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Holocaust Denial

POST REPLY

Should Holocaust Denial be illegal?

Yes
25
42%
No
28
47%
Other
6
10%
 
Total votes : 59
User avatar
Soviet cogitations: 2293
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Aug 2010, 14:21
Party Bureaucrat
Post 10 Jul 2012, 02:38
Quote:
Perhaps mistakenly, I was under the impression that denying the Holocaust was forbidden, while denying the Armenian genocide was permitted in various European states.

Indeed, the French government wants to forbid the denial of the Armenian genocide.

Quote:
All sides have perpetrated these kinds of things and so we need to acknowledge them all without omission or agendas.

I would feel guilty if I started to denounce the serial rapes practiced by US soldiers on French territory. Not that it was good for repopulating the country.
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"Fishing is part of agriculture" Gred
"Loz, you are like me" Yami
"I am one of the better read Marxists on this site" Gred
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Sep 2006, 22:05
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Philosophized
Post 10 Jul 2012, 02:40
... what?

Voted no only because we can't effectively silence conspiracy theories with heavy-handed bans. Calmly marginalizing them as psychotics or degenerates will suffice. Those who deny the holocaust make fools of themselves, we shouldn't follow suit by taking them seriously.

@shig: They won't stop at our legitimate excesses. They want to ban our symbols, our words, and our history. They aim to use the specter of nazism to ban communism altogether. Remember it's those in power who control dialogue.
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Soviet cogitations: 2293
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Aug 2010, 14:21
Party Bureaucrat
Post 10 Jul 2012, 02:49
Quote:
we can't effectively silence conspiracy theories with heavy-handed bans

It's not a conspiracy theory. It's a Nazi theory. Nazi theories mostly disappeared in 1945, not because of reason and debate, but thanks to guns! If guns were able to do the job, then laws should take over.
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"Fishing is part of agriculture" Gred
"Loz, you are like me" Yami
"I am one of the better read Marxists on this site" Gred
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Soviet cogitations: 4465
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 30 Mar 2010, 01:20
Ideology: None
Forum Commissar
Post 10 Jul 2012, 03:02
OP-Bagration wrote:
I would feel guilty if I started to denounce the serial rapes practiced by US soldiers on French territory.
Maybe, but you're not trying to deny it happened though.

Dagoth Ur wrote:
They won't stop at our legitimate excesses. They want to ban our symbols, our words, and our history. They aim to use the specter of nazism to ban communism altogether. Remember it's those in power who control dialogue.
Well, you wouldn't expect them to fight fair would you.

That's probably why we should oppose holocaust denial being illegal, but support all measures to make it very impractical and undesirable to actually deny these sorts of things.

You have to bear in mind that "they" have this ambivalence where they say they support free speech, but only to the extent which is convenient for them, beyond that they're not very interested in it.

I'm not sure what you're suggesting apart from that... Do I realize that they are trying to smother us? Sure!

edit:
OP-Bagration wrote:
Nazi theories mostly disappeared in 1945, not because of reason and debate, but thanks to guns!
Have you heard of this new thing called "the Internet"?
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Soviet cogitations: 14444
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Sep 2006, 22:05
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Philosophized
Post 10 Jul 2012, 03:19
lol

@OP-B: Nazism wasn't illegal when we used guns against it. Hence we don't need law just guns.
Also it being a nazi conspiracy theory doesn't change that it is a conspiracy theory. Paranoia isn't solved through legislation.
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Loz
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 06 Dec 2009, 23:17
Philosophized
Post 10 Jul 2012, 22:11
I don't like this "hate speech" in general.
What is communism if not hate speech? Why would the bourgeoisie not forbid... posters of Stalin or the hammer and sickle as "hate symbols"? Of course we have to fight against this.
This censorship, IMO, can only harm the communists.

Quote:
To be fair, where those crimes have actually occurred I think we might just have to cop it.

