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Will Putin send his tanks?

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Will Putin send his tanks?

Yes
13
27%
No
29
60%
I don't know
6
13%
 
Total votes : 48
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Soviet cogitations: 589
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 07 Dec 2013, 14:24
Ideology: Democratic Socialism
Unperson
Post 03 Mar 2014, 17:13
Thanks Loz! As I have tried to say, behind fascism stands nationalism, behind nationalism stands capitalism. So I can’t support nationalism and I certainly don’t support fascism. Neither side in this dispute is for the working class! A plague on both their houses.
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Soviet cogitations: 1432
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 29 Sep 2011, 13:51
Ideology: Democratic Socialism
Party Member
Post 03 Mar 2014, 17:41
Yami wrote:
That’s ok, I’m sure the Stalinists will make up for their disappointment in me by signing a non-aggression pact with them and keeping this from the people!


That topic's been moved somewhere else. Stop derailing the subject.

Yami's whole political outlook can be summed up like this:

Karl Marx was never really communist. Neither was Engels. They were both corrupt drunks and they never fought for the working class.

Communist parties are not really communist. They always serve to the benefit of the capitalist class.

I Yami am the only person in the world who understands true socialism.

As a true socialist one must never take sides, even if that means not going up against Islamic Jihadists and Fascist Nazis because all warring sides in essence never serve the working class regardless of the current political and economical state of affairs.

No one has ever served the working class and that's why one must always stay neutral.

Loz wrote:
Putin is not much better than the fascists.


No difference between Putin and Hitler? Are you really serious? OK fine I believe you. HAIL PUTIN I guess would be most appropriate.
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The great art of life is sensation, to feel that you exist, even in pain.
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Soviet cogitations: 2298
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Aug 2010, 14:21
Party Bureaucrat
Post 03 Mar 2014, 17:53
Always the same litany, as if it was possible to excuse or justify Yami's abhorrent statements. Yami is wrong from A to Z and so are you. It's shameful to say that Putin who isn't a fascist, and the KPRF that also support the so-called invasion, are "no much better than the fascists". You are exactly like those trotskyists who in the middle of the war, when the peoples of Europe were suffering under nazi yoke, were still saying that there was no much difference between Roosevelt and Hitler. You are wrong ideologically, and you are wrong politically, because your comparison is wrong. Russia isn't making a war to obtain more territory but to protect itself against a NATO offensive. If you are not able to understand the big difference between an imperialism on one side that have made wars all over the world, in Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Syria and many other countries, threatening democratically elected governments like in Venezuela and Ukraine, supporting actual nazis, islamists, terrorists and autocrats; and Russian quite limited imperialism on the other side, something is wrong with you.

60% of Ukraine workers already work for Russian capitalists. And then what? Would you prefer that they work for the West instead, but with lower wages, no political rights, no communist party because it was banned, no right to speak and learn their mothertongue because it was banned, no democracy because you are not allowed to vote for a government unless it is a pro-fascist and pro-EU government? No right to self-determination because bad Russians have invaded? Where is the right to self-determination? Has it disappeared? Where have your principles gone? Comparison with the Sudetenland? Why not a comparison with Saarland? Curious, everything is curious.

The first fait accompli in this crisis is the overthrow of Ukraine's democratically elected government and the violation of the agreement with Russia. You are siding with the actual warmongers when you say that Russia is accountable for this crisis as much as Hitler's appetite was accountable for the Sudeten crisis.

I side with the Ukrainians, Russian inhabitants of Ukraine, and inhabitants of Crimea, who remember the Great Patriotic War, and welcome once again a Russian army, an army that was their ally inside the glorious USSR, because actual neo-nazis have taken power in Kiev. Who quoted Lenin about Kornilov and Kerensky? He should read it again.
Last edited by OP-Bagration on 03 Mar 2014, 20:10, edited 1 time in total.
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"Fishing is part of agriculture" Gred
"Loz, you are like me" Yami
"I am one of the better read Marxists on this site" Gred
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Soviet cogitations: 4510
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 07 Oct 2004, 22:04
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Resident Soviet
Post 03 Mar 2014, 18:41
I wonder sometimes what the situation would have been like if actual fascists hadn't played such a strong role in the protest, and then in the formation of the government. I definitely don't think that the Russian reaction would have been so strong in that case, and probably would have amounted to something akin to 2004. I've heard reports of Merkel saying she felt that Putin may be out of touch with reality, but really it seems to me that it's some of the West's politicians that are out of touch with reality, i.e. those that didn't pay for and train the armed wing of the opposition. They played their hand too strongly here, and got this escalation as a result. What's maddening, but understandable, is this talk about this being Munich all over again, as if Russia is the bad guy. Russia too has been biased in its accounts of the events, without much talk of Yanukovich's corruption, and few mentions of the police brutality against students that really seemed to encourage the protesters before the armed bands showed up. Still, they haven't been so ballsy as to ignore these issues completely, while Western media continues to ignore the deaths of policemen, the views and details of the members of the far right who have gained cabinet appointments, etc. The role of information, misinformation and lack of information is very reminiscent of Cold War era information wars.
"The thing about capitalism is that it sounds awful on paper and is horrendous in practice. Communism sounds wonderful on paper and when it was put into practice it was done pretty well for what they had to work with." -MiG
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 22 Oct 2004, 15:15
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Politburo
Post 03 Mar 2014, 20:01
Who is out of touch with reality? I would say these guys. Earlier, Merkel's foreign secretary was also there. All these EU figures whipped up the crowd like true demagogues (at home, they are only capable of technocratic babble), making promises that are not theirs to make, and that aren't realistic anyway.

