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Holocaust Denial

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Should Holocaust Denial be illegal?

Yes
25
42%
No
28
47%
Other
6
10%
 
Total votes : 59
Loz
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 06 Dec 2009, 23:17
Philosophized
Post 08 Jul 2012, 15:40
Should Holocaust Denial be illegal and punishable by law?
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 09 May 2008, 14:59
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Post 08 Jul 2012, 16:44
Being ignorant isn't a crime, nor should it be.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 07 Oct 2004, 22:04
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Post 08 Jul 2012, 17:06
To deny the targeting and killing of Jews by the Nazis should be illegal to anyone with a serious voice in the mass media, the arts, and academia. Given the general knowledge and reach of the idea of the Jewish Holocaust today, I believe that other groups who suffered at the hands of the Nazis should receive much more attention -Slavs especially. It's probably no longer possible in today's world to try to imagine a generalized suffering mass when referring to Nazism's victims (which is what Soviet propaganda tried to do, even if it did point out the particular cruelty dolled out to the Jews). Still, it's inexcusable that the suffering of millions of Slavs, who were exposed to the same kinds of cruelties, even if they were less systematic, aren't more widely recognized. The Cold War legacy is partly to blame for this of course, but I think it goes further -to old and often hidden racial prejudices known in Europe and North America against Slavic people.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 11 Nov 2004, 02:08
Embalmed
Post 08 Jul 2012, 22:39
Ignorance isnt a crime. I welcome any logical, well thought, debate new and old to the topic either to be considered or shot down. Topics such as these should be respected but shouldn't be taboo, and I am afraid that as time goes on and the last memory holders die off you will see a great divergence of opinion surrounding the matter without forum to discuss, without legal protection in many places.

What has always irked me is the fact Jews for lack of a better term, take the spotlight with the overall subject when there requires a greater sharing of it between all groups that were murdered by the Nazi's. Beyond that, the trend of denial will grow over time, it's even happening regarding the killing fields.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 19 Sep 2005, 13:48
Embalmed
Post 09 Jul 2012, 01:52
Quote:
What has always irked me is the fact Jews for lack of a better term, take the spotlight with the overall subject when there requires a greater sharing of it between all groups that were murdered by the Nazi's.


I agree. When I was growing up I was mainly only taught about the atomic bombs and the Holocaust. It wasn't until much later that I learnt about the millions of Soviet civilians who died, and the other atrocities committed by the Nazis throughout Europe. Even more forgotten (in my opinion) are the German victims of the Nazis.

Google routinely gives me denial websites (usually always in the top results) whenever I search for a Holocaust related subject and some of them have made for a curious experience.
Last edited by Szabo on 09 Jul 2012, 10:17, edited 1 time in total.
Now what is this…
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Aug 2010, 14:21
Party Bureaucrat
Post 09 Jul 2012, 04:18
Yes, it should be punished. Unless you are stupid (I'm sure even Justin Bieber knows what the so-called "Holocaust" is) you know that millions of persons died during this war, and many more suffered and are still suffering today. Denying this can't be ignorance, it's a crime. And of course, if you were ignorant of this, how could you deny this?

Also, Holocaust is a Greek term which is not related to Jewish religion or culture. You can say that it may have a link to religion, but I see a better relation with the fact that Nazi were burning people like you were burning animals in classical holocausts. Therefore, you can say that Holocaust isn't merely jewish.
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"Fishing is part of agriculture" Gred
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 15 Nov 2010, 16:48
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Komsomol
Post 09 Jul 2012, 05:03
Should hate speech be legal?

No, under capitalism nor under socialism, especially not under socialism
There is no excuse for denying the holocaust besides the fact that your a -comment removed-.
But I agree, we need to go past the cold war prop and actually look at the full extent of Nazi crimes not just those committed against jews.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 13 Feb 2008, 15:25
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Politburo
Post 09 Jul 2012, 17:22
Being wrong shouldn't be a crime, but Holocaust denial is usually connected to racism and hate speech, which should be a crime in my opinion.
Loz
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 06 Dec 2009, 23:17
Philosophized
Post 09 Jul 2012, 17:28
No, as Indigo said.
Plus, there are already cases where laws against HD were used as justification for laws against "Holodomor denial" or "denial of communist crimes".
I think it's a dangerous precedent that can be used against communism.
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Party Bureaucrat
Post 09 Jul 2012, 18:10
Since the USSR saved the world and many Jews, it can't be used against Communism. On the contrary, a country in which denial of Holocaust is allowed is a country in which Communism is weak, and therefore there is no interest to hide behind bourgeois "liberties".
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Loz
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 06 Dec 2009, 23:17
Philosophized
Post 09 Jul 2012, 18:26
Quote:
Since the USSR saved the world and many Jews, it can't be used against Communism.

Laws against Holocaust Denial can be (and are) used as justification for new laws and new censorships about "the denial of communist crimes". So that's how it can be used against communism.

