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Do you support Scottish independence?

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Do you support Scottish independence?

Yes, an independent Scotland will be a socialist ‘state’
6
16%
No, an independent Scotland will just be another capitalist country.
17
46%
Other, please state.
14
38%
 
Total votes : 37
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 12 Jun 2006, 02:14
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Politburo
Post 12 Mar 2014, 23:45
I'd support anything that weakens the british crown.
Go Scotland!


"Where Argentina goes, Latin America will go".
Leonid Brezhnev

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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 30 Aug 2008, 18:12
Party Member
Post 13 Mar 2014, 00:17
Quote:
The Irish and the Scottish are the same case, they are both Celtic nations that have had their culture stripped and taken away from them by the British. You obviously haven't studied enough history of the Celtic isles and the Anglo imperialist machine.


Quote:
The lowlanders current culture is a result of English influence in that area. Sharing a border with England and the time that Scotland has been under British rule has caused them to lose most of their identity. The lowlanders are like the Northern Irish which have had most of their culture stolen from them by the British. Its like putting a ice cube in a hot cup of water, over time the ice cube is going to lose its shape and dissolve. Its called cultural assimilation search it up as you have no clue on the Celtic struggle against the Anglo people's attempts at killing the Celtic culture.


Nations are a bourgeois concept. Why do you subscribe to them? Why defend a bourgeois tool of division and manipulation?

Quote:
I'd support anything that weakens the british crown.
Go Scotland!


Weakening British capitalism is fine so long as it strengthens socialism. In this instance British capitalism would be weakened while Scottish capitalism would be strengthened. If the working class lose out then it should be a no-brainer which side you are on.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 04 Feb 2013, 06:55
Ideology: Democratic Socialism
Pioneer
Post 13 Mar 2014, 01:19
gRed Britain wrote:
Nations are a bourgeois concept. Why do you subscribe to them? Why defend a bourgeois tool of division and manipulation?


I was speaking about culture. Did you even bother to read my arguments?
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Oct 2007, 15:55
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
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Post 13 Mar 2014, 01:29
Eire wrote:
The Irish and the Scottish are the same case, they are both Celtic nations that have had their culture stripped and taken away from them by the British. You obviously haven't studied enough history of the Celtic isles and the Anglo imperialist machine.

Similar cultures doesn't necessarily equate to a similar history. Scotland was the epicenter of its own enlightenment period, which was influential beyond its borders. Scotland was also an epicenter of British industry. Glasgow was renown for shipbuilding along the River Clyde. In comparison, Ireland was mostly agricultural with some capacity in the textile industry. Any political/nationalist activity by the Irish earned them a one way ticket to Australia. The Brits didn't bother to intervene during the famine and instead relied on donations from abroad during leaving a million Irish to die. Millions more would emigrate to America and the colonies as a result of British maltreatment and poverty in Ireland.

Why wasn't there a Scottish rebellion as was there an Irish one during the First World War? The Scots were dying in the trenches for an Empire that was mostly ruled by the English. The Scots had their own fair share throughout Union history, there were Scottish PM's (Ramsay MacDonald, Gordon Brown).
We have beaten you to the moon, but you have beaten us in sausage making.- Nikita Khrushchev
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 04 Aug 2004, 20:49
Ideology: Democratic Socialism
Embalmed
Post 13 Mar 2014, 15:25
Tony Blair was Scottish too.

I also don't quite understand this strange mythologised account of Scottish history you're coming up with Eire, it's really quite fun to read being that it has absolutely no basis at all. The Scottish were willing partners, indeed some of the most successful industrialists and slavers were Scottish. This "gaelic culture" thing seems to be a nonsense based on the popular conception of English v Scottish. I remember reading that James VI/I enjoyed pushing aside Gaelic and establishing Scots or English as the preferred national language. The history of it goes deeper than this rubbish "English v Scottish" lark - there were deeply religious and cultural reasons behind Anglicisation.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 18 Apr 2010, 04:44
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Philosophized
Post 13 Mar 2014, 15:37
Erichs_Pastry_Chef wrote:
Tony Blair was Scottish too. The Scottish were willing partners, indeed some of the most successful industrialists and slavers were Scottish.