The Hitler analogy only works in the shallowest possible sense: "Oh hai, here is a country invading a region of a smaller country because of the minority there. You know who also did that?" Of course, people who lack content always concentrate on the form. That's easier. It's the same with the people who go on about the "violation of Ukraine's sovereignty" while completely ignoring the big elephant in the room, that there has been a coup that half of the population has zero interest in, and in fact considers especially threatening.

The Hitler analogy would have worked if the Czechoslovakian government in 1938 suddenly had a coup in the capital city explicitly aimed at installing an anti-German and anti-Sudeten German regime. But what actually happened was that the Czechoslovaks made constant concessions to Henlein and Hitler, that they lost the Sudetenland anyway, and that it was all part of a plot to annex all of Czechoslovakia anyway. Putin obviously has no intention of annexing all of Ukraine, and even now it remains to be seen if he'll get anything more than an autonomous Crimea.

To some extent, OP's comparison actually works better in terms of what communists can realistically do. Fascism in practice is the crushing of any nucleus of a class movement. People may say ugly things about the KPU's policy towards Yanukovych (it's easy to talk, but they are the ones working in a country where the other side basically wants to kill them), but it seems to me that they correctly recognised under what circumstances they actually stood a chance. With fascism, there is nothing, just death. Bourgeois democracy, if flawed, if corrupt, if dominated by Russian interests, at least gives a fighting chance. The Roosevelt analogy works in the sense that, whatever you might think about Roosevelt or his interests, he did at least deliver trucks, spam, air power, and eventually a second front.
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Soviet cogitations: 589
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 07 Dec 2013, 14:24
Ideology: Democratic Socialism
Unperson
Post 04 Mar 2014, 10:34
A lone voice of sanity...

http://www.aitrus.info/node/3607

Here it is, In English:

War on War! Declaration of Internationalists in Connection with the Threat of War in Ukraine
War on war! Not a single drop of blood for ‘the nation’!
The struggle for power among the oligarchic clans of Ukraine threatens to escalate into an international military conflict. Russian capitalism intends to take advantage of the redivision of Ukrainian state power in order to achieve its long-established imperial and expansionist ambitions in Crimea and Eastern Ukraine, where it has solid economic, financial, and political interests.
On the threshold of the next phase of the economic crisis in Russia, the ruling regime is inciting Russian nationalism in an attempt to divert the attention of working people away from growing socioeconomic problems, their miserable wages and pensions, and the dismantling of affordable healthcare, education, and other social services. Amid the din of nationalist and bellicose rhetoric it is easier to complete the formation of a corporate authoritarian state based on reactionary values and repressive policies.
In Ukraine an extremely acute economic and political crisis led to an intensification of the struggle between ‘old’ and ‘new’ oligarchic clans. The ‘old’ clans used various forces, including paramilitary ultra-rightist and ultra-nationalist formations, to carry out a coup d’état in Kiev. The political elite of Crimea and Eastern Ukraine do not intend to share their power and property with the latest rulers in Kiev and are seeking assistance from the Russian state. Both sides are resorting to unrestrained nationalist hysteria—Ukrainian and Russian, respectively. Armed clashes are taking place. Blood is being shed. The Western powers have their own interests and ambitions; their intervention in the conflict may lead to World War Three.
As usual, the warring cliques of our masters force us—ordinary people, whether wage workers, unemployed, students or pensioners—to fight for their interests. Intoxicating us with the narcotic drug of nationalism, they set us against one another and make us forget our real needs and interests. Their ‘nations’ are no business of ours. We have much more vital and pressing problems to deal with—how to make ends meet under the system that they have established in order to enslave and exploit us.
Don’t get carried away by the nationalist hysteria! To hell with their states and ‘nations’ with their flags and anthems! This is not our war, and we should not take part in it and pay with our blood for their palaces, bank accounts and state offices. And if our masters in Moscow, Kiev, Lvov, Kharkov, Donetsk and Simferopol start it, our duty is to resist by all available means!
Down with war between peoples! Down with peace between classes!
Signed by:
Russian Section of the International Workers’ Association
Internationalists of Ukraine, Russia, Moldova, Israel, Lithuania, Romania and Poland
Federation of Anarchists of Moldova
Fraction of Revolutionary Socialism (Ukraine)
The declaration is open to new signatories.
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Soviet cogitations: 9409
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 19 Mar 2005, 20:08
Embalmed
Post 05 Mar 2014, 15:30
Well, since the Ukrainian army seems to be mostly starving conscripts with rusted AKs and second-hand uniforms (yeah, I'm exaggerating, a little bit) who are generally okay with defecting (interview with a soldier of a base in Crimea that defected), the Ukrainian government seems to have taken a liking to hiring private military contractors although these guys are also useless in a real war. This video is from Donetsk, where they are defending their oligarch governor or something from the crowd of Antimaidan protesters.
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"Bleh, i don't even know what i'm arguing for. What a stupid rant. Disregard what i wrote." - Loz
"Every time is gyros time" - Stalinista
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 29 Sep 2011, 13:51
Ideology: Democratic Socialism
Party Member
Post 05 Mar 2014, 16:04
The people I stay in contact with in the Ukraine tell me that the nation wide mobilization has been a complete failure. They tell me that when the recruitment offices call homes to get in contact with potential recruits who are fit for service, the relatives or mostly their mothers would simply say that they aren't around and would hang up. I've heard that they were able to recruit only 1% of the reserves.
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The great art of life is sensation, to feel that you exist, even in pain.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 19 Mar 2005, 20:08
Embalmed
Post 09 Mar 2014, 14:43
This is just sad: due to chronic lack of funding and new budget cuts undercutting (hah!) the Ukrainian military ability to do anything even when it comes to buying fuel for their rusty buckets, the Ukrainian Ministry of Defense has set up a donation bin with separate accounts for medical supplies (!) and "material-technical supplies."