Quote:
A draft law "On Amendments to the Criminal and the Procedural Criminal Codes of Ukraine" was submitted by President Viktor Yushchenko for consideration by the Ukrainian Parliament. The draft law envisages prosecution for public denial of the Holodomor Famine of 1932–1933 in Ukraine as a fact of genocide of the Ukrainian people, and of the Holocaust as the fact of genocide of the Jewish people. The draft law foresees that public denial as well as production and dissemination of materials denying the above shall be punished by a fine of 100 to 300 untaxed minimum salaries, or imprisonment of up to two years.[74]


Polish Law:
Quote:
Article 1
This Act shall govern:
1. the registration, collection, access, management and use of the documents of the organs of state security created and collected between 22 July 1944 and 31 December 1989, and the documents of the organs of security of the Third Reich and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics concerning:

a) crimes perpetrated against persons of Polish nationality and Polish citizens of other ethnicity, nationalities in the period between 1 September 1939 and 31 December 1989:
- Nazi crimes,
- communist crimes,
- other crimes constituting crimes against peace, crimes against humanity or war crimes



It's not hard to imagine that in near future you might be put in prison for saying that the Soviet Campaign against Cosmopolitans wasn't actually antisemitism.
Last edited by Loz on 09 Jul 2012, 18:39, edited 1 time in total.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 20 Jul 2011, 15:17
Party Member
Post 09 Jul 2012, 18:33
The things that fall under "Holocaust denial" are sort of extreme though, such as questioning the number of people killed. In the case of the Holocaust, we do have lots of proof, but as others have said, I'd be worried similar laws would be enacted for "communist crimes." Such prohibitions on historical inquiry can later set the precedent for the total PC-ification of the social sciences.

I also don't understand why denial of the Armenian genocide is permitted, even by heads of state.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 09 May 2008, 14:59
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Forum Commissar
Post 09 Jul 2012, 19:12
In general, any Holocaust denial is the result of some unsubstantiated conspiracy theory ranging from "the government inflated the numbers to justify actions against Germany and the Nazi Party" to "the Jews made the whole thing up to garner sympathy so their control over world banking would never be questioned". Nobody with enough good sense to avoid irrational hatred of the Jews would buy into such a thing. Just like any conspiracy theory, it's main appeal is to the woefully uninformed, the paranoid, and the hateful who need some kind of rationalization for their prejudice.

There's nothing to be gained in criminalizing it. If anyone with influence professes such a theory and people believe it, that's more an indication of a failure of the society than the danger of the theory itself. Of course, anyone with such influence shouldn't expect to keep it for long.

It's a dangerous precedent in general. Any attempt by a state to overtly dominate the public discourse using state power is doomed to failure, and just fuels the fire of conspiracy.
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Red_Son: Bob Avakian is the Glenn Beck of communism.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 20 Jul 2011, 15:17
Party Member
Post 09 Jul 2012, 19:22
I agree completely with Indigo. We should only have to ban Holocaust denial if we have something to hide. Otherwise, we should be able to refute such claims using scientific and historical evidence.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 14 Jul 2008, 20:01
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Philosophized
Post 09 Jul 2012, 19:37
Quote:
I also don't understand why denial of the Armenian genocide is permitted, even by heads of state.


because nobody has got anything to hide and everybody can refute it using scientific and historical evidence? you just said so yourself.
"Don't know why i'm still surprised with this shit anyway." - Loz
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 20 Jul 2011, 15:17
Party Member
Post 09 Jul 2012, 19:41
lol, what? The point was obviously that there is a double standard.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 11 Nov 2004, 02:08
Embalmed
Post 09 Jul 2012, 22:24
Quote:
because nobody has got anything to hide and everybody can refute it using scientific and historical evidence? you just said so yourself.

Figures the German would make this point.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 14 Jul 2008, 20:01
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Philosophized
Post 10 Jul 2012, 01:03
Quote:
lol, what? The point was obviously that there is a double standard.


Where? Both denials are permitted, most people want to keep it this way.
"Don't know why i'm still surprised with this shit anyway." - Loz
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Aug 2010, 14:21
Party Bureaucrat
Post 10 Jul 2012, 02:07
There is of course a "double standard" between the so-called "Armenian genocide" (the term was created in 1945 to define the Holocaust) and the Holocaust itself. People denying the existence of the Holocaust have to deny the existence of gas chambers, the lists on which you may find the name of your grandparents, and Hitler's intentions. On the contrary, people denying the "Armenian genocide" do not deny that there was actual massacres, or that many people died. They discuss the responsibilites, the nature and the intentions.

The fact is that the Turkish government was victorious, and therefore we have fewer evidences about what happened exactly and who was responsible for the massacres. Therefore it is normal and legitimate that there is debates and differences of opinion.

Moreover, since this happened during the First World War, imperialist powers were heavily involved. It is very difficult to discern the truth in the pack of lies and war propaganda.
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"Fishing is part of agriculture" Gred
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 30 Mar 2010, 01:20
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Forum Commissar
Post 10 Jul 2012, 02:21
I'm not sure whether it should be illegal as such, but it should certainly be the death knell for anybody even remotely connected with academic circles and it should also be red flag marking a person out for investigation on the subject of "hate speech".

An accused person should then be required to defend themselves on "hate speech" charges. Presumption of guilt would put the burden of proof firmly on the accused.

Even if such a person is found to be innocent of hate speech they should probably be enrolled in re-education courses.

Mabool wrote:
Both denials are permitted, most people want to keep it this way.
Perhaps mistakenly, I was under the impression that denying the Holocaust was forbidden, while denying the Armenian genocide was permitted in various European states.

Loz wrote:
I think it's a dangerous precedent that can be used against communism.
To be fair, where those crimes have actually occurred I think we might just have to cop it.
The best thing is just to counter attack with capitalist crimes rather than to try and deny actual communist excesses.

Red Armenian wrote:
There is no excuse for denying the holocaust besides the fact that your a -comment removed-.
But I agree, we need to go past the cold war prop and actually look at the full extent of Nazi crimes not just those committed against jews.
All sides have perpetrated these kinds of things and so we need to acknowledge them all without omission or agendas.
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