro-Assad! At least when the SAA bombs homes and hospitals and such, there is obvious evidence that they are used as military positions by the rebels, so while it's unfortunate that they have to bomb homes that are connected with tunnels and have sniper nests, it's something that has to be done because they are part of the combat zone. In Donetsk, the Ukrainians maybe hit rebel positions once a month or so, and for the rest of the time just bombard apartment buildings, factories and civilian infrastructure that are not used by the rebels. The only reason for this is to destroy the industrial base and make the cities unlivable, and send a message to the rest of the southeast that this is what rebellion leads to, as it seemed to have been pretty effective in Russia with regards to destroying the infrastructure of Chechnya in the 90s.

Also, there is no such thing as "east-ukrainian," there are Russians and Ukrainians who live in historical Novorossia. The Ukrainians you call pigs while the Russians you call pests in a self(if you are Russian)-hatred that resembles that of Latynina and the late Novodvorskaya.

Quote:
Plus, you obviously can't answer my question, because you know for sure that I'm not going to rephrase it.


Are you aware of how stupid you look here? I asked you to not use genocidal rhetoric and you give me this autism.

Quote:
Because I know (or care) about him as much as I do about Ntaganda; what matters is that novorashka was bankrolled at first by Akhmetov in the initial stages, as admitted by Gubarev himself (Akhmetov was rewarded and allowed to keep his assets), that the local bureaucrats didn't sabotage novorashka by stopping work, but carried on their functions; that the Donetsk clan is supporting and funding Novorashka; that the "opolchenie" was founded and is staffed with berkut and cops.


And Lenin just arrived in Petrograd all by himself and the Red Army had no people with prior military experience, okay.

Quote:
Says he before resorting to the shittiest liberastic dogmas about siloviki. The real difference between Ukraine and Russia is that the latter's oligarchy united and hired siloviki to keep everyone in line with the consensus, while in Ukraine there are still warring clans, making it a 3rd world country. While Russia is a secondary imperial center as much as France or Germany during Britain's dominance in the 19th century. And back then you would hear the same охуительные stories from 2nd international "leftists" about the need to unite with their own bourgeoisie to defeat the terrible entente imperialists.


What you're really saying here is that you have a 19th century view of the world, much like Trotskyists who are convinced that they are in 1917 Petrograd and in especially extreme cases begin to cosplay it. But in your case, you are an underground intellectual in pre-1905 Russia (though with memes and /b/ instead of works of Dostoyevsky or Kropotkin) who simultaneously sees Russia as dominated by "Putinism" where Putin is basically the tsar and by a national bourgeoisie, whose interests have no contradiction to Putin's, and with whom power is not shared but simultaneously expressed in a sort of singularity. In this world, the Soviet Union never existed, neither Khodorkovsky nor Prokhorov ever had political ambitions, and nothing changed in the country politically or economically since Yeltsin's reelection in 1996, when the oligarchs united to support him against Zyuganov. Also in this world, people whose views you oppose have no sense of humor above what they saw Petrosyan say on TV. As a result, you grace us with amazing fuc­king stories about rebels using human shields and have jokes about Orthodox Jihad (I don't know what you are more ignorant of, Orthodox Christianity or Islamism/Jihadism) and the Islamic State of Donbass and Lugant fly way over your head.

Quote:
Fun fact: "Novorossia" was a tsarist colonial project on the left-bank Dnepr.


I think you will struggle to find a modern country that was not the product of a monarchy or a monarchy's colonial project. Only thing that comes to mind is ex-Soviet Central Asia that was reorganized along ethnic lines rather than the borders of Khiva and Bukhara. Otherwise, all of the borders of Europe, the Americas, Africa, Middle East, and Asia are either based on monarchies or borders of imperial colonies.

Quote:
EDIT more fun facts:

DNR constitution, articles 9.2, 9.3

2. В Донецкой Народной Республике первенствующая и господствующей верой является Православная вера (Вера Христианская Православная Кафолическая Восточного Исповедания), исповедуемая Русской Православной Церковью (Московский Патриархат).