What crimes?
Some saboteurs were shot, and some enemies of the people shot innocent citizens. Not to mention the "Holodomor" et cetera.
The last thing i want is to be put in jail for "denying communist crimes", that is, saying the truth from, of course, a class point of view.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 30 Mar 2010, 01:20
Ideology: None
Forum Commissar
Post 11 Jul 2012, 02:17
Loz wrote:
I don't like this "hate speech" in general.
What is communism if not hate speech? Why would the bourgeoisie not forbid... posters of Stalin or the hammer and sickle as "hate symbols"? Of course we have to fight against this.
This censorship, IMO, can only harm the communists.

Of course they may want to try this method of silencing Communism.

Quote:
Hate speech is a communication that carries no meaning other than the expression of hatred for some group, especially in circumstances in which the communication is likely to provoke violence. It is an incitement to hatred primarily against a group of persons defined in terms of race, ethnicity, national origin, gender, religion, sexual orientation, and the like. Hate speech can be any form of expression regarded as offensive to racial, ethnic and religious groups and other discrete minorities or to women.

http://definitions.uslegal.com/h/hate-speech/

or

wiki wrote:
Hate speech is, outside the law, any communication that vilifies a person or a group on the basis of race, color, ethnicity, gender, disability, sexual orientation, nationality, religion, or other characteristic

Personally, I don't have a problem with stuff like this being restricted. Free speech is a crummy "ideal" which even liberals are ambivalent about.

Communism is Love Speech anyway, not hate speech.


Loz wrote:
What crimes?
Exactly. Deny everything!
Loz
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 06 Dec 2009, 23:17
Philosophized
Post 11 Jul 2012, 16:56
Quote:
Personally, I don't have a problem with stuff like this being restricted. Free speech is a crummy "ideal" which even liberals are ambivalent about.

Workers fought for decades to get what we have today in the West. We can talk about stuff on S-E without having to fear some secret service getting us, which is still a right many peoples ( the Chinese for example) don't have.

Quote:
Of course they may want to try this method of silencing Communism.

They're already trying, see the Wiki-quotes i posted here previously.

We don't need "hate speech" laws to combat and expose neo-Nazis and the like.
What did that ever achieve? In Germany Nazis can't walk around with swastikas shouting their slogans, but that's it. There are still Nazis marching around, but with Iron Crosses instead of swastikas.

Quote:
Exactly. Deny everything!

I'm not going to buy into "communist crimes" propaganda.
Soviet cogitations: 2051
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 24 Jun 2011, 08:37
Party Bureaucrat
Post 15 Jul 2012, 06:43
It's only wrong denying a genocide if you are on the wrong side of history.

The Turks, American settlers and Japanese got off free, while the Germans did not.
Soviet America is Free America!

Under communism, there is no freedom; you are not free to live in poverty, be homeless, to be without an education, to starve, or to be without a job
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Aug 2010, 14:21
Party Bureaucrat
Post 19 Jul 2012, 01:19
Workers fought for their right to free speech. The interest of the bourgeoisie is to have people think in absolute terms. We struggle for this right to free speech for the workers, we will continue to struggle for it. However, we don't say that we support free speech in general. I don't support free speech for the oppressors! As long as they represent a threat to our liberties and to people's power, we will have to censure them severely.
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"Fishing is part of agriculture" Gred
"Loz, you are like me" Yami
"I am one of the better read Marxists on this site" Gred
Soviet cogitations: 2407
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 01 Nov 2003, 13:17
Ideology: Other
Forum Commissar
Post 21 Jul 2012, 15:19
No

Legally there should be no restrictions because it should not be illegal to discuss history. However socially it should be unacceptable to question the holocaust as it was a crime of satanic barbarism made by mechanical social Darwinists. Also as others have said the other victims such as Slavs and other peoples should also not be forgotten either.
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Soviet cogitations: 301
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Jun 2004, 17:01
Komsomol
Post 19 Aug 2012, 13:21
Yes. I think hate crimes should be punished.