One of the Protestants' most cherished hymns, "Amazing Grace", was written by an allegedly "reformed" Scottish slave ship captain. And for every Irishman that landed in the North and ended up in the Union ranks a la "Gangs Of New York", there were plenty of Confederate officers and slave holders of Scottish ancestry. That, to me, is the biggest historical distinction between the two.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 30 Aug 2008, 18:12
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Post 13 Mar 2014, 20:24
Quote:
I was speaking about culture. Did you even bother to read my arguments?


When you start talking about Irish, Scottish and Celtic culture, you're talking about attributes of the nation. You are being distracted by bourgeois tools of division.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 04 Aug 2004, 20:49
Ideology: Democratic Socialism
Embalmed
Post 13 Mar 2014, 20:42
I should probably reiterate that socialism is not on the agenda with this referrendum at all, there is no way that it could be spun in such a way to make that argument.

[quote=gRed]Weakening British capitalism is fine so long as it strengthens socialism. In this instance British capitalism would be weakened while Scottish capitalism would be strengthened. If the working class lose out then it should be a no-brainer which side you are on.[/quote]

That's the whole thing in a nutshell.
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"Phil Spector is haunting Europe" -Dr. Karl H. Marx
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 04 Feb 2013, 06:55
Ideology: Democratic Socialism
Pioneer
Post 14 Mar 2014, 02:50
Soviet192491 wrote:
Similar cultures doesn't necessarily equate to a similar history. Scotland was the epicenter of its own enlightenment period, which was influential beyond its borders. Scotland was also an epicenter of British industry. Glasgow was renown for shipbuilding along the River Clyde. In comparison, Ireland was mostly agricultural with some capacity in the textile industry. Any political/nationalist activity by the Irish earned them a one way ticket to Australia. The Brits didn't bother to intervene during the famine and instead relied on donations from abroad during leaving a million Irish to die. Millions more would emigrate to America and the colonies as a result of British maltreatment and poverty in Ireland.

Why wasn't there a Scottish rebellion as was there an Irish one during the First World War? The Scots were dying in the trenches for an Empire that was mostly ruled by the English. The Scots had their own fair share throughout Union history, there were Scottish PM's (Ramsay MacDonald, Gordon Brown).


The history is the same, the Anglo's drive their military right into Scotland/Ireland take away their culture and identity. You're regressive arrangements are absolutely disgusting, if you call yourself a socialist then you are not one. The culture damage has weaken most Scots today and like you said, most Scots were in the trenches not at home. Would you like a rebellion with weak people? No.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 04 Feb 2013, 06:55
Ideology: Democratic Socialism
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Post 14 Mar 2014, 02:52
gRed Britain wrote:
When you start talking about Irish, Scottish and Celtic culture, you're talking about attributes of the nation. You are being distracted by bourgeois tools of division.


How dense are you? How the frag am I distracted by a tool of division. Or do you just not like what I'm saying? Do you still love your Queenie? Do you love your Anglo dominance of Celtic land? I think you are distracted by bourgeois tools of patriotism.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Oct 2007, 15:55
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
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Post 14 Mar 2014, 03:18
Eire wrote:
The history is the same, the Anglo's drive their military right into Scotland/Ireland take away their culture and identity. You're regressive arrangements are absolutely disgusting, if you call yourself a socialist then you are not one. The culture damage has weaken most Scots today and like you said, most Scots were in the trenches not at home. Would you like a rebellion with weak people? No.

So kilts, bagpipes, golf, haggis, Presbyterianism, etc. is a result of the English suppressing Scottish culture and replacing it with their own? Most Scots had no need to rebel for they reaped benefits of staying within the Union and were not repressed like the Irish. If the Scots were indeed repressed think back to all the other peoples of Europe who were indeed repressed and rebelled. Your arguments lack any logic.

Eire wrote:
Do you love your Anglo dominance of Celtic land? I think you are distracted by bourgeois tools of patriotism.