The main and dominant religion of the DNR is the Orthodox Faith (Russian orthodox church, Moscow patriarchate)

3. Исторический опыт и роль Православия и Русской Православной Церкви (Московский Патриархат) признаются и уважаются, в том числе, как системообразующие столпы Русского Мира.

Historical experience and role of orthodoxy and the ROC (MP) are recognised and respected as pillars of the Russian world.


This is a somewhat legitimate point with regards to what you said about anti-Zionism. The whole idea of the "Russian World" is in its execution basically a calque of the Zionist idea of the "Jewish World" where individuals outside of Israel can be mobilized to support the interests of the Israeli state. This sort of ideology turned out to be unviable for Russia not only because it is a multi-ethnic state in which minorities have a right to their own national republics, unlike Israel where the Palestinians are unrecognized and in the case of the West Bank under literal military occupation, but also because of the Russian government's inability to commit to the project. As a result, the idea ended up being written into only the DNR constitution (and not LNR or SNR/Novorossia) and since then more or less abandoned. However, the project still more or less exists, though I don't know who exactly is behind it and how much of it is an actual ideological thing and not just media soundbites, so such statements about Russian cultural-religious-political unity in the style of Zionism may still pop up. I remember at its peak though it got to the point where Solovyev on Voskresniy Vecher even had Zionist right-wingers from Israel participate in the discussion.
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"Bleh, i don't even know what i'm arguing for. What a stupid rant. Disregard what i wrote." - Loz
"Every time is gyros time" - Stalinista
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 12 Jun 2006, 02:14
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Politburo
Post 23 Sep 2014, 22:19
sans-culotte wrote:
EDIT more fun facts:

DNR constitution, articles 9.2, 9.3

2. В Донецкой Народной Республике первенствующая и господствующей верой является Православная вера (Вера Христианская Православная Кафолическая Восточного Исповедания), исповедуемая Русской Православной Церковью (Московский Патриархат).

The main and dominant religion of the DNR is the Orthodox Faith (Russian orthodox church, Moscow patriarchate)

3. Исторический опыт и роль Православия и Русской Православной Церкви (Московский Патриархат) признаются и уважаются, в том числе, как системообразующие столпы Русского Мира.

Historical experience and role of orthodoxy and the ROC (MP) are recognised and respected as pillars of the Russian world.

I see no problem with this. It's a statement of facts. Argentina's constitution has a similar clause about catholicism, yet there are many more religions here. Although, we do pay salaries to the bishops. I guess they're smarter in Donetsk.
It doesn't forbid other religions nor atheism. So it's ok by me.


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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 06 Dec 2009, 23:17
Philosophized
Post 23 Sep 2014, 23:22
Quote:
I see no problem with this. It's a statement of facts.

Laughable. If you twist common sense wide enough you could say that for Poland or something, not Ukraine or Russia where most people aren't even actual practicing Christians.
And that's all ignoring the actual context of this modern "Orthodox revival" ultra-reactionary bullshit.
Even RF doesn't have such garbage in its constitution.

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Although, we do pay salaries to the bishops.

What a disgrace. In the EU only Greece does something like that.

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It doesn't forbid other religions nor atheism. So it's ok by me.

It's ok for you because you're a known reactionary.
That's like saying that Apartheid "doesn't forbid" black people.
Everywhere in the world anyone even remotely progressive wants the separation of church from the state, but for you this shit is OK.
No surprise there though.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 08 Nov 2007, 06:31
Embalmed
Post 24 Sep 2014, 00:08
Comparing it to apartheid is a bit much. Even the USSR differentiated between 'domestic' religion (like Orthodoxy) and foreign, non-traditional ones like Jehovah's Witness.

Just more evidence slavs aren't good little liberals. Is that such a bad thing?
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Aug 2010, 14:21
Party Bureaucrat
Post 24 Sep 2014, 08:38
Quote:
What a disgrace. In the EU only Greece does something like that.

