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Will Putin send his tanks?

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Will Putin send his tanks?

Yes
13
27%
No
29
60%
I don't know
6
13%
 
Total votes : 48
User avatar
Soviet cogitations: 2298
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Aug 2010, 14:21
Party Bureaucrat
Post 25 Feb 2014, 13:21
I don't see the problem with the lingua franca. The lingua franca has never been enforced by any authority. Today English is also a lingua franca and that's why we are speaking in English there on Soviet-Empire. I have no problem with that, actually I think that's a good thing.
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"Fishing is part of agriculture" Gred
"Loz, you are like me" Yami
"I am one of the better read Marxists on this site" Gred
[+-]
Soviet cogitations: 589
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 07 Dec 2013, 14:24
Ideology: Democratic Socialism
Unperson
Post 25 Feb 2014, 13:25
Right, well that is different to saying there was no lingua franca!
So the line has gone from, imposing a language on others is bad and there was not a lingua franca in the old USSR but now, well there was one and that is a good thing.
User avatar
Soviet cogitations: 2298
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Aug 2010, 14:21
Party Bureaucrat
Post 25 Feb 2014, 13:32
But as I said the lingua franca wasn't imposed on others. It's a vehicular language, thus a progressive language. Speaking the lingua franca doesn't imply that you are forced to abandon your mother tongue. In the USSR many measures were taken to protect and sometimes develop national languages (in contradiction with Leninism according to which a Marxist shouldn't develop national culture). That was an important change compared to what the Russian Empire did.
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"Fishing is part of agriculture" Gred
"Loz, you are like me" Yami
"I am one of the better read Marxists on this site" Gred
[+-]
Soviet cogitations: 589
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 07 Dec 2013, 14:24
Ideology: Democratic Socialism
Unperson
Post 25 Feb 2014, 13:57
"1938 on: universalize the knowledge of *********. With this came forced cyrillicization of former roman or Arabic scripts. Covertly this is russification but overtly it was used to glorify and unify, and prepare for war with Germany.

Other thrusts: divide and conquer the Turkic peoples of Central Asia by declaring their (mutually intelligible) languages to be separate. Kazakh, Uzbek, Uighur, Kirgiz (but not Tajik, which is Persian) were treated as separate, and pushed to developing separate ways lexically."

I've ******** the name of the language here, but what do you think of this policy?
Loz
[+-]
User avatar
Soviet cogitations: 11879
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 06 Dec 2009, 23:17
Philosophized
Post 25 Feb 2014, 14:14
Quote:
In the USSR many measures were taken to protect and sometimes develop national languages (in contradiction with Leninism according to which a Marxist shouldn't develop national culture).

?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korenizatsiya
User avatar
Soviet cogitations: 2298
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Aug 2010, 14:21
Party Bureaucrat
Post 25 Feb 2014, 14:28
Yes, this was criticized by Lenin in many of his works on the national question such as this one:

"As a matter of fact, “cultural-national autonomy”, i.e., the absolutely pure and consistent segregating of education according to nationality, was invented not by the capitalists (for the time being they resort to cruder methods to divide the workers) but by the opportunist, philistine intelligentsia of Austria. There is not a trace of this brilliantly philistine and brilliantly nationalist idea in any of the democratic West-European countries with mixed populations. This idea of the despairing petty bourgeois could arise only in Eastern Europe, in backward, feudal, clerical, bureaucratic Austria, where all public and political life is hampered by wretched, petty squabbling (worse still: cursing and brawling) over the question of languages. Since cat and dog can’t agree, let us at least segregate all the nations once and for all absolutely clearly and consistently in “national curias” for educational purposes!—such is the psychology that engendered this foolish idea of “cultural-national autonomy”. The proletariat, which is conscious of and cherishes its internationalism, will never accept this nonsense of refined nationalism."