Why does it matter? There is Arab dominance of Berber land, American dominance of Native land, Japanese dominance of Ainu land. The Scots already have their own fair share in UK politics. If Scotland were to gain independence it would benefit them no more, no less than if they had stayed within the United Kingdom.
We have beaten you to the moon, but you have beaten us in sausage making.- Nikita Khrushchev
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 04 Aug 2004, 20:49
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Embalmed
Post 14 Mar 2014, 12:37
In other words, why didn't Scotland experience an uprising in 1848?
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"Phil Spector is haunting Europe" -Dr. Karl H. Marx
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 22 Oct 2004, 15:15
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Politburo
Post 14 Mar 2014, 14:17
I would actually be a bit more sympathetic to this general idea of civic nationalism, of weakening powerful imperialist states like the UK. Why not weaken one of the stronger links in the chain a bit? Hell, even the weaker ones: if Catalunya gets its independence, then that opens new opportunities.

But the Scottish independence proposal currently on the table doesn't really do that at all. In fact, it manages to piss everyone off by promising things that the Scottish government is in no position to promise: currency, EU, NATO, etc. All the authorities responsible for these can now simply say "don't get your hopes up", that Salmond is talking out of his arse, etc. And of course that is exactly what they have done. The whole pound-queen-EU-NATO thing was intended for those worried about instability, and now that strategy is a failure too. So when Eire asks British posters whether they "love their queenie" (nice, mature), maybe he should take it to the SNP, who want to keep the monarchy.

I'm also very curious about the catalogue of horrible oppressions currently being perpetrated against the "Celtic nation" (?) of Scotland. You would have to go all the way back to the 18th and 19th centuries, with the worst crimes coming after the defeat of the Jacobite movement. By the way, no doubt everything would be fine and dandy for the Scots if the BRITISH monarch were a Stuart, right guys? Measures like the oppression of Highland culture, the Highland Clearances, the executions and deportations, etc. were all horrific crimes, no doubt about that, even though these were just the methods that every imperialist state used against rebellious populaces. And yes, the enforcement of English in education is much the same: a criminal promotion of monoculture, but one that was dominant all over Europe in the 19th century.

In any case, the story doesn't end there: the fact of the matter is that, in the same period, a large part of Scotland became an integral part of the British Empire, with the prosperity of the cities, the Scottish Enlightenment, and so on. Since the 19th century, we've seen Romanticism, the return of tartan and other symbols promoted by the British royal family, etc. What is marketed to tourists as Scottish culture today was established at the height of the British Empire. In the 20th century, Scotland developed a proud labour tradition that was not particularly Scottish nationalist to my knowledge. Maybe the Clydesiders were evil Anglo invaders as well? They didn't seem to use Gaelic... Anyone promoting a class-free cultural nationalism after all this is misrepresenting the issue.

Because that's the thing, isn't it? If you want to talk about the independence of the "Celtic nation" from evil Anglo imperialism, then you should support Highlands independence rather than Scottish independence, and obviously that suddenly becomes a lot less economically attractive. I can sympathise with people who just support Scottish independence for some pragmatic reason, but when people get into this whole "Angles vs Celts", this whole Braveheart nationalism, then they've got no clue what they're talking about.

What could you realistically do to counteract the massive influence of English over the past half millennium, even if we agree that that influence has often been oppressive and imperialistic? Purge all English and Scots speakers? Make Gaelic the only legal language? Of course not. The fact is that there is now devolution, there is a Scottish government consisting solely of the Scottish National Party. Gaelic is being promoted towards a largely apathetic populace, including the insistence on using Gaelic place names on road signs for places where many people don't identify with it. Of course it's the right thing to do to try to preserve indigenous languages and traditions, but what more can you realistically do? Whatever else anyone may think, to frame this as an Anglo-Saxons vs Celts thing is ridiculous.

As far as I can see, the main oppression being perpetrated against Scotland at the moment is the UK government saying: "Well, you can have your referendum, but if you secede, we won't simply let you use our currency, monarchy, and membership of international organisations". If a bottom-up radical independence movement arose that said, "You can keep them, frag you", then I would be all for it, but that's clearly not what is happening today.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 30 Aug 2008, 18:12
Party Member
Post 14 Mar 2014, 19:43
Quote:
How dense are you? How the frag am I distracted by a tool of division. Or do you just not like what I'm saying?


The fact that you keep harping on about 'national/cultural oppression' without ever mentioning the working class in any of your rantings reveals your bourgeois position.

Let me ask you a question:
Suppose the whole of Britain and Northern Ireland (but not the Republic of Ireland) underwent a socialist revolution tomorrow. What would your position then be on Northern Ireland?

Quote:
Do you still love your Queenie?


No and I've never said I do.