And France, in Alsace. It's not normal of course that a country recognizes a religion as its "dominant" or official religion, this is quite reactionary. However it's not the principal problem in this situation, and it's not enough to blame de DPR as a whole.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 29 Sep 2011, 13:51
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Post 24 Sep 2014, 14:28
I never was a religious person but I also never had a problem with religion so long as it was not imposed or enforced upon others. In fact I can really appreciate all religions for their meditative, artistic, architectural and philosophical qualities. I mean if it is something that brings happiness to the masses and is not misinterpreted negatively or violently then I see no problem.

At this point in my life I agree with a big portion of the scientific community in that the concept of a God has its origins in our genes. It has been argued and even tested in labs that God is a mechanism in our brains that helps cope with the fear of death and despair. It was certainly not an accident that all peoples and civilisations completely independent of each other were able to conjure up their own complete spiritual worlds.

Even the communist party of the soviet union realised the futility of completely eradicating religion from societies' consciousness. We as communists may not like it, but it's something we'll have to deal with regardless.

So even though I agree that religion and state should be separate and that the contrary is reactionary, I certainly don't see it as a major threat in the Donbass or indeed in much of the Christian world, although there are exceptions I can think of some even in the first world like some very rich fanatic American christians who are the most hardcore believers in zionism. Then there's of course fanatic Islam and so on.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 06 Dec 2009, 23:17
Philosophized
Post 29 Sep 2014, 21:22
So it turns out some Jews including veterans from the Israeli military decided to form their own battalion "Matilan" to fight alongside Kiev and their fascist gangs.
Not gonna link to the source because i don't want them to come back here but it's easily googled.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 16 Dec 2011, 00:54
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Komsomol
Post 30 Sep 2014, 08:26
Ugh! Israelis really keep finding ways to discover whole new lows to sink too.

Palestinian Atrocities and Forced Sterilisation of African Immigrants are bad enough but siding with groups that would happily round them up in a Concentration Camp if given the chance just really beggars belief.
"A shiny bauble from Capitalism is worthless when the cost is Children & the Elderly going hungry, The Infirm & Sick dying because of Greed & Education reduced to a token few to placate the masses with Illusions of freedom."
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 29 Sep 2011, 13:51
Party Member
Post 01 Oct 2014, 17:04
The Jewish lobbies have been trying to cut a piece of the Ukrainian pie for many years now. They seem to have a lot to profit in the Ukraine. Boris Berezovsky was the main financial backer of the previous Orange Revolution. He later said in an interview that it was the best investment he ever made. Sure, look at how that turned out for him. A lot of prominent Jews like Victoria Nuland were proponents of the Maidan coup d'état, as well as other Ukrainians with Jewish backgrounds like Yulia Tymoshenko and Arseniy Yatsenyuk. It's business, nothing personal here. They don't mind working with fascists so long as it brings in a profit.

Not all Jews supported the Maidan though, my cousins in Kiev who are all Jews were staunchly against the Maidan.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 07 Oct 2004, 22:04
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Resident Soviet
Post 01 Oct 2014, 18:26
The Jewish question in the Ukraine situation gives me a huge headache. A couple people I know have been harassing me lately with the idea that the Jews are sticking it to Russia in Ukraine because the latter refused to give them Crimea, which they had apparently had ambitions on as the alternative to Israel. These guys also bring up the Jewish last names of some of the local oligarch players, like Kolomoysky, and of course the politicians Yeqon mentioned, arguing that it is their Jewishness which makes them so heartless toward the Slavs they're murdering.

Frankly I don't want these people to be on our side in this conflict; telling them that any such conspiracy is still the work of a tiny sect is pointless. It's the same as the situation in Russia in the 90s, where the fact that most oligarchs were Jewish made it a 'grand Jewish conspiracy'. Granted many Jews could leave the hard times that befell the country, but most of those who didn't suffered along with everyone else. I know for a fact that even in immigration many suffered remembering the loss of the Soviet Union.

In Russia presently everything is being done by the state to show that Russian Jews and much of the world Jewish community is against Maidan and the racism being displayed in Ukraine. This is very important in present circumstances in a country where the Jewish cultural influence has been so strong historically.
"The thing about capitalism is that it sounds awful on paper and is horrendous in practice. Communism sounds wonderful on paper and when it was put into practice it was done pretty well for what they had to work with." -MiG
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