https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1913/nov/28.htm

In other texts if I remember correctly Lenin says that even though we must the recognize the right of nations to self-determination, we mustn't take part in the promotion of national particularity, which is of course surprising considering all that was done by the communists in the USSR, but also other countries such as Vietnam. Communists have always tried to conciliate this leninist doctrine with what they did (and the recognition of national sovereignty and self-determination), but that's obviously a difficult thing to do.
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"Fishing is part of agriculture" Gred
"Loz, you are like me" Yami
"I am one of the better read Marxists on this site" Gred
[+-]
Soviet cogitations: 589
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 07 Dec 2013, 14:24
Ideology: Democratic Socialism
Unperson
Post 25 Feb 2014, 15:36
USSR imperialism is not imperialism and is benign.
Western Imperialism is imperialism and is bad.
Nationalism is good for when it is turned against the West but bad when turned against Russia or China.
Interfering in the internal affairs of others countries is very bad, except when Russia does it, then it is good, even when Russia is run by Putin, who tried to ‘bribe’ the Ukrainian people with a $15bn loan. But this a good thing, though it would have been bad if the EU had offered something similar.
The Ukrainian people deciding for themselves is good, but bad if they cut ties with Russia.
Putin not sending the tanks in is a good thing, even though he should and if he did that would be a good thing too.
User avatar
Soviet cogitations: 2298
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Aug 2010, 14:21
Party Bureaucrat
Post 25 Feb 2014, 18:22
Ukraine is part of the Russian Empire since 1647, therefore Putin can take it back.
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"Fishing is part of agriculture" Gred
"Loz, you are like me" Yami
"I am one of the better read Marxists on this site" Gred
Soviet cogitations: 12389
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 18 Apr 2010, 04:44
Ideology: None
Philosophized
Post 25 Feb 2014, 22:32
OP-Bagration wrote:
Ukraine is part of the Russian Empire since 1647, therefore Putin can take it back.

Eastern Ukraine contains most of the primordial Kievan Rus state, and therefore is Russia. It's no wonder that Putin wants it back, no matter what he alleges to the contrary in public. It was never meant to be separate from the rest of Russia. The West is essentially Polish, and would only be desired by Putin (or a successor) as a buffer against the West. But, most likely, we'll see a partition of Ukraine between Russia and Poland in our life times.
Miss Strangelove: "You feed giants laxatives so goblins can mine their poop before the gnomes get to it."
Loz
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User avatar
Soviet cogitations: 11879
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 06 Dec 2009, 23:17
Philosophized
Post 25 Feb 2014, 23:24
Kievan Rus' isn't Russia just like the Holy Roman Empire isn't Germany. True, Ukraine probably wouldn't be able to function as a normal state without Russia but that's the same for most other ex-USSR countries. Not that anything in Ukraine actually worked since 1991.
User avatar
Soviet cogitations: 2298
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Aug 2010, 14:21
Party Bureaucrat
Post 25 Feb 2014, 23:54
Sevastopol is Russia for sure however. I don't know why the USSR decided that it would be given to Ukraine, but that's one more proof that the Soviet Union was far from being oppressive regarding nationalities.
Last edited by OP-Bagration on 26 Feb 2014, 20:21, edited 1 time in total.
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"Fishing is part of agriculture" Gred
"Loz, you are like me" Yami
"I am one of the better read Marxists on this site" Gred
Soviet cogitations: 304
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 05 Feb 2014, 00:36
Komsomol
Post 25 Feb 2014, 23:55
Loz wrote:
Kievan Rus' isn't Russia just like the Holy Roman Empire isn't Germany. True, Ukraine probably wouldn't be able to function as a normal state without Russia but that's the same for most other ex-USSR countries. Not that anything in Ukraine actually worked since 1991.


Push that back about a year and you'll be better off. 1991 was a shit, shit year when all this crap started going down in the first place.
User avatar
Soviet cogitations: 6211
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 04 Aug 2004, 20:49
Ideology: Democratic Socialism
Embalmed
Post 26 Feb 2014, 10:57
It's a slightly tangential point to make which does have some relevance on what has been written since my last post, but I remember reading in the appendix of the 2nd Volume of E.H. Carr's History of the Bolshevik Revolution that the Central Asian Republics were allowed to function in their native language, with an element of Koranic (seeing as though scholars in that part of the world may not necessarily have gotten to know real, living Arabic aside from the Hajj had they taken it, but only the form and meter used in the Koran) thrown in alongside Russian.

It was perfectly tolerated for this to be the case, the Soviet Union was even tolerant enough to allow certain forms of Sharia Law to be carried out by local elders, provided they were purely for civil and minor criminal matters in which those wronged are few and to a lesser degree. Anyone who felt wronged by the outcome for whatever reason had the right to appeal to either their Republic's Soviet Court which was the main legal body, or even constitutionally to the All Union Supreme Court (though I doubt a minor case ever got that far, unless it was something endemic and needed a sea-change).

Sure sounds like an intolerant state to me!