You would think they would continue the Ukrainian army's proud tradition of selling off in-service weapons to arms dealers who resell them to embargoed third world countries, but apparently they started doing that less when it turned out that Yuschenko was selling off currently active air defense systems to Georgia...

Though one theory about the stockpiles of "Igla" shoulder-fired AA rocket launchers (one of the top sellers even among legal exports) that went "missing" around February 20-22 is that they did not actually fall in the hands of Right Sector militants, but were sold off to a third country by an enterprising base commander.
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"Bleh, i don't even know what i'm arguing for. What a stupid rant. Disregard what i wrote." - Loz
"Every time is gyros time" - Stalinista
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Soviet cogitations: 417
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 15 Nov 2012, 01:18
Komsomol
Post 13 Mar 2014, 03:24
Time for the maidan govt to open a Yandex wallet for donations
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 19 Mar 2005, 20:08
Embalmed
Post 13 Mar 2014, 07:45
http://mytaganrog.com/article/cherez-ro ... v-taganrog

The tanks are coming! Op-B is so close to winning this thread right now!

Edit:
sans-culotte wrote:
Time for the maidan govt to open a Yandex wallet for donations


It seems that the pleas have somewhat helped:

Department of Defense (DoD) personnel will organize a Humanitarian Assistance Planning Conference with the Ukrainian Armed Forces. DoD will provide Meals Ready to Eat (MREs) to the Ukrainian Armed Forces.

Also, according to the Ukrainian Minister of Defense Igor' Tenyukh:

- Of 41,000 people in the ground forces, 6,000 are "actually combat-ready."
- The number of crews of armored vehicles ready to execute designated tasks is no more than 20%
- Over 70% of tanks of the ground forces are obsolete Sovet-made T-64's in use for 30 years or more
- The battle equipment of this machinery of these armored vehicles "does not conform to requirements of modern armaments, requires replacement and considerable modernization"

- Fuel and motor oil for the training of mechanics, drivers and crews has not been apportioned in the last two years, causing them to train in the vehicle yards without going to training grounds.
- In the air force and navy, of 507 combat aircraft and 121 attack helicopters, only 15% are functional and able to fly.
- In the past 3 years, fuel for training has been apportioned based on the residual principle, causing the pilots of combat aviation to fly an average of 4 hours in 2013.
- As of March 1, only 4 ships are battle-capable, and they are unable of performing "any actions that can be a threat to the Black Sea Fleet."
(Also, except for the frigate Hetman Sahaydachniy which is currently docked in Odessa and is apparently facing rising desertion rates, the other three ships are currently blocked from carrying out their functions by the Black Sea Fleet and the unmarked Russian troops there)

- As a result of the ban on air defense missile system tests after a missile shot down an airliner in 2001, the share of servicemen in air defense divisions who have theoretical knowledge and practical familiarity with the systems is no more than 10%.
- The missiles of S-300P and S-200V systems have served beyond their intended term of use, and require modernization to prolong their use or replacement with new ones, which are currently only produced in Russia.
- The acting minister considers BM-27 Uragan and BM-30 Smerch multiple rocket launchers the only thing capable of defeating Crimean self-defense forces, but due to the extremely low level of training of their crews, there is a "high probability of inaccurate targeting" and a "possibility of the death of a considerable number of civillians."