Quote:
Do you love your Anglo dominance of Celtic land?


How is there Anglo dominance? Scots, Welsh, Northern Irish, Cornish and Manx people are all able to practise their culture if they want to. Just because they all speak English doesn't mean they are culturally oppressed.

Quote:
I think you are distracted by bourgeois tools of patriotism.


Not in the slightest. I don't care about "Britain/England" as a bourgeois ideal.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 01 Nov 2003, 13:17
Ideology: Other
Forum Commissar
Post 15 Mar 2014, 01:10
Eire wrote:
The lowlanders current culture is a result of English influence in that area. Sharing a border with England and the time that Scotland has been under British rule has caused them to lose most of their identity. The lowlanders are like the Northern Irish which have had most of their culture stolen from them by the British. Its like putting a ice cube in a hot cup of water, over time the ice cube is going to lose its shape and dissolve. Its called cultural assimilation search it up as you have no clue on the Celtic struggle against the Anglo people's attempts at killing the Celtic culture.


Are you telling me that lowlanders are ethnically Celtic? When did they become assimilated into Anglo culture? There was already a distinct difference between lowland and highland cultures before Scotland was ruled by England.

Or are you saying that the lowlanders who speak English are just descendent's of English imperialists?
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 12 Jun 2011, 15:14
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Pioneer
Post 06 Apr 2014, 21:10
Comrade Gulper wrote:
...there were plenty of Confederate officers and slave holders of Scottish ancestry. That, to me, is the biggest historical distinction between the two.

I know, and that was an inspiration of the design of the Confederate military flag. http://www.theledger.com/article/20060122/news/601220429 It has a Cross of St. Andrew design, like the Scottish flag does. See,
Image
-Confederate flag,
Image
- Scottish flag. But there were Scot-Irish whom fought on the side of the North too. Such as my one ancestor, Stephen Duncan Burns. Plus, as to Scottish independence, the Scottish National Party favourscivic nationalism, rather than ethnic nationalism. So racial chauvinism should not be a factor.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 27 Jan 2014, 04:51
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Pioneer
Post 03 May 2014, 03:13
That was an interesting point about the confederate flag - I had not made that connection, obvious now it is mentioned.

As the referendum gets nearer I'm finding my opinion shifting. Self-determination means a lot. I have been watching some pro-Yes "information films" - one of the claims made is that over the past 30 years at least, removing the Scottish results from General Elections would not have altered which parties formed a Westminster Government one jot.

Also, I am thinking about how smaller countries can be more politically adventurous - while it may not be an objective of the vote, or even in the SNPs plans, Scotland is more likely to become socialist through being independant than by remaining part of UK. Pity I don't have a say in the referendum. I'll just have to stay put and champion the Cornish cause. And the Welsh. And Northumberland. And Yorkshire...
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 07 Dec 2013, 14:24
Ideology: Democratic Socialism
Unperson
Post 14 May 2014, 10:35
Why I won’t support it that the SNP are trying to hoodwink the working class in Scotland. They try to tell them that their problems are caused, not by capitalism, but by Westminster and that an independent Scotland will be able to solve these problems. How reactionary! As we all know, the problems of capitalism cannot be solved by a change of government! Anyone that tries to tell the working classes it can no friend of socialism.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 04 Aug 2004, 20:49
Ideology: Democratic Socialism
Embalmed
Post 14 May 2014, 10:40
Again, socialism is not anywhere near the influential discussions being had on what a separate Scotland would look like, much like many of my old lefty friends wanting to vote UKIP simply because they offer a referendum on EU membership when socialism is again absolutely nowhere near the discourse on an EU-free UK.
Socialists who vote yes are pretty much playing into the hands of the SNP though, whether they think the are or not.
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"Phil Spector is haunting Europe" -Dr. Karl H. Marx
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 22 Oct 2004, 15:15
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Politburo
Post 25 Aug 2014, 10:28
I thought I'd bump this, just to remind myself to see the debate tonight. I missed the first one, but apparently they both spent a lot of time dodging the big questions. Surely independence would have been a dead duck already if it hadn't been for the No campaign shooting itself in the foot on a regular basis, but they're so patronising that the actual result may still go beyond the 30-40 percent polled now. In any event, I look forward to the 18th of next month, when the whole farce will finally be over one way or another.
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