I guess some of you have this book lying around (I gave mine away as a present to a dear friend) and urge you to look into the section in question.
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"Phil Spector is haunting Europe" -Dr. Karl H. Marx
[+-]
Soviet cogitations: 589
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 07 Dec 2013, 14:24
Ideology: Democratic Socialism
Unperson
Post 26 Feb 2014, 12:43
The USSR was one of the most intolerant states that ever existed. I’m glad it’s gone and hopefully it will never come back. Let’s not get all nostalgic over it.
Soviet cogitations: 12389
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 18 Apr 2010, 04:44
Ideology: None
Philosophized
Post 26 Feb 2014, 13:18
Yami wrote:
The USSR was one of the most intolerant states that ever existed. I’m glad it’s gone and hopefully it will never come back. Let’s not get all nostalgic over it.

Yami, are you actually old enough to remember the USSR when it existed? I'll cop to the fact that I finally visited the old country in the era of Yeltsin, but I'll tell you this: Everyone in Murmansk who wasn't driving a Mercedes or a Porsche and living in a million dollar dacha was very nostalgic for the USSR.
Miss Strangelove: "You feed giants laxatives so goblins can mine their poop before the gnomes get to it."
[+-]
Soviet cogitations: 589
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 07 Dec 2013, 14:24
Ideology: Democratic Socialism
Unperson
Post 26 Feb 2014, 13:23
One thing Siegfried Sassoon found it hard to understand was nostalgia for the trenches in WWI. He and others stuck in the trenches hated it when they were there, but when they were away they used to reminisce about the happy times they had there, forgetting how awful it was. It was as if they wanted to be back there. So beware of nostalgia.
If it was so wonderful then lets seem them re-create it then, vote it back into existence. But so far they haven’t.
Soviet cogitations: 304
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 05 Feb 2014, 00:36
Komsomol
Post 26 Feb 2014, 14:07
Yami wrote:
One thing Siegfried Sassoon found it hard to understand was nostalgia for the trenches in WWI. He and others stuck in the trenches hated it when they were there, but when they were away they used to reminisce about the happy times they had there, forgetting how awful it was. It was as if they wanted to be back there. So beware of nostalgia.
If it was so wonderful then lets seem them re-create it then, vote it back into existence. But so far they haven’t.


You know, it's funny you mention that, because there was this little thing in 1993 when people did try and then Yeltsin crushed them with his tanks. So obviously there are consequences for the Russian people to try and express themselves democratically.

But you would have no conception of that what with vague "people power" lip-service and a loyalty to Western Ukrainian fascists.
[+-]
Soviet cogitations: 589
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 07 Dec 2013, 14:24
Ideology: Democratic Socialism
Unperson
Post 26 Feb 2014, 14:41
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Co ... tion,_1917

Yeah, it's terrible when that happens and people that you think?


I’ve included a space for any reply to say why it was correct for Lenin to do this in 197 but wrong for Yeltsin to do this in 1993.

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I'm getting tired of your shit. Stop trolling and derailing the discussion. You've earned a 2 week yellow card. - Che B.
Soviet cogitations: 304
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 05 Feb 2014, 00:36
Komsomol
Post 26 Feb 2014, 15:41
Yami wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Constituent_Assembly_election,_1917

Yeah, it's terrible when that happens and people that you think?


I’ve included a space for any reply to say why it was correct for Lenin to do this in 197 but wrong for Yeltsin to do this in 1993.

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Hey look, applying the exact same logic of two totally different events happening under different contexts and times for no reason!

Bravo Yami, I do hope you're getting kicks out of this because your active attempts to act silly are not actually doing anything to anybody. Simply making them think "Wow, that guy really has nothing better to do than troll and whine."

And no, you can't say "joke's on you, I was only pretending"
[+-]
User avatar
Soviet cogitations: 9398
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 19 Mar 2005, 20:08
Embalmed
Post 26 Feb 2014, 23:37
So, not tanks but Russian BTRs have been moving around the Crimean peninsula, though in a legal manner, accompanied by Ukrainian traffic police, and under the pretense of protecting Russian citizens vacationing in Crimea (I'm not sure who vacations in Crimea in February but I don't think anyone could have expected anything other than obvious bullshit).

So I'm willing to concede to Op-B that he is about 20% correct because there are BTRs and also practice maneuvers on the Ukrainian border. 20% because I think that's how strong a BTR is compared to a tank but I don't really don't know anything about big land-based death machines.
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