So basically, Ukraine doesn't have a military.
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"Bleh, i don't even know what i'm arguing for. What a stupid rant. Disregard what i wrote." - Loz
"Every time is gyros time" - Stalinista
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 19 Mar 2005, 20:08
Embalmed
Post 13 Mar 2014, 20:59
I'm going to make this a new item as I can't stretch the post above out forever. Ukraine has now created a paramilitary "national guard" for the right-wing militias and thugs to become part of the military. It's unclear how they will feed, clothe and house them, so I assume it will just be a body that delivers state-sanctioned violence on internal dissent and enjoys some official support when it comes to logistics and weapons. So kind of like Iran's Revolutionary Guard.

Their other purpose, other than beating up/killing people who wave Russian flags seems to be "border protection" though I'm not sure how they will do that, having no training in the use of tanks and armored vehicles, and no tanks and armored vehicles for them to play with in the first place. The only thing I can think of is demoralizing the enemy through human wave attacks, to complete the parallel with Iran's Revolutionary Guard and its role in the Iran-Iraq war.
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"Bleh, i don't even know what i'm arguing for. What a stupid rant. Disregard what i wrote." - Loz
"Every time is gyros time" - Stalinista
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Soviet cogitations: 417
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 15 Nov 2012, 01:18
Komsomol
Post 14 Mar 2014, 02:06
Hilarious quotes from a "K"PU deputy whose business has been nationalised by the maidan piglets.
"better to burn it down than to let some bastards use the result of my labours"
"that was the problem with 1917. Because these types of guys turned up, and said that there should be no rich people"
"I won't let anyone take anything!"
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 19 Mar 2005, 20:08
Embalmed
Post 14 Mar 2014, 04:14
I mean expropriations are all good and well, but in the case of the Ukraine they will either be handed over to other businessmen/oligarchs or nationalized and then privatized to other businessmen/oligarchs. Just because some Banderaites decide to take over a rented office and turn it into their pigsty doesn't mean that any sort of real redistribution of property is taking place. The current bizarre Ukrainian "government" where the Maidan seems to have a veto on all executive branch appointments and pretty much any policy is just setting a precedent where Right Sector or "Warriors of Narnia" or just armed thugs with no clear ideology are allowed to take over your workplace, the grocery store where you buy Doshirak or whatever they eat in Ukraine nowadays, your building's courtyard, or lobby, or maybe even your apartment, and no one from the state will lay a finger on them.
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"Bleh, i don't even know what i'm arguing for. What a stupid rant. Disregard what i wrote." - Loz
"Every time is gyros time" - Stalinista
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Soviet cogitations: 417
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 15 Nov 2012, 01:18
Komsomol
Post 14 Mar 2014, 14:46
Obviously, but guess what's hilarious? It's that she would be oinking the same things if it were a worker's soviet taking over her business, hence she actually compares the piglets with 1917.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Aug 2010, 14:21
Party Bureaucrat
Post 14 Mar 2014, 16:20
So "Чтобы не было богатых" stands for "there should be no rich people"?
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"Fishing is part of agriculture" Gred
"Loz, you are like me" Yami
"I am one of the better read Marxists on this site" Gred
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Soviet cogitations: 417
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 15 Nov 2012, 01:18
Komsomol
Post 14 Mar 2014, 17:31
Aye
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Sep 2006, 22:05
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Philosophized
Post 14 Mar 2014, 19:58
The way wiki puts it she's an independent who allied with the Party bloc rather than being an actual member.
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Soviet cogitations: 2298
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Aug 2010, 14:21
Party Bureaucrat
Post 14 Mar 2014, 23:12
It's coming! It's coming!

Russia Says It Took Down a U.S. Drone Over Crimea

http://www.thewire.com/global/2014/03/russia-claims-it-took-down-us-drone/359197/
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"Fishing is part of agriculture" Gred
"Loz, you are like me" Yami
"I am one of the better read Marxists on this site" Gred
User avatar
Soviet cogitations: 6211
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 04 Aug 2004, 20:49
Ideology: Democratic Socialism
Embalmed
Post 14 Mar 2014, 23:42
Would you like some clean bedsheets?
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"Phil Spector is haunting Europe" -Dr. Karl H. Marx
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