Obviously only a portion of Holocaust Deniers should be punished. Like authors, demonstrators outside Synagogues, etc, where the circumstances are clear the culprit is trying to provoke a reaction.
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Soviet cogitations: 56
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 14 May 2013, 19:04
Ideology: Maoist
Pioneer
Post 16 May 2013, 19:06
I already said yes, but I do believe there are cases in which it should not.
Soviet cogitations: 78
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 14 Nov 2014, 02:42
Pioneer
Post 18 Nov 2014, 21:16
I certainly think it should be illegal, but I also think we need to teach the subject a lot better in our schools. what I mean by that is we need to recognize that other people than Jews were killed, particularly the gypsies. they were the second group that Hitler wanted to wipe completely from the planet. percentage of their population, he got more of them than he did us. although 6 million of us went, it needs to be recognized that there were 5 million other victims of the Holocaust. and about a million and a half of those were gypsies. which, given their numbers was an extremely high percentage of them.
Loz
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 06 Dec 2009, 23:17
Philosophized
Post 18 Nov 2014, 21:21
Nazi terror killed more than 10 million civilians in the USSR alone, most of whom weren't Jewish.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 19 Mar 2005, 20:08
Embalmed
Post 18 Nov 2014, 21:24
Don't forget the homosexuals, not only were they put in camps, but other people in the camps also gave them a hard time for being gay.
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"Bleh, i don't even know what i'm arguing for. What a stupid rant. Disregard what i wrote." - Loz
"Every time is gyros time" - Stalinista
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 04 Aug 2004, 20:49
Ideology: Democratic Socialism
Embalmed
Post 18 Nov 2014, 22:11
Yes. Holocaust denial is a pernicious mask to hide the crimes of fascism and to propose to a new generation of fascists that the Holocaust didn't take place at all. The roughly 12,000,000 who were killed in the Nazi camps alone, not even mentioning the terror wrought by the fascist hordes in Eastern Europe in Poland, Belorussia, Russia, Ukraine, Romania, Bulgaria, the Baltic States and Hungary outside of the camps (Einsatzgruppen and the like)- hell, even in China under the vicious Japanese occupation. Allowing people to completely disregard civilian life in such a brazen, ignorant manner does give confidence to people who are stupid enough to believe in David Irving style conspiracies that "err, it's not possible to kill that many people" when it simply is if you starve a whole demographic out of existence while encircling them in a ring of steel bayonets and barbed wire.

We cannot allow fascists to use any of these fallacious arguments against the mountains of harrowing evidence of the real character and reality of the Nazi regime. It gives them a carte blance to propagate misinformation about the horrors of that ideology by simply saying the Holocaust never happened, allowing them to chat shit about "how Hitler abolished unemployment" and "how Hitler totally transformed German industry" and other specious myths (by the way, unemployment was about the same in the UK as it was in Germany on the eve of WW2).
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"Phil Spector is haunting Europe" -Dr. Karl H. Marx
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Soviet cogitations: 3618
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 22 Oct 2004, 15:15
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Politburo
Post 19 Nov 2014, 18:41
Holocaust denial is usually not some scholarly debate or whatever. It's active hate speech in that the assertion that the Holocaust didn't happen is often followed in the same breath by the desire that it did.
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Soviet cogitations: 33
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 17 Nov 2015, 22:40
Ideology: Maoist
Pioneer
Post 17 Nov 2015, 23:09
I'm wary about making ignorance illegal. You can have that opinion but you should speak of it. Ignorant people shouldn't speak on the thing they are ignorant of. "No investigation - no right to speak" - Mao TseTung
Soviet cogitations: 11
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 18 Jan 2016, 00:46
New Comrade (Say hi & be nice to me!)
Post 21 Jan 2016, 21:31
Loz wrote:
Laws against Holocaust Denial can be (and are) used as justification for new laws and new censorships about "the denial of communist crimes". So that's how it can be used against communism.


Yea, they can toss you in jail in Poland for saying communists did no wrong. Strange world we find ourselves in.
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